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NewAgeOfPower
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2017, 04:10:03 pm »

A few title ideas.

1.34 PARSECS - A GENERATION SHIP RPG
11 A.U. - A GENERATION SHIP RPG
WAYFARER - A GENERATION SHIP RPG (The definition of wayfarer appears to be someone who travels on foot, but due to the religious sentiment of The Mission, and a lack of a name given for the ship, I figured it might fit.)
WAYFARER 1.34pc - A GENERATION SHIP RPG

The styling of these names are pretty good.
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puppyonastik
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2017, 11:36:50 pm »

The hardest task is to make the player understand why these people believe in God.
I see. I assume you're going to have to make room for many reasons why each NPC is inspired, or not. Using myself for example, I'm "pragmatically agnostic" (mainly influenced by my engineering and scientific background), but due to the horrendous things that happen to children every day (as one example), unless God is not a sentient omnipotent force, I'd be morally inclined to be atheist "in it's face", essentially shunning it's existence in practice, despite evidence to the contrary. Many tell me the position makes no sense... One particular point of view out of 7 billion who have reasons for or against. How many souls are on the overcrowded ship? 100,000-300,000? That's a still lot of points of view to represent (not being literal), even those that follow the major sects aboard the ship will have certain contentions. It'll be interesting to explore. - Glenn's explanation makes perfect sense to me.

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Way too much work (to do it right). Even "evolving" English a bit to reflect the fact that the game takes place 700 years from now is a major task. Resurrecting dead languages or inventing new ones is way out of our scope.
I made the mistake of not giving examples of how it would look in the dialogue. I didn't mean to suggest that you literally create new languages.
Examples:

Standard player sees:
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The two priests, look you dead in the eye, "There is no Easter bunny."
1. "Explain these eggs!" you demand with conviction.
The priests quickly turn to each other and speak under their breath in a harsh and unfamiliar language. You hear most of it, but find yourself concerned. They tell you in common tongue, "Hand over the chocolate rabbit idols and eggs. Or die." *They pull knives from their robes.*
1. You bite into the chocolate in protest. *combat begins*

Player with knowledgeable NPC's sees:
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The priests quickly turn to each other and speak under their breath in a harsh and unfamiliar language. You hear most of it, but find yourself concerned. They tell you in common tongue, "Hand over the chocolate rabbit idols and eggs. Or die." *They pull knives from their robes.*
2. You lean toward so and so to translate. They whisper, "Something about the eggs, sacred markings, and truth."


Player with knowledge themselves sees:
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The priests quickly turn to each other and speak under their breath in Aramaic, concerning the sacred symbolic patterns of the eggs and that there is no explanation for their existence other than divinity itself. They tell you in common tongue, "Hand over the chocolate rabbit idols and eggs. Or die." *They pull knives from their robes.*
3. "You yourselves cannot deny these miracles! What if I were to tell you that the making of these eggs and idols were guided by select mutant children chosen by God, only one day, every year?"
The priests sheathe their knives, considering bartering for more information.


Player with implants sees:
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The priests quickly turn to each other and speak under their breath in a harsh and unfamiliar language. You hear most of it, but find yourself concerned. They tell you in common tongue, "Hand over the chocolate rabbit idols and eggs. Or die." *They pull knives from their robes.* Your poorly installed and hacked People Person Deluxe Model 339 activates, informs you that those whom threaten you were speaking Jewish Palestinian Aramaic, translates their speech to common tongue, "Jeremiah, we've never seen anything like this before, the eggs he holds are described explicitly in the texts." "There's no doubt that this is a gift from God, John, egg laying rabbit or not, these sacred artifacts cannot be left in impure hands." PPDM339 recommends holding hands and singing Amazing Grace, John Newton 1779. *The song plays on repeat in your head*

Another title idea, trying to aim towards something like your inspiration, "Orphans in the Sky".
The best I've come up with so far is "A PILGRIMAGE IN PARSECS - A GENERATION SHIP RPG". I keep leaning toward "parsecs" because it, for the most part, is used to define distance in space and is more commonly known than other measurements. And pilgrimage, a spiritual journey.

The styling of these names are pretty good.
Thanks, though I'm not really doing much except modding VD's format.
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2017, 10:59:45 am »

I see. I assume you're going to have to make room for many reasons why each NPC is inspired, or not. Using myself for example, I'm "pragmatically agnostic" (mainly influenced by my engineering and scientific background), but due to the horrendous things that happen to children every day (as one example), unless God is not a sentient omnipotent force, I'd be morally inclined to be atheist "in it's face", essentially shunning it's existence in practice, despite evidence to the contrary.
For what it's worth, I think it's a mistake to assume that God must see things exactly the same way as a human (i.e. give a fuck about individual suffering). We are an ecosystem to God and all ecosystems produce "sufferings" on a large scale.

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I made the mistake of not giving examples of how it would look in the dialogue. I didn't mean to suggest that you literally create new languages. Examples:
We did it with the Ordu (one conversation). To do it right we must triple all conversations with such speakers and introduce consequences (otherwise who cares if you understand the language or not). It will quickly balloon into a large project on all 3 fronts: writing, scripting, testing different branches and outcomes.

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The best I've come up with so far is "A PILGRIMAGE IN PARSECS - A GENERATION SHIP RPG". I keep leaning toward "parsecs" because it, for the most part, is used to define distance in space and is more commonly known than other measurements. And pilgrimage, a spiritual journey.
We thought of pilgrims too but this voyage isn't really spiritual, it's colonization/migration/space-ward expansion, so 'pilgrims' doesn't really fit. Parsecs is a good way to make it clear that it's a space-traveling game, but it's not a good name. It's like calling a sea voyage game "a pilgrimage in nautical miles" - doesn't make much sense when you put it this way.
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puppyonastik
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2017, 02:21:28 pm »

For what it's worth, I think it's a mistake to assume that God must see things exactly the same way as a human (i.e. give a fuck about individual suffering). We are an ecosystem to God and all ecosystems produce "sufferings" on a large scale.
You might very well be correct. - If that were the case, I'd be forced to do my best to petition it (Likely use the "with great power comes great responsibility" line.). Should earnest petitions fail, I would scorn it with equal measure as I do Senators, Mayors, Presidents, and Kings - whom do none to very little to improve the lives of those living under their power, and move on to something more industrious.

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We did it with the Ordu (one conversation). To do it right we must triple all conversations with such speakers and introduce consequences (otherwise who cares if you understand the language or not). It will quickly balloon into a large project on all 3 fronts: writing, scripting, testing different branches and outcomes.
That doesn't sound like a challenge the legendary Vault Dweller I've read for a decade (EDIT 2: WOW it's been much longer, time fucking flew.) would shy away from. smug Think of the replay-ability factor!
Perhaps, it wouldn't be too big a balloon if you kept it trim to "bishop-esque" level and above. EDIT: Or to specially modified NPCs, like your riot control robot for example. I love what you did there. In other words, "MOAR".

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We thought of pilgrims too but this voyage isn't really spiritual, it's colonization/migration/space-ward expansion, so 'pilgrims' doesn't really fit.
It was for the Founders, wasn't it? Must be for The Church of the Elect. And I assume the Protectors of the Mission? Or have I been reading wrong? And as you said above, "The hardest task is to make the player understand why these people believe in God.", among other things posted on the forum; tells me that *one* of the big selling points of this story is the examination of faiths.

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It's like calling a sea voyage game "a pilgrimage in nautical miles" - doesn't make much sense when you put it this way.

I had the same thought when I tried to experiment with "Astronomical Units" and the like. Too long and technical. To modify your example, "a pilgrimage in miles", 'flows' better, less technical, gives you an inclination of distance in one word. "Parsecs", the least technical you can get and hint towards a space fairing distance in one word, rolls off the tongue with "pilgrimage".

Anyways, I'm not trying to hard sell you, just in case I'm coming off that way. Just ideas and discussion.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2017, 12:59:41 am by puppyonastik » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2017, 02:35:05 pm »

"It was for the Founders, wasn't it?" I'll also make note that everyone on board wouldn't be in that situation if it wasn't for them. The Founders and their will seem to underline everything in the ship. No matter the current occupant's stance. The mutineers might not be for the "pilgrimage", but they are sure as hell are stuck on it... At least while the Protectors have the most control of the ship... If I'm guessing correctly...
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puppyonastik
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2017, 05:45:05 pm »

You find yourself in the desert, thirsty and alone among dunes of sand. Suddenly, to your luck, you spot a caravan and run to meet then. They invite you to travel with them to their next destination, a town. You choose to follow them. Does this mean you are part of this caravan? To a raiding party, will they differentiate you from the caravan? Say by the time of the generation ship's story, FTL exists and a ship warps in to meet this "great pilgrimage". Where will they draw the line when the pilgrimage ended upon learning of the mutiny? If a large number of the inhabitants still believe in the pilgrimage/"mission" point of view, will the FTL ship crew still consider the generation ship a pilgrimage? Semantics, I know, however... important when choosing a title.
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2017, 08:29:59 am »

That doesn't sound like a challenge the legendary Vault Dweller I've read for a decade (EDIT 2: WOW it's been much longer, time fucking flew.) would shy away from. smug Think of the replay-ability factor!
Exactly - a decade. While the situation is different this time, the development schedule is my biggest concern, which is why I hesitate to expand the scope in any way.

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Quote
We thought of pilgrims too but this voyage isn't really spiritual, it's colonization/migration/space-ward expansion, so 'pilgrims' doesn't really fit.
It was for the Founders, wasn't it? Must be for The Church of the Elect. And I assume the Protectors of the Mission? Or have I been reading wrong?
The Founders and the Church, which makes them a minority as things changed over the decades.

"It was for the Founders, wasn't it?" I'll also make note that everyone on board wouldn't be in that situation if it wasn't for them. The Founders and their will seem to underline everything in the ship. No matter the current occupant's stance. The mutineers might not be for the "pilgrimage", but they are sure as hell are stuck on it... At least while the Protectors have the most control of the ship... If I'm guessing correctly...
It's kinda like still calling Russia Soviet because 100 years ago they boarded the Soviet train which had been derailed a long time ago. Same analogy - the Soviet past did influence the present but it is no longer a Soviet country.
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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2017, 02:25:20 pm »

Exactly - a decade. While the situation is different this time, the development schedule is my biggest concern, which is why I hesitate to expand the scope in any way.
Smart move, it's better to release it sooner and if it will be successful add some new things (by releasing an expansion or DLC) instead of delaying the production 1 year or more. In a way it was the case with AoD, first you released Teron, then added Maadoran and then Ganezaar and in that way you've shown that it wasn't vapourware and kept the interest going.
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puppyonastik
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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2017, 09:50:33 pm »

Exactly - a decade. While the situation is different this time, the development schedule is my biggest concern, which is why I hesitate to expand the scope in any way.
I understand. "The situation is different this time", assuming you're in a better position now, is why I pushed for it. But by all means don't stretch yourselves, unless you're ready for it.

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The Founders and the Church, which makes them a minority as things changed over the decades.

I see. Well that certainly changes my understanding quite a bit. What made the Protectors of the Mission loose the Founder's variation of faith? Other than the mutiny.

Quote
It's kinda like still calling Russia Soviet because 100 years ago they boarded the Soviet train which had been derailed a long time ago. Same analogy - the Soviet past did influence the present but it is no longer a Soviet country.
Hmmm... I don't know about using analogies with countries on a heavily populated world used for a ship "in the middle of no where" and stuck on a path, is best. Since you mentioned the word "train", let's use it. A Soviet built train, ran by a pro-Soviet crew, funded by the Soviet government, traveling through another country when the dissolution happens. Is it still a Soviet train? EDIT: Even if the passengers consider themselves "Russian"?

Bah. You're a much more knowledgeable and experienced man than I am, so I'm going to assume that my perspective is wonky. I'll continue to think of other titles somewhat close to "orphans of the sky"...
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 10:38:20 pm by puppyonastik » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2017, 07:33:59 am »

Exactly - a decade. While the situation is different this time, the development schedule is my biggest concern, which is why I hesitate to expand the scope in any way.
I understand. "The situation is different this time", assuming you're in a better position now, is why I pushed for it. But by all means don't stretch yourselves, unless you're ready for it.
In *theory* we should be able to make the CSG in 5 years instead of 10+, but the content still takes a lot of time no matter what. It took us 10 months to make Dungeon Rats which is a linear combat game with minimum scripting and dialogues, not to mention the same engine, systems, and animations. From this perspective, 4-5 years doesn't sound like a lot.

When we started working on AoD, I didn't realize what a monumental task it was. Now I do, hence the caution. I don't want to simplify anything to speed it up but I'm reluctant to even consider extra features at this point. We're adding a stealth system and 12 party members (meaning a lot of dialogues, scripting, and reactivity), so there's very little room for anything else.

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The Founders and the Church, which makes them a minority as things changed over the decades.

I see. Well that certainly changes my understanding quite a bit. What made the Protectors of the Mission loose the Founder's variation of faith? Other than the mutiny.
Faith slowly eroded even before the mutiny so the Protectors aren't overly religious to begin with. They believe in the Mission a lot more than they believe in God because it is the Mission that gives their lives purpose (not in a "gives us something to do" way but in a "we sacrifice and suffer for a reason" way). Without it none of it makes sense.

Quote
Quote
It's kinda like still calling Russia Soviet because 100 years ago they boarded the Soviet train which had been derailed a long time ago. Same analogy - the Soviet past did influence the present but it is no longer a Soviet country.
Hmmm... I don't know about using analogies with countries on a heavily populated world used for a ship "in the middle of no where" and stuck on a path, is best. Since you mentioned the word "train", let's use it. A Soviet built train, ran by a pro-Soviet crew, funded by the Soviet government, traveling through another country when the dissolution happens. Is it still a Soviet train? EDIT: Even if the passengers consider themselves "Russian"?
If the passengers no longer follow the Soviet way, then it's no longer a Soviet train.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 09:11:05 am by Vince » Logged
puppyonastik
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2017, 06:38:39 pm »

When we started working on AoD, I didn't realize what a monumental task it was. Now I do, hence the caution.

I'm sure you've been asked this in interviews. But looking back, are you glad you were ignorant of what lay ahead? 9/10 on steam and I believe you mentioned 100,000+ copies (even if many were discounted), that's quite the triumph. I think you're safe throwing at least *some* of that caution to the wind. (Not necessarily on my suggestions.)

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If the passengers no longer follow the Soviet way, then it's no longer a Soviet train.

You obviously sympathize with the Mutiny/Brotherhood of Liberty.



EDIT: The RPG Codex variation: "The smug Iron Tower Studios has lost touch with grognards like us. Who thinks there should be loom simulations in game?"
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 06:53:51 pm by puppyonastik » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2017, 08:39:32 pm »

I'm sure you've been asked this in interviews. But looking back, are you glad you were ignorant of what lay ahead?
Yes. I would have never tried making a game had I known that it would take more than 10 years. Nobody has that much faith.

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You obviously sympathize with the Mutiny/Brotherhood of Liberty.
Who doesn't sympathize with bloodthirsty revolutionary fanatics who kill in the name of liberty and freedom?
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2017, 12:28:58 am »

Regarding stealth system:

Have you sketched out and played through some stealth modules on paper?
How many steps v actions were required for various outcomes?
How much noise was generated by the above steps v actions?

Concern about steps (as opposed to actions):

The n+1 mechanic to step noise makes each stealth level a one-more-step mechanic, which seems a little underwhelming. It also renders opposing PER levels largely irrelevant. Once steps begin generating noise, they will do so at an accelerating pace. Assuming a noisy step of value 1, the first two steps will be heard by no one, the third step by guards with PER 9-10, and the fourth step by guards with PER 5-8. Having the same result for 9-10 seems more than reasonable but equivalency between 5-8 seems more problematic. Effectively, this puts a cap of four noisy steps on a pure stealth run for a total of 14 steps at 10 Stealth. This is only a problem depending on your level design decisions, but it's worth considering.
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Vince
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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2017, 08:20:17 am »

Regarding stealth system:

Have you sketched out and played through some stealth modules on paper?
How many steps v actions were required for various outcomes?
How much noise was generated by the above steps v actions?
Not yet as we aren't working on it yet.

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The n+1 mechanic to step noise makes each stealth level a one-more-step mechanic, which seems a little underwhelming.
What would be a better alternative in your opinion? Keep in mind that it's not a stealth game and we can't allocate all our resources to a single system.

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It also renders opposing PER levels largely irrelevant. Once steps begin generating noise, they will do so at an accelerating pace. Assuming a noisy step of value 1, the first two steps will be heard by no one, the third step by guards with PER 9-10, and the fourth step by guards with PER 5-8.
You will be dealing with 1-2 guards at a time, the counter will be reset after reaching your goal or a certain stage. The guards' PER will reflect their training and alertness. A drunken scavenger protecting his stash will have a much lower PER than a Church guard protecting their holy relics.

So using the palace infiltration as an example, sneaking past the outside guards will affect only the guards you're sneaking past (i.e. the guards in the vicinity). Once you're inside, the counter will be reset and a new 'sequence' will start.
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« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2017, 02:37:20 pm »

Vince, you are making the game in UE4, right? And there was something about 'half a year to get to know the engine' i think.
So i was thinking maybe there is a chance you could make a separate thread for links of 'usefull' materials you were seeing/reading to help learn the engine and how to work with it?

(i know its technically irrelevant why im asking, but im also making a game, its going to be awfull, but i want it to be as good as i can make it, learning everything from scratch since im originally from a different industry)

Looking forward to being able to preorder The New World ! <3


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