Iron Tower Studio ForumsRPGThe Age of Decadence (Moderator: Vahha)A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
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« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2008, 12:38:50 pm »

Depends on your intelligence. I've never worked with astrolabes before, but I have some experience with sextants (I used to be a sailor), and I can assure you that it's not an intuitive and user-friendly instrument. I assume that astrolabes are even less user-friendly and require a lot more knowledge and understanding.
Sailor turned VP of Marketing turned RPG developer? That's some epic life you lived there.

Do you feel that a loremaster who can actually tell you what it is (did you click on that link?), should be able to teach you how to operate an astrolabe regardless of your INT? Why? Just curious.
Regardless of INT? No. But I assume astrolabes weren't made only for geniuses - you could have those with an intelligence of 6-7 or more be able to learn it, while INT 9-10 would be required for figuring it out yourself. Also, if you do that, you could have the first restriction in place even if you identify it yourself.

Edit: What do y'all think about the art and quality of icons?
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Vince
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« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2008, 01:00:12 pm »

Sailor turned VP of Marketing turned RPG developer? That's some epic life you lived there.
The sales thing happened unexpectedly. I worked my way up to office manager, asked for a raise one day, was told that people like me (unproductive scum) only cost money and that if I want to make money, I should bring some money to the company. I said that I'll give it a shot. They gave me a dying telemarketing department (it was dying, but nobody had time to fire all those people). I turned it around and that's when I discovered that I'm really good at selling and managing sales. I was a sales manager for a few years, then was offered a director of sales position in another place, gained some recognition in the advertising industry, and then got my current VP sales & marketing job.
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Ellorien
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« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2008, 01:50:45 pm »

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Do you feel that a loremaster who can actually tell you what it is (did you click on that link?), should be able to teach you how to operate an astrolabe regardless of your INT? Why? Just curious.

Yes, I clicked on the link.
What level of INT is required to learn things like that (being taught by the loremaster)? Is 6 enough? 7? 10? What if I have Int 6 and Lore 150? Can I identify the thing myself (to what end?)? If I have INT 10 but low Lore, would I be able to deduce its purpose? Like, "Aha! This is a mariner astrolabe intended to calculate astronomical latitude! Cool!!! Now I can navigate the oceans". Because "charting routes" was not a common purpose of an astrolabe before Columbus time (the common purpose was finding the time of day or night and making astrological forecasts), let alone brass astrolabes were medieval Muslims' invention. Still, I have nothing against navigational devices in AoD. I like the idea.

Yes, I think INT is important (it is my favorite stat, remember?) but it does not need to be high in order to learn how to operate an astrolabe in a game. It is not rocket science after all.

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What do y'all think about the art and quality of icons?

I am easy to please. The art is fine.

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... was told that people like me (unproductive scum) only cost money and that if I want to make money, I should bring some money to the company

Sounds like a Grifters Guildmaster's pep-talk.  Smile
« Last Edit: August 22, 2008, 01:53:34 pm by Ellorien » Logged

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« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2008, 02:35:22 pm »

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... was told that people like me (unproductive scum) only cost money and that if I want to make money, I should bring some money to the company

Sounds like a Grifters Guildmaster's pep-talk.  Smile

Or maybe that's the inspiration behind the ruthless Merchants Guild.
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Ellorien
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« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2008, 04:17:55 pm »

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... was told that people like me (unproductive scum) only cost money and that if I want to make money, I should bring some money to the company

Sounds like a Grifters Guildmaster's pep-talk.  Smile

Or maybe that's the inspiration behind the ruthless Merchants Guild.
And he became a Vice-Guildmaster! Scary stuff...

 
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High INT helps you figure out how it works and what the practical implications are. High Lore includes a crash course on astrolabes (you recall studying a treatise on astrolabes). Either INT or Lore is sufficient to work with the device.

Talking about INT and Lore - in AoD, "high lore" does not tell me much, because "high" could be 50, 200 or 300. Is 50 enough to recall that treatise? I assume "high Int" = 7 or higher and "very high" = 8 or higher. I am probably wrong.
I don't understand how one can figure out this allegedly complex instrument without prior knowledge of trigonometry and astronomy/astrology. INT without lore? No.
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Sleet
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« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2008, 04:21:19 pm »

Great idea! Maybe an entire manual written in this style? From different characters' point of view, of course. An Imperial Guardsman take on stats should be interesting.
Cool.
Lore and tidbits of info from characters in this format one can meet (and not) in game would add a great deal to the manual.
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Sleet
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« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2008, 04:26:39 pm »

Sailor turned VP of Marketing turned RPG developer? That's some epic life you lived there.
The sales thing happened unexpectedly. I worked my way up to office manager, asked for a raise one day, was told that people like me (unproductive scum) only cost money and that if I want to make money, I should bring some money to the company. I said that I'll give it a shot. They gave me a dying telemarketing department (it was dying, but nobody had time to fire all those people). I turned it around and that's when I discovered that I'm really good at selling and managing sales. I was a sales manager for a few years, then was offered a director of sales position in another place, gained some recognition in the advertising industry, and then got my current VP sales & marketing job.
Interesting, tried the sales role and found I was not made for it. I would have taken that dept. down the Styx. VIP computer support became my role, now have a team doing that.  Wink
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Vince
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« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2008, 05:50:51 pm »

I used to think that sales is for people who are too lazy to get an honest office job and do something useful like pushing papers and exchanging Excel spreadsheets with other people. I never thought that I could do well in sales and the last thing I wanted was to be in sales. However, that was my only advancement opportunity at that moment, so I had to take it and see what happens.

Sales is like a chess party. There are tactics and strategies. There are right moves and wrong moves. There are choices and consequences. And you have to think really fast and analyze situations even faster. Most people misunderstand sales and go there for the wrong reasons though. Anyway...

Talking about INT and Lore - in AoD, "high lore" does not tell me much, because "high" could be 50, 200 or 300. Is 50 enough to recall that treatise?
No. Since the max is 300, 50 doesn't qualify for "high".

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I assume "high Int" = 7 or higher and "very high" = 8 or higher. I am probably wrong.
Min INT is 4, so the real range is 4-10. We assume that anything under 4 represents people who are too weak or too stupid to handle the main quest. So, 8 is high, 9 is very high, and 10 means that you are a genius.

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I don't understand how one can figure out this allegedly complex instrument without prior knowledge of trigonometry and astronomy/astrology. INT without lore? No.
High INT does imply prior knowledge of many things. You can't be super smart and know nothing, can you? Lore implies specific knowledge since loremaster are often required to deal with old gadgets so they collect and study anything related to the old science. Many don't understand the underlying principles like trigonometry and astronomy, but they do know how to operate old devices.

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Hector
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« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2008, 07:05:45 pm »

Knowledge and Intelligence aren't always the same thing.  An idiot can be knowledgeable, he just won't be smart enough to put that knowledge to practical use.  At the same time, a Genius might not have had much by way of an education.  Personally, for something like that I'd probably make it a lore check with INT providing bonuses.  Someone with high intelligence (8+) with basic trigonometry and astrology under his belt (lore 50-60) should probably be able to figure it out.  By the same token, someone with low intelligence would require a high amount of lore (250-260) to figure out how something like that works.
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« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2008, 06:28:45 am »

From what I understand Lore only refers to the specific knowledge of history, machinery and such. Generic knowledge is covered by Mathematics.
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Sergei Quaid
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« Reply #40 on: August 23, 2008, 07:29:02 am »

Next ITS RPG about marketing?  Smile
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Villfarelse
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« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2008, 07:35:57 am »

Do you feel that a loremaster who can actually tell you what it is (did you click on that link?), should be able to teach you how to operate an astrolabe regardless of your INT? Why? Just curious.
I think that would be a good idea (well, perhaps not regardless of INT, but if it's lower than average). But it should also depend on the NPC in question. That Feng, for example, does not seem to be someone who would like to waste time teaching an "idiot" something like that.
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Palmer Eldritch
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« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2008, 09:20:34 am »

That Feng, for example, does not seem to be someone who would like to waste time teaching an "idiot" something like that.

Yeah, I think there should be someone who would be able to teach you, either as a reward for something, or for a price. There should still be some requirements, but perhaps just slightly lower than what's required for figuring it out for yourself. It shouldn't be easy to find this person who's willing to teach you though, maybe this would be reserved for a charismatic fellow? Options are always nice, but of course, everything should not be available for anyone.

Knowledge and Intelligence aren't always the same thing. 

True, but this is not the real world. If Vince decided that INT implies certain knowledge, than that's how the system works. I personally would consider the INT stat suitable for innate intelligence, and let skills represent what knowledge you've gained, exclusively. But the thing is, I'm suspecting that the assumption that INT = knowledge (to some degree) + understanding (or potential for learning), is something that shouldn't be changed at this point, as many things in the game have been designed with this in mind.

By the same token, someone with low intelligence would require a high amount of lore (250-260) to figure out how something like that works.

This would be very annoying. I'm assuming that the starting value of a skill is affected by its parent stat (correct me if I'm wrong, though), so a stoopid or mediocre INT-char would have to waste a lot of skill points to reach such a level. Let's say he did that, probably sacrificing a lot more suitable skills in the process, and then he can't even use the skill properly? Nah.
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Ellorien
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« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2008, 03:41:46 pm »

Why would anyone need Lore 250 to learn how to use the astrolabe??? People who don't know jack about electronics can operate electronic devices if they've read a manual or have been trained by instructors. Vince said even loremasters don't understand the underlying principles. They have read a few pages of the manual at best. If you pay a loremaster, he can show you how to rotate the parts. Not a big deal. All you need is average INT and money. A bit of basic education (Lore 101) won't hurt either.
However, expecting a smart but uneducated  person (High INT, no or minimal  Lore) who has no clue about trigonometry or astronomy to figure out celestial navigation is wishful thinking, IMO. My bet the genius will be wearing the "amulet" for some time before he begins to doubt Markus' claim.

That being said, of course Vince can make any assumption he wants. I am sure the stats will be explained in the manual.
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Granite
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« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2008, 10:48:08 pm »

Vince, a doubt has just poped into my mind... the first time I saw this pic, I thought that that machine was a kind of semi-mechanical, semi-magical device, with that "rite" thing being *required* to be recited, along with managing the physical controls in order to make the whole thing to work. And I liked that.
Now, however, I clearly see that it's a normal machine, and the "mantra" is just a step-by-spep manual.
Can you, please, clarify this?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 11:29:52 pm by Granite » Logged
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