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Author Topic: Dialogue Options  (Read 19203 times)
deten
Neophyte

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« on: March 23, 2012, 12:53:43 pm »

Hi guys,

I literally heard about the game today (in Norway so its friday night), and without much research except "Turn Based Story Based RPG" I downloaded the demo!  After some play I am very excited to see where this goes Smile

I know, naturally, this is a beta.  I don't expect a final draft.  But after playing a bit I was a surprised by the lack of dialogue options.

Lets take an example, on my first night I decided to defend the merchent and was put up against the two thugs.  Fortunately I survived, but the man I was protecting did not.  I returned to the thieves den with the loot, and found out the thugs were part of the thieves guild and they want me to pay up the loot.  The game gives me one option: pay up.

This is a pivotal choice early on that can define your character.  Role playing, I am not one to give in to demands of thieves.  I would expect some of the following:

Pay up full
Offer to split the gold
Reject the thieves

Based on my charisma and skills, these should result in a few options, such as splitting the gold with relations lost, causing a fight and blocking all potential thief quests, etc.

Considering this was the first choice I made, I am hoping its not a taste of whats to come ( I stated I want this game to succeed, so please don't think I am attacking).

Please let me know if this was helpful at all Smile

D-
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 01:09:07 pm by deten » Logged
Vince
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2012, 01:14:47 pm »

This is a pivotal choice, early on that can define your character.  Role playing, I am not one to give in to demands of thieves.  I would expect some of the following:

Pay up full
Offer to split the gold
Reject the thieves

Based on my charisma and skills, these should result in a few options, such as splitting the gold with relations lost, causing a fight and blocking all potential thief quests, etc.
Now here is how I see it (which is why it was designed this way):

- you aren't forced to go back, it was your choice.
- you show up at the thieves guild (think 'bandits', not 'merry men') with their gold, not yours. They aren't splitting it with you, because it's not yours. You're just a bodyguard and they have done nothing to you and gave you a chance to walk away.
- if you are not one to give in to people who outnumber you, you will die. A lot. That's just common sense, really. So, why give you (wounded, I presume) an opportunity to take on a group of skilled fighters, if you're guaranteed to lose it?

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crrr
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2012, 01:24:05 pm »

This is a pivotal choice, early on that can define your character.  Role playing, I am not one to give in to demands of thieves.  I would expect some of the following:

Pay up full
Offer to split the gold
Reject the thieves

Based on my charisma and skills, these should result in a few options, such as splitting the gold with relations lost, causing a fight and blocking all potential thief quests, etc.
Now here is how I see it (which is why it was designed this way):

- you aren't forced to go back, it was your choice.
- you show up at the thieves guild (think 'bandits', not 'merry men') with their gold, not yours. They aren't splitting it with you, because it's not yours. You're just a bodyguard and they have done nothing to you and gave you a chance to walk away.
- if you are not one to give in to people who outnumber you, you will die. A lot. That's just common sense, really. So, why give you (wounded, I presume) an opportunity to take on a group of skilled fighters, if you're guaranteed to lose it?

I thought AoD was supposed to be all about C&C but it looks like all the convos and quests are rail-roaded. Too bad.  Huh?
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Fosse
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2012, 01:28:36 pm »

- if you are not one to give in to people who outnumber you, you will die. A lot. That's just common sense, really. So, why give you (wounded, I presume) an opportunity to take on a group of skilled fighters, if you're guaranteed to lose it?

Because it'd be hard?
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deten
Neophyte

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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2012, 01:35:59 pm »

Now here is how I see it (which is why it was designed this way):

- you aren't forced to go back, it was your choice.
- you show up at the thieves guild (think 'bandits', not 'merry men') with their gold, not yours. They aren't splitting it with you, because it's not yours. You're just a bodyguard and they have done nothing to you and gave you a chance to walk away.
- if you are not one to give in to people who outnumber you, you will die. A lot. That's just common sense, really. So, why give you (wounded, I presume) an opportunity to take on a group of skilled fighters, if you're guaranteed to lose it?



I respect that, and understand completely where your coming from.

There are some assumptions that can be made on how people act, and its essential. (such as because I return to the thieves den, I am interested in learning more about them)  But sometimes people do things for the exploration, not because they have a specific mindset such as the assumption you present.

However, that doesn't mean I am interested in giving them all my money.   I just spent my blood and sweat getting it all!  Why couldn't I lie to the thieves guild and say "What fight?  Merchant man is on his way nice and pretty", or just stay silent.  Hell why couldn't I get into a fight and lose?  

Naturally there should be immediate consequences.  Why cant my very charismatic character be able to weasle a bit of money out of this?  Hell, if I could kill 2 thieves by my lonesome, I am work a few pennies.

"Alright, you want to know about the thieves guild you gotta pay up the gold.  It ain't yours, and you were supposed to walk away"

"You want me to walk away for 1 gold?  I don't bite that easily.  We split it."  (Split the gold)

Based on Charisma and speech skills
Low Charisma/speech "You give me the fucking gold, and turn out of here.  You're in our home and you need to show some respect" (gives you another chance to hand over all the gold or a fight ensues where you (most likely) die. If you do give the gold, you are kicked out of the building or a fight ensues.)
Medium Charisma/Speech "You give me the fucking gold, and I forget you talked back to me.  This isn't a negotiation" (gives you another chance to turn over all the gold, potential loss in reputation with them)
High Charisma/Speech "Look, I can tell your an okay guy, doing his job and making a life.  I respect that, but if you think you can take whats mine, you're gonna hit a wall fast" (gives you another chance to turn over all gold, no loss in reputation OR agrees to split)

Hell, if I block a potential side-quest line, that just gives me a good reason to replay the game Smile
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 01:42:29 pm by deten » Logged
Vince
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2012, 01:52:58 pm »

I thought AoD was supposed to be all about C&C but it looks like all the convos and quests are rail-roaded. Too bad.  Huh?


- if you are not one to give in to people who outnumber you, you will die. A lot. That's just common sense, really. So, why give you (wounded, I presume) an opportunity to take on a group of skilled fighters, if you're guaranteed to lose it?
Because it'd be hard?
Because you'll have no chance to win this fight - none whatsoever. By including this fight we'll be implying that you can actually win it, which will lead to endless and rather pointless frustration.

As you can see, people are having a hard enough time fighting battles they can win. Why overcomplicate things by throwing fights they can't win at them?
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deten
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2012, 02:07:23 pm »

So lets say your right, and its impossible to win that fight.  That is 1 dialogue result.  In the end thats not sufficient reason to abandon all options and linearize one of the first decisions you make.

I'm not important in the world of AoD, and I am not trying to say I can do your job. I know jack squat about how to develop a game.  All I know is when I feel good and when I feel bad, and I hope that you can see what I am saying is not baseless.  Its okay for me to be "imperfect", and I don't want you to feel like you have to close down the game anytime I could potentially stray off the "ideal" path.

I know, this is one small discussion that doesn't have long lasting implications... but I still get irritated when I cant play my character Smile
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Vince
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2012, 02:15:52 pm »

But sometimes people do things for the exploration, not because they have a specific mindset such as the assumption you present.
The encounter design is realistic (for the lack of a better word). While it's a game and as a player you feel a bit like a tourist who wants to learn more, for your character it's the real deal and one mistake can easily lead to his/her death.

It's the middle of the night. You've just survived an ambush that's probably got something to do with the thieves guild. You aren't told that, but Vardanis brought you along for a reason. He's dead and you have his money. Going back to the thieves' den to ask some questions about their customs might not be a good idea at the moment.

Quote
Naturally there should be immediate consequences.  Why cant my very charismatic character be able to weasle a bit of money out of this?  Hell, if I could kill 2 thieves by my lonesome, I am work a few pennies.
Such is life.

Quote
"Alright, you want to know about the thieves guild you gotta pay up the gold.  It ain't yours, and you were supposed to walk away"

"You want me to walk away for 1 gold?  I don't bite that easily.  We split it."  (Split the gold)

Based on Charisma and speech skills
Persuasion isn't a magic trick. There should be some logic in it, some hook, some reason to give you half of their money. In this situation there is none. You have no leverage, you don't have a guild backing you up, and you can be easily killed.

Again, imagine this situation in real life. You killed two men. Impressive, but hardly a danger to the men in the tavern. The gold is theirs. No negotiations as you have nothing to offer. You want a job? It's yours, but that's as far as it goes.

Anyway, I'll add an option or two, explaining the situation better.
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Vahha
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2012, 02:19:03 pm »

I thought AoD was supposed to be all about C&C but it looks like all the convos and quests are rail-roaded. Too bad.  Huh?
I'm finding this railroad rather branched, with many dramatic turns, following to new complex forks and dramatic turns.
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“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”

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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2012, 02:35:23 pm »

I thought AoD was supposed to be all about C&C but it looks like all the convos and quests are rail-roaded. Too bad.  Huh?
I'm finding this railroad rather branched, with many dramatic turns, following to new complex forks and dramatic turns.
Railroading in AoD:
(click to show/hide)
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evilhyde
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2012, 02:47:43 pm »

This game has shitloads of c&c.  The thing with branching paths and options though, is you could keep writing more forever, and have to stop somewhere. This is one of those spots where the devs didn't see a good reason to add more.  Move on to the next scenario, I'm sure you will find plenty more to your taste.
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deten
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2012, 02:50:30 pm »

Quote
“My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer and I have my mind...and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone if it is to keep its edge. That's why I read so much Jon Snow. - Tyrion Lannister”

I could be one of few, but only rarely should a dialogue have only one option.  I would rather two options leading to the same result than 1 that takes my character out of his role.

Almost everything you have said is that a charismatic character is not a valid option in your head.  Why can't my charisma pursuade someone to split something because I am likeable, or smarter, or talk them into a deal?

Only because you say so Smile

This game has shitloads of c&c.  The thing with branching paths and options though, is you could keep writing more forever, and have to stop somewhere. This is one of those spots where the devs didn't see a good reason to add more.  Move on to the next scenario, I'm sure you will find plenty more to your taste.

You are 100% right, there is a limit to what a company can do based on funding.  You will not have a single person disagree with you.  But presenting the first dialogue options as only 1 choice just starts things off rough.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 02:56:49 pm by deten » Logged
Vince
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2012, 02:59:31 pm »

Almost everything you have said is that a charismatic character is not a valid option in your head.  Why can't my charisma pursuade someone to split something because I am likeable, or smarter, or talk them into a deal?

Only because you say so Smile
Not because I arbitrarily say so, but because I can't see why a gang leader, who has his reputation to uphold, will let you keep half of his money (or even a single coin), especially after you caused him damage by killing two of his men. Certainly, not because you're likeable or smart or talk well. Deal? I can't think of any.

At least, that's how I see the situation.
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crrr
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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2012, 03:10:34 pm »

How is a new player supposed to know that the Inn is the Thieves den? When you first get there, you are teleported there so you don't even know the location. What if a player accidentally walks there and then just has to give up the gold? I think there should atleast be the possibility to [dexterity] Run! or something. How does the gang leader even know it was you? Even if someone saw the fight, you could argue it wasn't you.

It's not the only place with only one dialogue option, though. I encountered quited a few frustrating dialogues where I was forced to choose an option I didn't want, such as one with Feng, where the only option was to pay him gold. Also when you get the map from the merchant, you can no choice but to tell your employer about the map.

The only "bugged" dialogue I found was with Gate guards. I was working with the Commercium and bribed the guards, and when I initiated conversation again, the option to pay them was still there.

Killing Militiates in conversation after killing his thugs doesn't give you +1 bodycount btw. After the whole incident I had killed 3 guys and my bodycount said 2.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 03:23:45 pm by crrr » Logged
Fryjar
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2012, 03:32:12 pm »

It's not the only place with only one dialogue option, though. I encountered quited a few frustrating dialogues where I was forced to choose an option I didn't want, such as one with Feng, where the only option was to pay him gold.

The game doesn't show you all the possible dialogue options that are possible in any situation. It will only display those, where your skill points come close to succeeding the roll. Therefore, it might seem to certain characters that there is only 1 option to solve a certain situation, while in reality there might be multiple ones.
Also, noone forces you to do all the main quests at once. There are several side quests throughout the town, where exploration is rewarded, so that you have the possibility to gain some stat points in order to tackle a situation in a different way.

« Last Edit: March 23, 2012, 03:37:39 pm by Fryjar » Logged
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