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Author Topic: Taking Damage  (Read 6267 times)
Zaij
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« on: August 10, 2009, 04:50:32 am »

The HP system is pretty junk. Most people know this as it's unlikely you're going to get hit by a mace in the face and survive, let alone shrug it off as if nothing happened because you still have 1hp left.

I think a two track system would be better; and by this I mean different modifiers given based off the injury dependant on whether the target was undead or human.

So for zombies you'd have penalties like:

Arm removed: -50% to grapple/defend
Crawler (1 or 2 legs disabled): -75% to bite
On fire: Dead in 3 turns, but +1 to die roll for damage consequence (like bruise might turn into open wound)

and so on.

For humans you'd have similar penalties (movement speed, to hit, etc) and death/zombification to occur only if you're hit in vital areas and lose a critical roll badly.

Of course, this is all speculation because Brian and Annie have given us precious little to go on as we don't know much about the stats and combat systems, but meh. Thought I'd chuck this out there anyway.
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Hector
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« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2009, 06:53:49 am »

It has already been mentioned here.  Might I suggest that further health suggestions find their way there?
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Zaij
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« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2009, 06:58:07 am »

That whole thing is a bit of a mess, wouldn't it be better to shift things around?
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Frost
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« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2009, 08:43:19 am »

Anybody played pnp polish system Neuroshima ? I don't know if it is available outside of poland, but maybe. Neuroshima health mechanics were pretty good and fresh IMO. Basicly, weapons dealt four kinds of wounds: light, medium, heavy and critical and that was modified with characters constitution/strenght stat, ie. if you had 10-14 con - knife dealt light wounds, if higher than 14 - medium wounds. Human resistance was 1 critical wound. Every wound would have a negative modifier to skills and stats if you failed the resistance to pain skillcheck which was made after every wound you've gained. 3 light wounds made 1 medium, 3 medium - 1 heavy, 3 heavy - 1 crit etc. etc. So if you gathered enough wounds to have a critical wound, you were dead or near dead, waiting for medical help. Worse the wound, bigger the negative modifier when failed the skillcheck, and even with a succesful skillcheck with worse wounds, you still had a slightly less negative modifier.

There were also other kinds of wounds, restricted for hand to hand fighting and fire damage but i don't really remember how they worked.
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Vince
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« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2009, 09:08:50 am »

The HP system is pretty junk. Most people know this as it's unlikely you're going to get hit by a mace in the face and survive, let alone shrug it off as if nothing happened because you still have 1hp left.
If that's the goal, proper design can take care of it. For example, in AoD you have aimed attacks. If you target head, you inflict more damage (we use a higher damage range), helmets have less DR than armor (sucks to be you if you don't wear a helmet), and if you score a critical hit, your opponent is knocked out and could be finished easily.
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kronos
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« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2009, 11:47:13 am »

Speaking of taking damage, what about the healing/recovery system?

Will this be another game where using/applying/eating object A magically restores X hit points/repairs broken bones?

Or will there be a system that encourages the conservation and hoarding of medical supplies (e.g., dropping a sidearm in favor of newly discovered painkillers), the necessity of some sort of medical knowhow, and first and foremost an aversion towards any sort of injury (even a stubbed toe)?
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catmorbid
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2009, 06:10:28 am »

This is something most rpg's, and especially crpg's give very little thought beyond the basic hitpoint system. The problem with hitpoints is that they're too abstract. It's however a very simple mechanic, which can work perfectly well even in a realistic setting, if you limit the amount of HP and have extra variables for different wound effects etc.

I would try and approach it from a new perspective, considering every type of attack a wound of some sort. And based on the power of the attack, the severity of the wound would change accordingly. To this you could add damage type, which affects what kind of wound is dealt, armor and hit-locations. Wounds on different hit-locations would affect different functions, in addition to general "pain", thus reducing one's ability to move around after a serious injury etc.

In essence, something similar to what Frost said about the polish rpg, and what many other rpg's use, but way more complex and instead of having rigid leaps between light, medium and heavy wound, the transfer would be more seamless. Kind of hard to explain, without a huge wall of text, but yeah that's what I'd do if I wanted something different and realistic Smile
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Hector
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2009, 09:08:11 am »

Thing is, any wound has the potential to be lethal.  I've heard of perfectly healthy people dying almost instantly from a single gunshot wound to the foot (one that missed the main artery down there).  At the same time I've heard of people being stabbed through the heart in duels who then returned the favour in the few seconds they had left before they collapsed and bled out.  The human body is both more fragile and more durable than any HP system could ever give it credit for, though the one used in GURPS comes moderately close.  HP also tell you exactly how close you are to death; something no one ever knows in real life.  The system used by Deus Ex comes closer, in that it tracks damage to separate body parts, but it still isn't that close.  Hell, the only thing I've seen that does a good job of it is Dwarf Fortress, which would actually be a little too advanced for this game.

Any system they use has to be relatively simple, or else we'll be waiting longer for this game than Duke Nukem Forever.  There are, however, three potential effects from being injured: you bleed, your bones break, and you feel pain.  Pain can be ignored to a certain extent, but broken bones can cause a lot of trouble and nine times out of ten, it'll be the bleeding that kills you.  If one were to track those three things separately and, for the most part, out of the player's view, the health system could be interesting while still being simple enough to be feasible.
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suibhne
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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2009, 11:13:16 am »

I'd like to see some injury modeling, not just static HP (or maybe not even static HP, heh). There could be a few different metrics - general physical condition (energy level or endurance - gauging how physically energetic or exhausted/weakened someone is), and more specific physical statuses (e.g. persistent conditions like asthma; specific issues like damage to limbs - breaks, bruises, etc.). Emotional status would make sense to track, also, but that's not what you're asking here. Wink Basically, I'd really prefer to see some sort of "real" injury modeling - which doesn't mean it has to be realistic at all, but does mean that I'd like to see something other than a totally abstract HP counter. I like the way Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth handled this, albeit in an FPS context.

Could be interesting to also model treatment in a persistent and comprehensive way. You could still keep things pretty abstracted - e.g., NPCs could have First Aid, First Responder, or EMT training, each of which would mean very different things. Just as a brainstrom - First Aid would be for cuts and bruises and basic CPR, nothing too fancy (and it's worth remembering that CPR is basically worthless in most cases); First Responder would be able to handle more complex stuff like setting bones, maybe dealing with dislocated knees and shoulders (tho in real life, that training is really reserved for Wilderness First Responders, not regular FRs); advanced EMTs could do almost anything that would be possible in the field, short of most surgery but including a range of drugs and lots of trauma treatments with improvised equipment. Other useful categories could be devised in addition to or instead of these, maybe with less real-life definition. (For reference, a real-life First Aid cert requires a weekend of training; First Responder about 10 days; and EMT at least a few hundred hours, typically over the course of months - depending on the level of EMT, which works from a basic level up to Paramedic).

NPCs wouldn't necessarily need these skills prior to the zombocalypse. It would be really interesting (to me) to be able to manage the training for your group of survivors. That could open up new possibilities for social skills to develop - the ability to effectively train other people (and train other people on how to train other people). This is a bit off the subject of taking damage, but I think any game that focuses on building a group of survivors should include internal party training; the pressures of "survival" as an endeavor are so overt and constant that there would be clear incentive to develop new skills and techniques, and share existing skills among the group.
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igpx407
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« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2009, 11:36:07 am »

I'm glad someone mentioned Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth. That game handles damage and healing very well.
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kronos
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« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2009, 01:34:09 pm »

NPCs wouldn't necessarily need these skills prior to the zombocalypse. It would be really interesting (to me) to be able to manage the training for your group of survivors. That could open up new possibilities for social skills to develop - the ability to effectively train other people (and train other people on how to train other people). This is a bit off the subject of taking damage, but I think any game that focuses on building a group of survivors should include internal party training; the pressures of "survival" as an endeavor are so overt and constant that there would be clear incentive to develop new skills and techniques, and share existing skills among the group.

I'd really like to see training incorporated in some manner as well. Having to juggle survival on the run and learning skills sounds pretty daunting though, so if training is implemented it would seem to make sense if it was only available when the surivors are heavily fortified and in comfortable position.
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catmorbid
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« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2009, 02:29:49 pm »

Cthulhu: DCOE had a pretty nice damage model. I dunno how it was in the background, but certainly it seemed more complex than in your average shooter.

The most simple and realistic system would probably be one where each body part has set amount of hitpoints, and once they're gone the limb is useless. You could expand it by having a damage-type dependant injury table, that adds some extra fluff on heavy hits, where chance of injury correlates to damage dealt per attack, armor and damage type. Again lot of planning, but the mechanisms are pretty logical, and I've used similar in PnP games. Though it's also a lot about how ambitious road you want to take. I mean a game where you have to spend hours finding antibiotics for your infected leg wound, might not be that fun... then again it might Smile
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« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2009, 03:38:40 pm »

Anybody played pnp polish system Neuroshima ?

It sounds kinda like the damage system the pnp RPG Kult uses, which I mentioned in a Cyclopean thread. It also deals with the concept of wounds instead of hit points, so you have scratches, light wounds, serious wounds and fatal wounds. But instead of CON deciding which wound you take from weapons, it decided how many wounds of each type the character could take before those wounds are combined to one of a worse kind. For example, a normal character would have something like 3 scratches = 1 light wound, 3 light wounds = 1 serious wound, 2 serious wounds = 1 fatal wound. A weapon could of course deal any of these damage types depending on how good the shot was and some other factors.

I really like these kinds of damage systems, they are very easy to track and not very abstract. They should be very easy to apply to individual parts of the body as well.
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UbAh
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« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2009, 04:00:19 pm »

I have always liked a percent tracking model rather than HP.  You could do this per limb and body location.  Say you get a xbow bolt through the bicep which renders it at about 30% useful and about 70% F'd up.  Once you get to 100% F'd you have the chance of permanent irreparable damage which could be driven by a weighted random table.
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catmorbid
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« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2009, 04:51:37 pm »

I have always liked a percent tracking model rather than HP.  You could do this per limb and body location.  Say you get a xbow bolt through the bicep which renders it at about 30% useful and about 70% F'd up.  Once you get to 100% F'd you have the chance of permanent irreparable damage which could be driven by a weighted random table.

But, to make stats have an effect, it's easier to use HP in the background, and maybe in case of crpg display the thing in percentile. However, it won't change what's in the background. But then again, is it even necessary what's in the background when it works great?

I kind of get stuck with this dilemma often, when thinking about crpg vs. pnp systems, since while similar, they have very different needs.

But yeah, that kind of system does sound usable. I would however weigh in the chance of an injury based on the severity of the wound, not happen only when limb is 100% f'd up, maybe make the chance of injury rise in a non-linear scale, where on a wound of 100% damage it's a 100% chance of injury. This way, the destructive power of each individual attack would be taken into consideration as well.  Roll Eyes
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Bloodsausage
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« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2009, 06:13:26 pm »

I thought the damage system in FASA's Shadowrun was decent.  It's similar to the other p&p game mentioned here. Basically you had 2 health bars, one for "stun" dmage(blunt weapons, rubber bullets..) and one for "physical" dmage (edged weapons, bullets, fire, etc).  Each bar had 10 boxes, when a bar got full you died or become unconscious, with various stages of penalties as the boxes got filled in.  Weapons then had damage categories associated with them indicating how many boxes worth of damage they could do, and that was then modified by the defenders stats and armor and the attackers stats and weapon skills.  
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