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Max Roguespierre
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« Reply #210 on: September 29, 2018, 07:57:14 pm »

History shows that the unwashed masses have led most advances in human history.   Roll Eyes Wink Haha, no
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I know not what life is, nor death.
Year in year out-all but a dream.
Both Heaven and Hell are left behind;
I stand in the moonlit dawn,
Free from clouds of attachment.
Spyros
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« Reply #211 on: October 03, 2018, 04:21:00 pm »

Given the current world situation, by unwashed masses I mean people who do not have a bug-out mansion in New Zealand/Ireland/Iceland/wherever, fully stocked with all necessities and guarded. That's you (?) and me.
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Imbecile
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« Reply #212 on: October 04, 2018, 12:00:54 pm »

Problem is that I know a lot less about things than the experts in those fields. And I'm ok with that.

The risk of having both the evidence and the challenge given equal weight is that then it's very hard to know what to trust (I mean there are two sides to everything , who can say who is right!). This tends to result in a loss of belief in experts opinions, and more faith in people who tell you what you want to hear.

This leads to trump and Brexit.

I'm not saying that statements shouldn't be challenged, just that we need to weigh opinions according to expertise and credibility rather than treating them equally.

It's possible that when you say elites, you don't mean experts/decent politicians, and it's me reading into it, if so, sorry!
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 12:12:00 pm by Imbecile » Logged
Spyros
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« Reply #213 on: October 18, 2018, 02:35:01 am »

I'm not saying that statements shouldn't be challenged, just that we need to weigh opinions according to expertise and credibility rather than treating them equally.
[...]
It's possible that when you say elites, you don't mean experts/decent politicians

This does belong in the humour thread. Meanness aside, opinions should mainly be weighted by the interests behind them, and past performance. Not expertise, not credibility, which in the real world are mere labels bestowed by other humans (who are scammy or stupid).

And nope, I didn't mean experts or decent politicians. Who is in a position to tell those people what to do? Look at financing for starters. Your first thought about everything that's presented to your eyes, even by "coincidence", should really, really be "This cost money to put out. Where is the money coming from?".
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Wrath of Dagon
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« Reply #214 on: October 19, 2018, 10:42:06 pm »

This is what President Eisenhower said in his farewell address:

Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades.
In this revolution, research has become central, it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.

Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been overshadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.

The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present – and is gravely to be regarded.
Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.
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Secondly--MURDER? Merely because I had planned the duel and provoked the quarrel! Never had I heard anything so preposterous.
Imbecile
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« Reply #215 on: October 20, 2018, 08:14:30 am »

I'm not saying that statements shouldn't be challenged, just that we need to weigh opinions according to expertise and credibility rather than treating them equally.
[...]
It's possible that when you say elites, you don't mean experts/decent politicians

This does belong in the humour thread. Meanness aside, opinions should mainly be weighted by the interests behind them, and past performance. Not expertise, not credibility, which in the real world are mere labels bestowed by other humans (who are scammy or stupid).

And nope, I didn't mean experts or decent politicians. Who is in a position to tell those people what to do? Look at financing for starters. Your first thought about everything that's presented to your eyes, even by "coincidence", should really, really be "This cost money to put out. Where is the money coming from?".


To my mind past performance helps dictate credibility, as does the interests behind them. The issue I have increasingly is that people with no subject matter knowledge are given equal weighting to those that do.

The problem is that often the interests behind a view and past performance, all get buried beneath a deluge of selective statistics and conspiracy theory. When a society reaches the point where either its experts are untrustworthy, or it doesnt know which experts to trust it tends to result in really, really shitty decision making.
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Spyros
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« Reply #216 on: October 21, 2018, 07:26:50 am »

To my mind past performance helps dictate credibility, as does the interests behind them.
By what magical process? The goodwill of the people around you who pay attention to the issue under scrutiny? They do this for free, too? Are they as numerous as the ones paid to give credibility according to someone else's interests?

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The issue I have increasingly is that people with no subject matter knowledge are given equal weighting to those that do.
I'll be bold and interpret this as "For the first time, I've been exposed to new bullshit, instead of the usual bullshit I grew up with, and I don't like it.". Yes, that happens when a new political player arrives and starts wrestling the old one for control of the narrative. Do not assume that anyone with power, even on your side, will ever consider you an equal worthy of frankness. The sheep need to be told what gives the best results, and that's usually a lie. Realise that you would do the same if you are smart and the stakes were high enough.

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When a society reaches the point where either its experts are untrustworthy, or it doesnt know which experts to trust it tends to result in really, really shitty decision making.
"Experts" are this day's priests. They are always untrustworthy if you value truth. And "really, really shitty decision making"... for whom? Again with the childish assumption that we're all in this together. Today's apparent chaos profits some people who know very well what they are doing. And the show is just beginning. Did you notice the US Fed's rate hike? Tick, tock.
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