Iron Tower Studio ForumsRPGThe Shelter - Official Dead State Forum (Moderators: Brian, Caidoz, DrunkZombie, Christina, Jonathan, SunwardMold)3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
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Nazarene
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« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2012, 01:12:13 pm »


I'm not a fan of DRM, but I wouldn't release a game download on the honor system either.

but you should. If you're going to use kickstarter you will be collecting money from people who trust in you, too (possibly without DoubleBear providing a demo beforehand). Me likes the gog.com/W2/Banner Saga approach  Approve
Anyway your game will get pirated inevitably.
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Lexx
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« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2012, 01:27:25 pm »

Yup, it usually just takes a few hours till it's on the interwebs and playable, so DRM really has no effect other than annoying the ones who bought the game.
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wiande
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« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2012, 01:38:07 pm »

runign a pirate version on a computer is something that not everyone is able to do (true), so a drm version will prevent those click and play players to get pirated copies.
I know some people won't believe that, but just look at some pirate copies of big games on torrent, and you'll see that not everyone is able to follow pirating instructions.
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Brian
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« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2012, 01:43:18 pm »

Yup, it usually just takes a few hours till it's on the interwebs and playable, so DRM really has no effect other than annoying the ones who bought the game.

To clarify, there's a big difference between something like a generated redemption code for a DRM-free copy plus Steam activation code and a download page that can be accessed an unlimited number of times by anyone with the link. Sure piracy is going to happen, but if we can make it easy for legitimate patrons to access their copy and not end up making it really easy for just anyone to download the game (and kill bandwith, annoying legit users), that kind of works in our favor. Like I said, I don't want to get into the piracy debate, but there is a lot of data out there on how NOT to release DRM-free products.
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quasimodo
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« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2012, 02:41:10 pm »

Steam is DRM and I don't want it on any PC I use and my gaming PC is not hooked up to the internet.   

I would like to buy a hardcopy disc that I can install on any PC with a minimum of fuss, now and 10 years from now. 

If I have to download a game I do it at work, but I don't want any active program like Steam on my work PC.

I would be happy to give a lot of money to Kickstarter for Deadstate.  I gave $300 to Wasteland 2, but DRM is a big No Sale for me.

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Nerv
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« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2012, 02:48:20 pm »

To clarify, there's a big difference between something like a generated redemption code for a DRM-free copy plus Steam activation code and a download page that can be accessed an unlimited number of times by anyone with the link.

That makes sense, you will not stop determined pirates by using a login system or limiting the amount of downloads per redemption code, but at least it will not cost you on bandwidth.

I agree that we shouldn't go into the Piracy/DRM debate any deeper here, especially since you have already stated your intention to release DRM free.
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Tuco Benedicto Pacifico
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« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2012, 02:54:07 pm »

Steam is DRM and I don't want it on any PC I use and my gaming PC is not hooked up to the internet.  
Steam is mostly perceived as a service and only in second stance as a DRM, and rightfully so, as there are many good reasons to justify this perception.
For a start, unlike shit like Securom or TAGES, Steamworks integration doesn't install stealth drivers in your system. It just uses encrypted data until the first activation.

That said, I'll leave you with your idiosyncrasies.

For those so vocally advocating for Desura, on the other hand, i'd like to quote Puppy Games (Revenge of The Titans' developers):

Quote
This part of the post is likely to attract all manner of hate and flames, but it has to be said: Desura wasn’t working for us. We spend just as much time and stress figuring out how to release software on the Desura platform as Steam, but unfortunately make literally 1/1000th of the money. So little in fact I don’t think Desura have even managed to pay us any money yet. It doesn’t make sense for us to support Desura any more, and so we’re not. Don’t get me wrong – it’s a great client, their hearts are in the right place, but… we’re on Steam.

So my humble apologies to anyone with their eggs in the Desura basket. Contact us if you’ve got any issues.

As DRM-free services I would say that GoG or gamersgate sound way more appealing as commercial partners.
The truth, in any case, is that Steamworks integration (with all the features that come with it) is probably the only "DRM" that increases the popularity of a game and its sales, instead of hurting them.
For a lot of people today Steam achievements, cloud saving and Steam community features (for multiplayer games) are a PLUS to buy a game.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 02:59:14 pm by Tuco Benedicto Pacifico » Logged
wiande
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« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2012, 04:47:49 pm »

i second that  Approve (you made my point in a better english that i would've ever been able to)
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Nerv
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« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2012, 05:09:49 pm »

Steam is DRM and I don't want it on any PC I use and my gaming PC is not hooked up to the internet.  
Steam is mostly perceived as a service and only in second stance as a DRM, and rightfully so, as there are many good reasons to justify this perception.
For a start, unlike shit like Securom or TAGES, Steamworks integration doesn't install stealth drivers in your system. It just uses encrypted data until the first activation.

That said, I'll leave you with your idiosyncrasies.

Totally agree on the Steam stuff.


For those so vocally advocating for Desura, on the other hand, i'd like to quote Puppy Games (Revenge of The Titans' developers):

Quote
This part of the post is likely to attract all manner of hate and flames, but it has to be said: Desura wasn’t working for us. We spend just as much time and stress figuring out how to release software on the Desura platform as Steam, but unfortunately make literally 1/1000th of the money. So little in fact I don’t think Desura have even managed to pay us any money yet. It doesn’t make sense for us to support Desura any more, and so we’re not. Don’t get me wrong – it’s a great client, their hearts are in the right place, but… we’re on Steam.

So my humble apologies to anyone with their eggs in the Desura basket. Contact us if you’ve got any issues.

Puppy games are just one developer, their only game on Desura was Attack of the Titans, which many people had already bought through the humble bundle. I would bet good money this is the main reason for lack of sales: There is a huge overlap of HIB customers and Desura users.

Desura is also very easy to maintain. I'm not advocating it instead of Steam, but in addition (and possibly as a source for the DRM free version):

Quote from: Gaslaplamp Games
I really love Desura as a platform; from the developer’s perspective, they have some of the best and cleanest tools in the business. Packaging a Dredmor build is as easy as pointing it at the build and going “here, off you go.” I love it, and I wish all our Linux customers would use it because it makes my life so easy and wonderful. By contrast, updating the Humble Bundle Build is an exercise in pain and frustration. (Steam is somewhere between the two.)
http://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?threads/exclusive-interview-with-gaslamp-games.750/

Also Desura is fast becoming the goto place for Linux gamers. It is the only cross distro-store, which makes it easy to target all distros with minimal effort. Which alas... is only relevant if there will be a Linux release. But I really hope so, and it seams to be a good financial decision in models such as Kickstarter which allow customers to set their own price (see HIB statistics or comments on Kickstarter for W2, DFA)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 05:12:39 pm by Nerv » Logged
Fuzzman009
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« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2012, 05:10:11 pm »

Also de-lurking to voice my excitement to contribute to this project.

-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

Some peaks into the mechanics behind the combat would be nice, like how well a particular build handles particular weapons, buffs and debuffs, things like that.

A case example of dealing with the group dynamics in the shelter would be awesome - like all the steps from

1. Finding out a plot against you
2. Seeing ways to deal with the situation
3. Confronting the people involved
4. The result of your choices.


-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)


16-18 months sounds good, I wouldn't mind if it took longer if bugs needed to be worked out (and we were told why/could see from the state of the beta).

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

Digital art work would be nice and a big box with an old school thick manual to wade through would be amazing but I understand that could be prohibitively expensive.

Depending on the pricing I would love to be able to blow myself up in-game  Smile.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

Bi-monthly would be good
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« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2012, 05:18:59 pm »

Sorry, a bit off-topic, but I'm seeing many guys/girls who have been lurking here, making an account now to have a say. (including myself)
That ought to inspire Smile
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Brian
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« Reply #86 on: March 21, 2012, 05:29:38 pm »

Sorry, a bit off-topic, but I'm seeing many guys/girls who have been lurking here, making an account now to have a say. (including myself)
That ought to inspire Smile

We have noticed and it's awesome. We really appreciate it.

Depending on the pricing I would love to be able to blow myself up in-game  Smile.

That actually made me laugh out loud. Something to keep in mind as a reward...
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SXX
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« Reply #87 on: March 21, 2012, 05:53:34 pm »

I disagreee too,
1. it's now or never, you would be able to support both games as a kickstarter project usualy last at least 35 days or something like that, means you can contribute in the next month.
2. correct me if i'm wrong but Desura isn't secure if you want to sell games, better doing it through steam once it's released, cause through desusa, you just have to give everyone your key to the game to play which is the best way to have your game pirated (again correct me if i'm wrong)
1 - I spend lot on Wasteland, so I don't sure I'll have enough money.
I don't mean to wait long time, but as minimum before Wasteland 2 will be funded.
2 - Steam never helped to protect anything.
DRM its only way to fight against users who want to pay money.  Roll Eyes

And also there is no possible DRM for Linux (only Direct Rendering Manager) so I ask for Desura as alternative for Steam.
I paid $1000 to Wasteland 2 to have DRM-free Linux version and I sure I'm not alone with that.
Add anything like DRM to the game when some people paid lot of money not seems like a good idea.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 06:00:29 pm by SXX » Logged
Goweigus
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« Reply #88 on: March 21, 2012, 07:22:33 pm »

Requiring steam would also help set up the Dead State community for the multiplayer expansion pack Tongue

*Anything more than a key code or steam activation is too much DRM
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skuphundaku
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« Reply #89 on: March 21, 2012, 08:08:44 pm »

I disagreee too,
1. it's now or never, you would be able to support both games as a kickstarter project usualy last at least 35 days or something like that, means you can contribute in the next month.
2. correct me if i'm wrong but Desura isn't secure if you want to sell games, better doing it through steam once it's released, cause through desusa, you just have to give everyone your key to the game to play which is the best way to have your game pirated (again correct me if i'm wrong)
1 - I spend lot on Wasteland, so I don't sure I'll have enough money.
I don't mean to wait long time, but as minimum before Wasteland 2 will be funded.
2 - Steam never helped to protect anything.
DRM its only way to fight against users who want to pay money.  Roll Eyes

And also there is no possible DRM for Linux (only Direct Rendering Manager) so I ask for Desura as alternative for Steam.
I paid $1000 to Wasteland 2 to have DRM-free Linux version and I sure I'm not alone with that.
Add anything like DRM to the game when some people paid lot of money not seems like a good idea.
I'm in the same boat here. Well, I spent just $250$350 (forgot the $100 I contributed to the RPG Codex $10,000 WL2 pledge) on WL2, but when you add up the $250 for The Banner Saga and the $100 for the Double Fine Adventure, I'm getting close to SXX's $1k. I wouldn't have even considered pledging, were it not for the DRM-free offers and Linux support. For all the people thinking that Steam is acceptable, I suggest documenting yourselves a bit better on the issues regarding DRM. It's not just about it being intrusive or not. It's about being able to play with or without an internet connection. It's about not having your bought and paid for games held hostage by Steam, which could take them all away on a whim (if you don't believe me, go read the EULA and then google some horror stories). It's about being able to install and play the game 10 years later, on a computer without an Internet connection, or after Valve went bankrupt and closed Steam down. And don't bother claiming that "Valve will never go bankrupt, Steam will be forever!" because stranger things have happened, and what you consider set in stone today may seem like a childish illusion tomorrow.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 08:51:00 pm by skuphundaku » Logged
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