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Author Topic: Zoe Quinn Corruption  (Read 54851 times)
Shady314
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« Reply #90 on: October 20, 2014, 08:45:22 am »

There's no car-driving culture or coffee-drinking culture
Huh? Haha, no

To be clear I don't care about this thread one way or another. This was just too hilarious when I read it.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 08:48:09 am by Shady314 » Logged

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« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2014, 09:06:09 am »

Quote from: Gregorus Prime
And for Christ's sake, Leigh Alexander writing a shitty article that declares a subset of pop culture irrelevant is nowhere near the same thing as making a fucking mass shooting threat against a school to stop someone from giving a dumb speech about how broads in vidya got racks what are too big.
By what kind of fucked up logic does a violent threat against one person's talk validate viewpoints of an article written by another person a month before?

Effectively, you are saying that any comments on this subject that do not agree with one of the sides, any comments at all, endorse terrorism.

Quote from: Scott
Wow, this thread is still going. Check this out. Kotaku really does sum this whole shit storm up nicely.
Not really. They still think this can be "won" by assembling a larger group of supporters that will shout down the opposition. It is not how these things work out. This will be over when people on both sides will be willing to concede at lest some points and stop parroting extremists. Or this will continue to be a constant political battleground with shit flying both ways.

Quote from: Scott
I also don't have a problem with what Leigh Alexander said about gaming culture.
She said that it's not real culture. She slammed it with vile, decades old stereotypes. She said that the absolute worst of the people who identify with it are the only representatives she cares about, and that everyone else in the subculture is by default guilty and complicit. She said all of those things directly, and pretty unambiguously. You agree and don't have any problems with any of these statements?

No, none of this validates doxxing, hacking, violent threats. But all those those things do not validate the said viewpoints either. Logic 101: stupidity on one side of a fight does not validate stupidity on the other.

...

And for the record, Darkthia, I do not agree with a lot of what you said here either. I think you're overstating the importance of corruption to this whole thing and refusing to see the problems with tactics GamerGate initially employed, and some of its supporters still use. It would be far better if people stopped dragging that tag and Quinn into the fold. But neither do I think this completely invalidates everything you say.

There are other, me constructive ways to discuss the issues involved. People can state what they think without taking sides, or linking to someone's conspiracy theories. I am far less bothered by bribery (which I know for a fact takes place), than by willingness of so many journalists to openly shit on the subculture that feeds them and use this commotion as an excuse for moralistic posturing and pushing forward their politics. I do not know whether that can also called corruption, but I sure as hell do not like it, even though I rarely read mainstream gaming press. These game reviewers and their proponents have neither moral authority, not intellectual capacity to lecture anyone. The problem (and irony) here is that they actively make things worse. If you think that writing of these people makes women feel more welcome in gaming, you are wrong. The effect is the exact opposite. Polarization, politicization, more hostility - for everyone. There is absolutely nothing constructive about it.

...

For another record. I absolutely despise people who try to one-up each each other in outrage over some issue when that scores them brownie points.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 07:15:07 pm by Gambler » Logged
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« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2014, 11:03:54 am »

#HashtagsAreDumb  Roll Eyes
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Scott
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« Reply #93 on: October 20, 2014, 02:01:46 pm »

Quote
She said that it's not real culture. She slammed it with vile, decades old stereotypes. She said that the absolute worst of the people who identify with it are the only representatives she cares about, and that everyone else in the subculture is by default guilty and complicit. She said all of those things directly, and pretty unambiguously. You agree and don't have any problems with any of these statements?

I don't have a problem with it because (a) I don't think gamers are actually threatened by her words or need to be defended, and (b) if I was offended by her opinions, they would still just be opinions. There are people all over the place, most of them in fact, who I don't agree with, but I don't invest that much emotion in it.

I also think you're taking her epithets out of context. I read the article and I think she was sloppy with her invective, overlapping the people who are literally criminals with the larger community. However, the outrage inspired by her sloppy writing is orders of magnitude beyond what it warrants. She used "vile, decades old stereotypes" sure, but we're not talking about someone urging a Race War against black folks. The stakes just aren't that high.

And Kotaku didn't create the hashtag bullshit, they're just reporting on it. Their earlier and more substantial articles I think are perfectly fair.
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« Reply #94 on: October 20, 2014, 03:59:55 pm »

By what kind of fucked up logic does a violent threat against one person's talk validate viewpoints of an article written by another person a month before?

I never said any such fucking thing. I was stating that people saying "both sides are just as bad" are dumb and wrong, because on the one hand, the worst offense is a bunch of shitty bloggers banding together to say that gaming culture is dead, and on the other hand, the worst offense is threatening to murder someone for saying something they didn't like.
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« Reply #95 on: October 20, 2014, 06:12:17 pm »

Yes, social justice warriors never harass anyone.
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« Reply #96 on: October 20, 2014, 10:05:17 pm »

Quote from: Scott
However, the outrage inspired by her sloppy writing is orders of magnitude beyond what it warrants.
That does not make what she wrote any better. The original question that prompted my response was whether media outlets stereotype gamers. Leigh's article clearly does that, regardless of her other points. People who link to it and endorse it without any disclaimers do the same, albeit indirectly. And there are many other articles that repeat the same sentiments.

Quote from: Scott
The stakes just aren't that high.
Right now they aren't. However, if you don't challenge some ideas, they can achieve the status of "obvious" through mere repetition.

Quote from: Gregorus Prime
I never said any such fucking thing.
You made the comparison.

Quote from: Gregorus Prime
I was stating that people saying "both sides are just as bad" are dumb and wrong, because on the one hand, the worst offense is a bunch of shitty bloggers banding together to say that gaming culture is dead, and on the other hand, the worst offense is threatening to murder someone for saying something they didn't like.
At this point, people on both sides get harassed and receive death threats. I am in no position to judge which harassment is "worse". Neither are you. It is all pretty bad.

Moreover, this simply is not a valid argument. Going back to two-party analogy. If some right-wing nut shoots someone for a cause, would you use that to immediately declare Democrats being better than Republicans?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 01:55:55 am by Gambler » Logged
Imbecile
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« Reply #97 on: October 21, 2014, 01:44:09 am »

I'm going out on a limb and saying that the "gamergate" harassment is worse because there are multiple examples of individuals being forced to leave their home, stop working, or involving the police. Its absolutely a minority causing the problem, but its a minority using gamergate as cover and support. I'd be a lot more comfortable if these threats were more widely denounced by that community, rather than simply saying oh, its the internet, or SJWs are just as bad.
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« Reply #98 on: October 21, 2014, 09:13:48 am »

I could not agree more with Imbecile there.

Going so far as to give rape/murder threats is a disproportionate and a criminal offence. This is harming the gamergate cause more than it is helping it.
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« Reply #99 on: October 21, 2014, 10:12:42 am »

And for the record, Darkthia, I do not agree with a lot of what you said here either. I think you're overstating the importance of corruption to this whole thing and refusing to see the problems with tactics GamerGate initially employed, and some of its supporters still use. It would be far better if people stopped dragging that tag and Quinn into the fold. But neither do I think this completely invalidates everything you say.

I consider both the Monetary Corruption, the Political Blackballing/Nepotism and allowing journalists to report on their personal Friends to be including under the label "Corruption".

I'm also confused as to what tactics you and anyone else have an issue with that you think I'm Supporting?

Quote
I was stating that people saying "both sides are just as bad" are dumb and wrong, because on the one hand, the worst offense is a bunch of shitty bloggers banding together to say that gaming culture is dead, and on the other hand, the worst offense is threatening to murder someone for saying something they didn't like.

Let me quote myself a few posts back that people steadfastly ignored.

Quote
Lets not pretend that the Gamergate side is the only one engaging in that, or maybe you should look at the DDOS attacks on The Escapist or the fact that the originator of #notyourshield has been Doxxed and fired from his job by the SJWs. Milo Yiannopoulos was sent a filled needle in the mail. 

Per your argument, I'm sure these actions reflect upon the character and movement of your side, yeah?

You can Claim that Gamergate started with these tactics first, But you can't claim that the SJW side has the moral high ground.


Now, I'm not defending the people who do these criminal harassments (on either side), I'm only saying that the fact that SOME moronic and extreme members doing so does not invalidate the main argument.

As for the general community supporting the Harassers and asshats, here are 3 main community ads that i found in 5 minutes of looking:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0UcKfcIgAAZoed.png:large ----- Urges people to be respectful and polite

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bz-jnhzCcAAjpZ0.png:large ------ Same format, Urging people to be respectful and polite.

https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10649845_447495352056001_8264123092514627309_n.jpg?oh=7d6ca5d7a3a85a5f84390040af8acd5b&oe=54EAE3AF ------ Pretty self explanatory.

Exactly what more do you want than for people to openly and publicly disassociate themselves from the harassment and asshattery?
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« Reply #100 on: October 21, 2014, 11:05:28 am »

The two first ones are urging people to be polite and nice to completely different people than the ones that are being harassed and threatened to their lives. The third image looks like a pr image.
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« Reply #101 on: October 21, 2014, 12:18:12 pm »

The two first ones are urging people to be polite and nice to completely different people than the ones that are being harassed and threatened to their lives.

I'll give you that, There needs to be a concerted effort to Stop the harassment of EVERYONE involved. But to be fair, I really doubt the people who made those images would also support the harassment of Journalists as well. It does need to be clearly stated though.

Quote
The third image looks like a pr image.

I fail to see the point of that, Isn't everything done by a community as a whole a PR image? It's the community trying to disassociate themselves from the small vocal minority that IS Misogynistic and Criminal. Like I said, If thats not what you wanted then what exactly do you want?
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« Reply #102 on: October 29, 2014, 11:07:31 am »

For me, this takes the new crown for Best Piece Written About This Whole Fucking Mess:
http://www.popehat.com/2014/10/26/ten-short-rants-about-gamergate/

This guy has a history of opposing what he sees as silly tokenism and PC-ness in games and other cultural forms, so he does skewer both sides here. (This piece is also published on a site, Popehat, where the previous GamerGate coverage largely supported GamerGate, tho in a highly qualified and abstracted manner.) But he does a great job of calling out the logical fallacies and just plain ridiculousness that's going on, in clear language.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 11:11:35 am by suibhne » Logged
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« Reply #103 on: October 29, 2014, 11:52:16 am »

That's just it though: a bunch of people on both sides cherrypicking shit, stamping their feet and insisting they're right. Both sides are right about some things, but there isn't any debate or dialogue and I'm reasonably certain there won't ever be any between anyone calling themselves #Gamergate and the anti-harassment community (for want of a better descriptor). Gamergate is going to continue to come across as a bunch of squalling, nitpicking whiners. It's poisoned, you can't reclaim it. If you're serious about a dialogue, it's never going to happen under that hashtag.

One pro-tip for the Gamergate side: every time you use the expression Social Justice Warrior, or SJW, you completely deflate whatever it was you thought you were going to say. The shorthand only resonates with the people already on your side. It's also lazy and meaningless, which is what personally irritates me.
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« Reply #104 on: October 29, 2014, 12:55:37 pm »

One pro-tip for the Gamergate side: every time you use the expression Social Justice Warrior, or SJW, you completely deflate whatever it was you thought you were going to say. The shorthand only resonates with the people already on your side. It's also lazy and meaningless, which is what personally irritates me.

Yeah...to me, that label is impossible to use without implicitly making the claim that there's already enough social justice in the world. And that's so self-evidently nutty that I'm not sure how to react in any constructive way.

I appreciate that some folks here don't resort to that label.
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