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Author Topic: CSG update #15 - stealth overview  (Read 24980 times)
Vince
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« on: June 02, 2017, 01:42:48 pm »


^ used sci fi book cover from the 70's style
 
What do people think of when they hear "The New World", absent a video game?

  • a time when people were migrating in their millions across the Atlantic to the strife and uncertainty of an unknown destination
  • people fleeing an awful life of toil for a new almost entirely unknown life, which unbeknownst to them would also be full of toil
  • people of all different religions, origins and castes jammed together on the voyage; even rich and poor, otherwise always segregated, shared the same boat
  • European pioneers, the migration West, the Mayflower, colonization, it's a package of all the sub-themes

What will people see when they're playing the game?

  • The passengers of the Ship are headed to a New World
  • The Ship itself is a New World, away from Earth for so many generations it might as well be a myth
  • The player is like one of those hapless migrants of the five hundred year migration to North America, surrounded by conflicting factions, different religions, philosophies and ideals
  • The player is headed for the absolutely unknown in a chaotic, dangerous environment where he must live by violence or his wits

Other benefit: the name doesn't sound like any current computer games, or suggest other types of computer games. Like The Age of Decadence it really stands alone. So while at first glance it seems bland, in very few words it completely identifies the practical details of the game *and* the philosophical underpinnings of the game. It's not perfect, but I think it's the best we've come up with and likely the best we ever will come up.

* * *

Stealth System Overview:

You know what to expect (more or less) from the character, combat, and dialogue systems. A proper stealth system is something new, which means there are many exciting ways to screw it up. So let's take a look at the rough "on paper" concept and get some feedback. Keep in mind that The New World isn't a stealth-focused game like Thief and we can't allocate all our limited resources to the stealth system alone. Having said that, we do want to offer an interesting and well-designed alternative solution to many side quests and a well-supported path through the game (like the talker's way in AoD - you couldn't talk your way in and out of every situation but you could talk your way through the game).

Let's start by giving you a specific example from one of the early quests and then go over the features. You need some energy cores, one of the scavenger crews has them, so you can either talk to them (pay a lot of money or con them like a pro), kill 'em all (always popular), or sneak around and do some breaking and entering.

There’s a built-in air purifier out back, you can use your Mechanics skill to open the hatch, making some noise in the process. If nobody comes to investigate, you enter the premises and TB stealth mode. The crew's leader is in the room next door, drunk after celebrating a successful run (if you come back later, he will be more alert). We check if he heard the noise. If he didn’t, he stays where he is. You need to make your way to a locked strongbox. Each step generates some noise, if he hears it, he goes to investigate. Finally, lockpicking the stronghold generates some noise too. So again, if he hears it, he goes to investigate. If not, he remains where he is and you get away clean.

If he does hear the noise, he goes to investigate, heading for the place where the noise originated from, meaning you should get as far away from that place as possible (as far as your AP allow, which means that sneaking will require high Dex and proper feats) or ambush him.

If he sees you (i.e. you're caught in his cone of vision), he goes for his gun, otherwise he starts searching. During the searching phase, if he comes close to you but doesn’t see you, you get an optional interrupt allowing you to insta-kill him using your trusted Critical Strike skill. Failing the attempt starts combat. You can also attempt to sneak up on him and kill him during your turn. If he sees you, he gets an interrupt attack and shoots you in the face.

Details:

1) Each action (movement, lockpicking, hacking, etc) is assigned noise points. The points, modified by your gear and Stealth) will add up with each action and will determine whether or not an NPC acting as 'guard' is alerted and goes to investigate.

So in this case you open up the hatch, the guard hears a light click but ignores it. You step inside, he hears something but ignores it too. You take several steps and finally get the guard's attention, raising his alert level. You success depends not a dice roll but on your skills and gear (either you can stay below the guard's radar or you can't). You can trigger his alert level the moment you step inside or when you make it to the strongbox and open it. Each subsequent action increases the alert level. A good thief can clean up the entire room, a not-so-good thief would have to stick to his objective and consider himself lucky if he isn't caught.

2) The movement’s noise points start at 1 and go up with every step (i.e. with every tile). It’s not that the third step makes more noise than the first two but the act of walking produces more noise than taking a single step (i.e. a single footstep may not be enough to trigger a guard’s attention but 3 footsteps might, plus it takes more skill to silently cross a hallway than to take a step or two). Thus more challenging tasks will require much higher skill levels and better gear. Same goes for optional objectives.

3) Your skills and gear will modify the noise points. For gear, we won’t go with % penalty but with +1, +2, etc. So if you wearing army boots with +2 and metal armor with +3, but your Stealth is 5, you generate 1+2+3-5 =1 points plus 1 with each step. Remove the armor and it will take a lot longer to make enough noise to alert the guards but if you’re caught, you’ll be wearing nothing but your jumpsuit.

4) Each guard's alert level is determined by his PER, something like 15-PER. So a guard with PER 8 will be alerted when you generate more noise points than 7. Thus the goal for the player is to have the right gear (not just the armor but the tools of the trade like jammers and electronic lockpicks) to reduce noise (if it takes you 5 min to open a lock, odds are you'll make more noise than someone who can open it in 30 sec). Overall, longer infiltration missions are much harder to pull off than shorter/simpler ones, which makes sense (without relying on higher checks, I mean).

5) In more open areas you can move freely during your turn. As long as the guards won't see you or won't become alert, you'll be able to get in and out without any problems. Getting caught doesn't always mean combat and painful, vividly described death. The exact outcome will differ based on each situation. Maybe your designated thief (can be you or any member of your crew) can talk his/her way out. Maybe the guards rob the thief and throw him/her out. Maybe they kill him or maybe they yell "we have your guy, come out!" and then you either come out and talk or leave him to his fate (to be killed).

Last, I'll use this opportunity to introduce one of your first party members - a designated thief named Dinah. Obviously you don't have to make her a member of your crew, but if you need a thief, you've got one.



Dinah is the kind of woman the Pit breeds by the gross, a rootless nobody without a family, home or future. Absent any special skills, she signed up with a scavenging crew, too naive to realize they were all first-timers like herself. After three months spent combing the relatively safe decks adjacent to the Pit, zones which had been picked clean a long time ago, her crew was faced with a hard choice: keep searching farther in, with increased danger but at least some chance of a payoff, or return empty-handed and take a job in the "service" industry. They kept going. The next day, though they didn't have a kilo of salable scrap among them, they were ambushed by another crew.

Dinah would have died out there on the bare deck with the other amateurs had a Regulators patrol not happened on the scene. The enemy scavs didn't heed the warning to drop their weapons -possibly because it was simultaneous with the Regulators opening fire- and were gunned down without mercy. With that one brief moment of good fortune behind her, she was taken into custody. The Regulators' one abiding creed is to make a profit no matter what, and since there isn't any profit in transporting failed scavs around the Wasteland, they've been keeping Dinah in a cell ever since, pending the appearance of some benefactor to pay her recovery fee. It doesn't look like they're ever going to get their fee, but at least they don't have to feed her anymore.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 09:37:40 am by Vince » Logged
puppyonastik
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« Reply #1 on: June 02, 2017, 07:08:54 pm »

The cover art looks fucking amazing!

Personally, I think it doesn't matter what you name it (using Phoenix Point as an example.), because most of your market are going to know what they are getting. The subtitle does all the necessary heavy lifting otherwise. That's not to say I disagree with the choice of "A New World", It works for me.

As for the stealth system, being one who chooses the smooth talkers, all I can say is that i think you'll probably get your best advice and constructive criticism if you vertical slice/demo it, like with AOD.
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« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2017, 07:11:52 pm »

Whalenought has some similar concepts for their turn-based game Copper Dreams. Might be of use to compare/contrast with their ideas.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1649838104/copper-dreams
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« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2017, 09:52:26 am »

Is the stealth like Invisible Inc a bit then ?
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« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2017, 10:14:08 am »

Is the stealth like Invisible Inc a bit then ?
Not quite.
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« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2017, 11:38:04 am »

Well, looking forward to seeing this game in action, even though it's 4- years away Grin
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« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2017, 10:43:09 pm »

So, uh, stealth is like a minigame in its own right?
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« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2017, 08:56:59 am »

So, uh, stealth is like a minigame in its own right?
If you consider combat a minigame too, then yes.
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« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2017, 07:29:09 pm »

Can we look forward to stealth (or otherwise) text adventures?

Edit: Apologies, I assumed the scenario mentioned in the OP was handled in a separate mode from text adventures.
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2017, 05:46:57 am »

A good title. I believe the quality of the game will be sufficient to cover audience far beyond AoD fans, therefore the title matters.
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2017, 09:02:44 pm »

Can't wait to try it out!
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2017, 04:47:22 pm »

A few title ideas.

1.34 PARSECS - A GENERATION SHIP RPG
11 A.U. - A GENERATION SHIP RPG
WAYFARER - A GENERATION SHIP RPG (The definition of wayfarer appears to be someone who travels on foot, but due to the religious sentiment of The Mission, and a lack of a name given for the ship, I figured it might fit.)
WAYFARER 1.34pc - A GENERATION SHIP RPG
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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2017, 07:31:57 am »

WAYFARER - A GENERATION SHIP RPG (The definition of wayfarer appears to be someone who travels on foot, but due to the religious sentiment of The Mission, and a lack of a name given for the ship, I figured it might fit.)
WAYFARER 1.34pc - A GENERATION SHIP RPG
Note: the ship is called Starfarer. From one of the past updates:

In the Year of Our Lord 2754…

You will never feel the sun’s warmth under a blue sky, never hear the wind in the branches of a tree, and never swim in the ocean, because you had the misfortune to be born on the Ship. You have never seen Earth, and you’ll never see Proxima Centauri either, your past and future both sacrificed by some dim and nameless ancestor to the greater good of the Mission.

Starfarer, they called her, a pretty name for a retrofitted interplanetary freighter. She had already been twenty years in service when she was rechristened, and showing every minute of it. No one is certain the Ship will actually reach its destination, and nobody much cares, since no one alive now will live to see it...
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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2017, 11:26:41 am »

I see. Apologies for missing that.

If I may ask, for more thinking, what version of the bible/texts/spoken-word are/were these "Neo-Christians" using? or are we assuming "No one knows"? or "that's a major arc of the story and would be a spoiler."? I'm kinda getting both vibes from this quote:

Quote
Last but not the least, they loosely follow the word of Jesus Christ - “read the Bible as interpreted by experts”, which makes them open to the sermons of the Church of the Elect.

But I thought I'd ask anyways...

Would you be interested in main title proposals in other languages? Aramaic as an example? Considering that people are resurrecting dead languages for a living and learning to speak Tolkien's for fun. I figure it will only be a decade before algorithms and/or artificial intelligence have combed and sorted the breadth of man's tongue.

That gives me an idea; the possibility of factions and particular NPCs whom speak different languages (in game) as a feature (I haven't finished AOD yet, so I don't know if you've done this already.). Example:
The player character is meeting with 2 high-ranking members of the Church and during the text-adventure they speak in a "non-standard" language to each other to obfuscate their thoughts. The player character using knowledge, tech, or a follower to translate can glean what they can.
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2017, 12:54:45 pm »

If I may ask, for more thinking, what version of the bible/texts/spoken-word are/were these "Neo-Christians" using? or are we assuming "No one knows"? or "that's a major arc of the story and would be a spoiler."?
No owe knows, i.e. not important to the setting/story. What is important is how the interpret the bible and apply it to their situation. Stuff like:

“Did the Israelites not wander the desert for forty years before He allowed them into the Promised Land? Why did they go for so long without a home? They were not ready. The Israelites must first make their children worthy of the Lord’s grace, and only then were those children allowed to set foot in the Promised Land.

“Does that sound familiar at all?” He gestures expansively at the wide, empty chamber and the expressionless guards. “What are we but wanderers in the infinite wilderness of space? The Dawn shall come precisely when we demonstrate our worthiness to the Lord, and not one minute earlier.”

The hardest task is to make the player understand why these people believe in God. Here is an interesting quote:

http://religionnews.com/2016/12/08/as-astronaut-senator-and-presbyterian-john-glenn-saw-no-conflict-between-beliefs-in-god-and-science/

Quote
And in a space-to-Earth news conference during his second space flight at age 77 in 1998, Glenn told reporters his view of space only strengthened his belief in God.

“Looking at the Earth from this vantage point, looking at this kind of creation and to not believe in God, to me, is impossible. To see (Earth) laid out like that only strengthens my beliefs,” he said.


Quote
Would you be interested in main title proposals in other languages? Aramaic as an example?
I think only a handful of people would get it.

Quote
That gives me an idea; the possibility of factions and particular NPCs whom speak different languages (in game) as a feature...
Way too much work (to do it right). Even "evolving" English a bit to reflect the fact that the game takes place 700 years from now is a major task. Resurrecting dead languages or inventing new ones is way out of our scope.
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2017, 04:10:03 pm »

A few title ideas.

1.34 PARSECS - A GENERATION SHIP RPG
11 A.U. - A GENERATION SHIP RPG
WAYFARER - A GENERATION SHIP RPG (The definition of wayfarer appears to be someone who travels on foot, but due to the religious sentiment of The Mission, and a lack of a name given for the ship, I figured it might fit.)
WAYFARER 1.34pc - A GENERATION SHIP RPG

The styling of these names are pretty good.
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2017, 11:36:50 pm »

The hardest task is to make the player understand why these people believe in God.
I see. I assume you're going to have to make room for many reasons why each NPC is inspired, or not. Using myself for example, I'm "pragmatically agnostic" (mainly influenced by my engineering and scientific background), but due to the horrendous things that happen to children every day (as one example), unless God is not a sentient omnipotent force, I'd be morally inclined to be atheist "in it's face", essentially shunning it's existence in practice, despite evidence to the contrary. Many tell me the position makes no sense... One particular point of view out of 7 billion who have reasons for or against. How many souls are on the overcrowded ship? 100,000-300,000? That's a still lot of points of view to represent (not being literal), even those that follow the major sects aboard the ship will have certain contentions. It'll be interesting to explore. - Glenn's explanation makes perfect sense to me.

Quote
Way too much work (to do it right). Even "evolving" English a bit to reflect the fact that the game takes place 700 years from now is a major task. Resurrecting dead languages or inventing new ones is way out of our scope.
I made the mistake of not giving examples of how it would look in the dialogue. I didn't mean to suggest that you literally create new languages.
Examples:

Standard player sees:
Quote
The two priests, look you dead in the eye, "There is no Easter bunny."
1. "Explain these eggs!" you demand with conviction.
The priests quickly turn to each other and speak under their breath in a harsh and unfamiliar language. You hear most of it, but find yourself concerned. They tell you in common tongue, "Hand over the chocolate rabbit idols and eggs. Or die." *They pull knives from their robes.*
1. You bite into the chocolate in protest. *combat begins*

Player with knowledgeable NPC's sees:
Quote
The priests quickly turn to each other and speak under their breath in a harsh and unfamiliar language. You hear most of it, but find yourself concerned. They tell you in common tongue, "Hand over the chocolate rabbit idols and eggs. Or die." *They pull knives from their robes.*
2. You lean toward so and so to translate. They whisper, "Something about the eggs, sacred markings, and truth."


Player with knowledge themselves sees:
Quote
The priests quickly turn to each other and speak under their breath in Aramaic, concerning the sacred symbolic patterns of the eggs and that there is no explanation for their existence other than divinity itself. They tell you in common tongue, "Hand over the chocolate rabbit idols and eggs. Or die." *They pull knives from their robes.*
3. "You yourselves cannot deny these miracles! What if I were to tell you that the making of these eggs and idols were guided by select mutant children chosen by God, only one day, every year?"
The priests sheathe their knives, considering bartering for more information.


Player with implants sees:
Quote
The priests quickly turn to each other and speak under their breath in a harsh and unfamiliar language. You hear most of it, but find yourself concerned. They tell you in common tongue, "Hand over the chocolate rabbit idols and eggs. Or die." *They pull knives from their robes.* Your poorly installed and hacked People Person Deluxe Model 339 activates, informs you that those whom threaten you were speaking Jewish Palestinian Aramaic, translates their speech to common tongue, "Jeremiah, we've never seen anything like this before, the eggs he holds are described explicitly in the texts." "There's no doubt that this is a gift from God, John, egg laying rabbit or not, these sacred artifacts cannot be left in impure hands." PPDM339 recommends holding hands and singing Amazing Grace, John Newton 1779. *The song plays on repeat in your head*

Another title idea, trying to aim towards something like your inspiration, "Orphans in the Sky".
The best I've come up with so far is "A PILGRIMAGE IN PARSECS - A GENERATION SHIP RPG". I keep leaning toward "parsecs" because it, for the most part, is used to define distance in space and is more commonly known than other measurements. And pilgrimage, a spiritual journey.

The styling of these names are pretty good.
Thanks, though I'm not really doing much except modding VD's format.
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« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2017, 10:59:45 am »

I see. I assume you're going to have to make room for many reasons why each NPC is inspired, or not. Using myself for example, I'm "pragmatically agnostic" (mainly influenced by my engineering and scientific background), but due to the horrendous things that happen to children every day (as one example), unless God is not a sentient omnipotent force, I'd be morally inclined to be atheist "in it's face", essentially shunning it's existence in practice, despite evidence to the contrary.
For what it's worth, I think it's a mistake to assume that God must see things exactly the same way as a human (i.e. give a fuck about individual suffering). We are an ecosystem to God and all ecosystems produce "sufferings" on a large scale.

Quote
I made the mistake of not giving examples of how it would look in the dialogue. I didn't mean to suggest that you literally create new languages. Examples:
We did it with the Ordu (one conversation). To do it right we must triple all conversations with such speakers and introduce consequences (otherwise who cares if you understand the language or not). It will quickly balloon into a large project on all 3 fronts: writing, scripting, testing different branches and outcomes.

Quote
The best I've come up with so far is "A PILGRIMAGE IN PARSECS - A GENERATION SHIP RPG". I keep leaning toward "parsecs" because it, for the most part, is used to define distance in space and is more commonly known than other measurements. And pilgrimage, a spiritual journey.
We thought of pilgrims too but this voyage isn't really spiritual, it's colonization/migration/space-ward expansion, so 'pilgrims' doesn't really fit. Parsecs is a good way to make it clear that it's a space-traveling game, but it's not a good name. It's like calling a sea voyage game "a pilgrimage in nautical miles" - doesn't make much sense when you put it this way.
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2017, 02:21:28 pm »

For what it's worth, I think it's a mistake to assume that God must see things exactly the same way as a human (i.e. give a fuck about individual suffering). We are an ecosystem to God and all ecosystems produce "sufferings" on a large scale.
You might very well be correct. - If that were the case, I'd be forced to do my best to petition it (Likely use the "with great power comes great responsibility" line.). Should earnest petitions fail, I would scorn it with equal measure as I do Senators, Mayors, Presidents, and Kings - whom do none to very little to improve the lives of those living under their power, and move on to something more industrious.

Quote
We did it with the Ordu (one conversation). To do it right we must triple all conversations with such speakers and introduce consequences (otherwise who cares if you understand the language or not). It will quickly balloon into a large project on all 3 fronts: writing, scripting, testing different branches and outcomes.
That doesn't sound like a challenge the legendary Vault Dweller I've read for a decade (EDIT 2: WOW it's been much longer, time fucking flew.) would shy away from. smug Think of the replay-ability factor!
Perhaps, it wouldn't be too big a balloon if you kept it trim to "bishop-esque" level and above. EDIT: Or to specially modified NPCs, like your riot control robot for example. I love what you did there. In other words, "MOAR".

Quote
We thought of pilgrims too but this voyage isn't really spiritual, it's colonization/migration/space-ward expansion, so 'pilgrims' doesn't really fit.
It was for the Founders, wasn't it? Must be for The Church of the Elect. And I assume the Protectors of the Mission? Or have I been reading wrong? And as you said above, "The hardest task is to make the player understand why these people believe in God.", among other things posted on the forum; tells me that *one* of the big selling points of this story is the examination of faiths.

Quote
It's like calling a sea voyage game "a pilgrimage in nautical miles" - doesn't make much sense when you put it this way.

I had the same thought when I tried to experiment with "Astronomical Units" and the like. Too long and technical. To modify your example, "a pilgrimage in miles", 'flows' better, less technical, gives you an inclination of distance in one word. "Parsecs", the least technical you can get and hint towards a space fairing distance in one word, rolls off the tongue with "pilgrimage".

Anyways, I'm not trying to hard sell you, just in case I'm coming off that way. Just ideas and discussion.
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« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2017, 02:35:05 pm »

"It was for the Founders, wasn't it?" I'll also make note that everyone on board wouldn't be in that situation if it wasn't for them. The Founders and their will seem to underline everything in the ship. No matter the current occupant's stance. The mutineers might not be for the "pilgrimage", but they are sure as hell are stuck on it... At least while the Protectors have the most control of the ship... If I'm guessing correctly...
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« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2017, 05:45:05 pm »

You find yourself in the desert, thirsty and alone among dunes of sand. Suddenly, to your luck, you spot a caravan and run to meet then. They invite you to travel with them to their next destination, a town. You choose to follow them. Does this mean you are part of this caravan? To a raiding party, will they differentiate you from the caravan? Say by the time of the generation ship's story, FTL exists and a ship warps in to meet this "great pilgrimage". Where will they draw the line when the pilgrimage ended upon learning of the mutiny? If a large number of the inhabitants still believe in the pilgrimage/"mission" point of view, will the FTL ship crew still consider the generation ship a pilgrimage? Semantics, I know, however... important when choosing a title.
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2017, 08:29:59 am »

That doesn't sound like a challenge the legendary Vault Dweller I've read for a decade (EDIT 2: WOW it's been much longer, time fucking flew.) would shy away from. smug Think of the replay-ability factor!
Exactly - a decade. While the situation is different this time, the development schedule is my biggest concern, which is why I hesitate to expand the scope in any way.

Quote
Quote
We thought of pilgrims too but this voyage isn't really spiritual, it's colonization/migration/space-ward expansion, so 'pilgrims' doesn't really fit.
It was for the Founders, wasn't it? Must be for The Church of the Elect. And I assume the Protectors of the Mission? Or have I been reading wrong?
The Founders and the Church, which makes them a minority as things changed over the decades.

"It was for the Founders, wasn't it?" I'll also make note that everyone on board wouldn't be in that situation if it wasn't for them. The Founders and their will seem to underline everything in the ship. No matter the current occupant's stance. The mutineers might not be for the "pilgrimage", but they are sure as hell are stuck on it... At least while the Protectors have the most control of the ship... If I'm guessing correctly...
It's kinda like still calling Russia Soviet because 100 years ago they boarded the Soviet train which had been derailed a long time ago. Same analogy - the Soviet past did influence the present but it is no longer a Soviet country.
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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2017, 02:25:20 pm »

Exactly - a decade. While the situation is different this time, the development schedule is my biggest concern, which is why I hesitate to expand the scope in any way.
Smart move, it's better to release it sooner and if it will be successful add some new things (by releasing an expansion or DLC) instead of delaying the production 1 year or more. In a way it was the case with AoD, first you released Teron, then added Maadoran and then Ganezaar and in that way you've shown that it wasn't vapourware and kept the interest going.
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« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2017, 09:50:33 pm »

Exactly - a decade. While the situation is different this time, the development schedule is my biggest concern, which is why I hesitate to expand the scope in any way.
I understand. "The situation is different this time", assuming you're in a better position now, is why I pushed for it. But by all means don't stretch yourselves, unless you're ready for it.

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The Founders and the Church, which makes them a minority as things changed over the decades.

I see. Well that certainly changes my understanding quite a bit. What made the Protectors of the Mission loose the Founder's variation of faith? Other than the mutiny.

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It's kinda like still calling Russia Soviet because 100 years ago they boarded the Soviet train which had been derailed a long time ago. Same analogy - the Soviet past did influence the present but it is no longer a Soviet country.
Hmmm... I don't know about using analogies with countries on a heavily populated world used for a ship "in the middle of no where" and stuck on a path, is best. Since you mentioned the word "train", let's use it. A Soviet built train, ran by a pro-Soviet crew, funded by the Soviet government, traveling through another country when the dissolution happens. Is it still a Soviet train? EDIT: Even if the passengers consider themselves "Russian"?

Bah. You're a much more knowledgeable and experienced man than I am, so I'm going to assume that my perspective is wonky. I'll continue to think of other titles somewhat close to "orphans of the sky"...
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 10:38:20 pm by puppyonastik » Logged

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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2017, 07:33:59 am »

Exactly - a decade. While the situation is different this time, the development schedule is my biggest concern, which is why I hesitate to expand the scope in any way.
I understand. "The situation is different this time", assuming you're in a better position now, is why I pushed for it. But by all means don't stretch yourselves, unless you're ready for it.
In *theory* we should be able to make the CSG in 5 years instead of 10+, but the content still takes a lot of time no matter what. It took us 10 months to make Dungeon Rats which is a linear combat game with minimum scripting and dialogues, not to mention the same engine, systems, and animations. From this perspective, 4-5 years doesn't sound like a lot.

When we started working on AoD, I didn't realize what a monumental task it was. Now I do, hence the caution. I don't want to simplify anything to speed it up but I'm reluctant to even consider extra features at this point. We're adding a stealth system and 12 party members (meaning a lot of dialogues, scripting, and reactivity), so there's very little room for anything else.

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The Founders and the Church, which makes them a minority as things changed over the decades.

I see. Well that certainly changes my understanding quite a bit. What made the Protectors of the Mission loose the Founder's variation of faith? Other than the mutiny.
Faith slowly eroded even before the mutiny so the Protectors aren't overly religious to begin with. They believe in the Mission a lot more than they believe in God because it is the Mission that gives their lives purpose (not in a "gives us something to do" way but in a "we sacrifice and suffer for a reason" way). Without it none of it makes sense.

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It's kinda like still calling Russia Soviet because 100 years ago they boarded the Soviet train which had been derailed a long time ago. Same analogy - the Soviet past did influence the present but it is no longer a Soviet country.
Hmmm... I don't know about using analogies with countries on a heavily populated world used for a ship "in the middle of no where" and stuck on a path, is best. Since you mentioned the word "train", let's use it. A Soviet built train, ran by a pro-Soviet crew, funded by the Soviet government, traveling through another country when the dissolution happens. Is it still a Soviet train? EDIT: Even if the passengers consider themselves "Russian"?
If the passengers no longer follow the Soviet way, then it's no longer a Soviet train.
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2017, 06:38:39 pm »

When we started working on AoD, I didn't realize what a monumental task it was. Now I do, hence the caution.
I'm sure you've been asked this in interviews. But looking back, are you glad you were ignorant of what lay ahead? 9/10 on steam and I believe you mentioned 100,000+ copies (even if many were discounted), that's quite the triumph. I think you're safe throwing at least *some* of that caution to the wind. (Not necessarily on my suggestions.)

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If the passengers no longer follow the Soviet way, then it's no longer a Soviet train.
You obviously sympathize with the Mutiny/Brotherhood of Liberty.



EDIT: The RPG Codex variation: "The smug Iron Tower Studios has lost touch with grognards like us. Who thinks there should be loom simulations in game?"
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 06:53:51 pm by puppyonastik » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2017, 08:39:32 pm »

I'm sure you've been asked this in interviews. But looking back, are you glad you were ignorant of what lay ahead?
Yes. I would have never tried making a game had I known that it would take more than 10 years. Nobody has that much faith.

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You obviously sympathize with the Mutiny/Brotherhood of Liberty.
Who doesn't sympathize with bloodthirsty revolutionary fanatics who kill in the name of liberty and freedom?
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« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2017, 12:28:58 am »

Regarding stealth system:

Have you sketched out and played through some stealth modules on paper?
How many steps v actions were required for various outcomes?
How much noise was generated by the above steps v actions?

Concern about steps (as opposed to actions):

The n+1 mechanic to step noise makes each stealth level a one-more-step mechanic, which seems a little underwhelming. It also renders opposing PER levels largely irrelevant. Once steps begin generating noise, they will do so at an accelerating pace. Assuming a noisy step of value 1, the first two steps will be heard by no one, the third step by guards with PER 9-10, and the fourth step by guards with PER 5-8. Having the same result for 9-10 seems more than reasonable but equivalency between 5-8 seems more problematic. Effectively, this puts a cap of four noisy steps on a pure stealth run for a total of 14 steps at 10 Stealth. This is only a problem depending on your level design decisions, but it's worth considering.
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« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2017, 08:20:17 am »

Regarding stealth system:

Have you sketched out and played through some stealth modules on paper?
How many steps v actions were required for various outcomes?
How much noise was generated by the above steps v actions?
Not yet as we aren't working on it yet.

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The n+1 mechanic to step noise makes each stealth level a one-more-step mechanic, which seems a little underwhelming.
What would be a better alternative in your opinion? Keep in mind that it's not a stealth game and we can't allocate all our resources to a single system.

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It also renders opposing PER levels largely irrelevant. Once steps begin generating noise, they will do so at an accelerating pace. Assuming a noisy step of value 1, the first two steps will be heard by no one, the third step by guards with PER 9-10, and the fourth step by guards with PER 5-8.
You will be dealing with 1-2 guards at a time, the counter will be reset after reaching your goal or a certain stage. The guards' PER will reflect their training and alertness. A drunken scavenger protecting his stash will have a much lower PER than a Church guard protecting their holy relics.

So using the palace infiltration as an example, sneaking past the outside guards will affect only the guards you're sneaking past (i.e. the guards in the vicinity). Once you're inside, the counter will be reset and a new 'sequence' will start.
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« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2017, 02:37:20 pm »

Vince, you are making the game in UE4, right? And there was something about 'half a year to get to know the engine' i think.
So i was thinking maybe there is a chance you could make a separate thread for links of 'usefull' materials you were seeing/reading to help learn the engine and how to work with it?

(i know its technically irrelevant why im asking, but im also making a game, its going to be awfull, but i want it to be as good as i can make it, learning everything from scratch since im originally from a different industry)

Looking forward to being able to preorder The New World ! <3

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« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2017, 05:38:32 pm »

Vince, you are making the game in UE4, right? And there was something about 'half a year to get to know the engine' i think.

I don't mind discussing the engine and sharing our finds, but I can't imagine the format. Just posting random links to code snippets, plugins, answerhub threads? I doubt it's going to be very helpful. Usually, when doing something, you have something very specific to learn and achieve. Maybe a blog would be a appropriate, each post dedicated to doing something interesting, but updating and maintaining it would require too much time, like a separate project.

If you have other suggestions or some specific questions you think we might help you with, feel free to post them.
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« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2017, 04:29:56 am »


Just posting random links to code snippets, plugins, answerhub threads? I doubt it's going to be very helpful. Usually, when doing something, you have something very specific to learn and achieve. Maybe a blog would be a appropriate, each post dedicated to doing something interesting, but updating and maintaining it would require too much time, like a separate project.


The random link spam was more or less what i was thinking about actually, like you said, making a blog takes too much time and effort.
Maybe making a small comment from time to time if you choose to. For example: that drone i posted will not work, since its a single object, - the rotors should have been separate both for shading and beveling.

Also one could make argument about the 'not going to be helpfull', if you know what you are doing, sure you might have a few gaps in knowledge that you need to close so you can proceed - in those cases absolutely, random link spam wont help too much, however i am a solo autist who knew nothing about making a game up untill very recently. You guys are absolutely amazing with your work, so if YOU found something helpfull i sure as hell could use it, same for anyone else in my hypothetical situation.

So yeh, the few random links was precisely what i was thinking about. <3
And only if you have time to share those, there is so much work to do, so little time for all of us.
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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2017, 07:26:48 am »

Alright, if you think it may be useful, I'll start the thread later on today.
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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2017, 11:16:21 am »

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,7470.new.html
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