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Anonxeuix
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2012, 07:37:47 AM »

Well, they don't have their priorities straight, they have them gay smug


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MaximillionMiles
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« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2012, 08:01:32 AM »


What I DO have a problem, frankly, is with poor writting.

I'm sorry to do this but let me just bask in the irony of this sentence a bit. It's... it's just great.   Smile

Whoops.  Neutral Hoisted on my own petard.
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EleventhHour
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« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2012, 09:00:23 AM »

While I don't hate her for not liking games (meh, to each his own, you don't enjoy it, no problem) I feel like she's interjecting some kind of (gay) agenda in someplace it does not belong to.

She's just a person who finds homosexuality exciting and wants to write about it, it's not a conspiracy.
She does this as a means of living, not just as a hobby. She is not writing fan fiction.

The end purpose is sales. And the means is a gimmick to make sales. And the gimmick here is sex.

So Midnight Sun is correct. There is an agenda here. The agenda is one that involves using a particular sexual niche for business opportunism.

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Besides, why wouldn't gay people or homosexuality belong in computer games?
I feel his point is more easily made, if Midnight Sun said it is atypical to involve sexual orientation in games. After all, did Pools of Radiance, Anvil of Dawn, or Divine Divinity involve any such thing? Nope.
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Palmer Eldritch
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« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2012, 09:05:36 AM »

Hm, I haven't played the Mass Effect games, or Dragon Age for that matter, but it seems to me that homosexuality is dealt with in a rather shallow and unimaginative way. I get the impression that they are catering to the desires of their fanbase, rather than trying to do something meaningful or say something important.

For example, she mentions that they were working on a "coming out" storyline for the protagonist of Mass Effect. Now, why would a fictional society, a sci-fi setting, even require such a thing? If they really wanted to push the envelope, why couldn't homosexuality be the norm? But no, instead, it works exactly as in our world; homosexuality is a matter of deviancy, etc.

I get the impression that the developers and the gaming media are painting this as something progressive, when it's just a matter of business opportunism, as EleventhHour put it.
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Vince
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« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2012, 11:02:52 AM »

Does Shepard have personalities (for different possible characters)? No, he doesn't. Did Mass Effect have depth and maturity? Nope. But I'm so happy that ME3 will include an entire chapter dedicated to coming out and people reacting to it. I'm glad they have their priorities straight.

Well, they don't have their priorities straight, they have them gay smug
lol

First, nobody's stopping her from writing about homosexuality, but are fantasy games an appropriate media for exploring this exciting subject?

Why wouldn't they be? Do homosexuality belong in some sort of special media?
It does - in a serious media that can explore it in a mature and appropriate way. Not in a "My name is Shepard, I kill aliens, bang everything that has a hole, which, naturally, includes men! Fuck yeah, let's kill some aliens ... and fuck them after!" way.

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I never said it wasn't, or that I liked her writing. I was responding to MidnightSun's statement of "homosexuality not belonging" in RPG's or videogames or whatever.
I'd say RPGs, especially shooter stuff like ME, aren't the right media to explore any relationships, other than camaraderie. Everything else - homosexual, heterosexual, daddy issues, deadly venereal diseases, the Oedipus complex, father and son relationships, etc - doesn't belong there.

There are no romances in AoD. I merely assume that your character will find something to fuck.

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Does it matter whether a character is black or white, or how his appearance is like at all? No? Then why do so many games offer such intricate appearance modifiers at character creation?
Because they don't offer anything else?

It's a lot easier to throw in some beards and hairstyles than give a robust stat- and skill- system. It's nothing and it's forgotten (by the game and writers) as soon as your character is created, unlike sex stuff. I don't recall ever reading something like - "Hey, nice beard, handsome. Wanna talk about it?"

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For the same reason, people want to play different characters, even if most of their characterization is in their own heads. That's why people don't want to be forced to play heterosexual characters.
Well, that's the thing. Unlike the fluff stuff like skin color and hair, which cost nothing, in order for you to play a hetero or homosexual character, content must be created. So, the moment you decide to add this meaningful feature, you start wasting resources on romances, gay characters for you to bond with (and you need more than one, because maybe your tastes run into a different direction), etc.

Do we really need it? Do gay guys need it? I'm straight and I like women, but I can easily play a game without thinking - even for a moment - if my character is straight enough and who he is supposed to fuck in this game. It's not what RPGs are about.

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And seriously, why does it even have to be "relevant" for it to be passable to you? Why does homosexuality need a reason, while heterosexuality doesn't?
I prefer to see neither in games. I prefer developers not wasting any time on creating sex-related content.

Other than that, the majority of population is straight (90-95% according to Google), so creating a "straight" world doesn't cost you anything extra in terms of time and resources. You place male and female characters around and voila - a straight world. It's implied that they fuck and that everyone's ok with it.

Throw in a gay character and now you HAVE to fit him into the world, show how the world react and if it doesn't, explain why. We aren't talking about 50/50 here, we're talking about 90/10 at best, if not 95-97/3-5. While heterosexuality can be taken for granted, homosexuality shouldn't. In my humble opinion.
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Gregorus Prime
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« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2012, 02:31:03 PM »

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It's nothing she doesn't bring on herself. If she was a decent writer then she'd have respect. Instead she writes shit and allowed herself to be thrust into the limelight.

Which justifies criticizing her writing, not her weight. That kind of attack just destroys the credibility of the attacker, not their target.

If I have no problem making fun of the weight of Gabe Newell, who I actually have a lot of respect for, then I'm damn sure not going to give the Hamburglar a pass. Plus, I'm fat myself, so I have fat joke privileges.
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Anonxeuix
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« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2012, 02:38:20 PM »

Can't argue with fat joke privileges. You are dismissed.
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Gareth
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« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2012, 02:39:54 PM »

This is true, it's well know that fatties are allowed to call other fatties "fatty" if they want.
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MidnightSun
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« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2012, 03:26:04 PM »

Oops, I came out like a douchebag. Luckily Gregorus Prime takes the heat from me here Grin I don't really have a problem with it, it just seems somewhat cheap and out of place. I really don't think the decision to include homosexual relationship came as a design or a story choice, it probably wasn't a natural flow decision. It was likely entered there for the buzz. "Hey, we should make a gay scene in the game!". And then they did it. I doubt it streamlined from some kind of natural creative process.

That being said I did not enjoy any romance options in Mass Effect 2 nor did I pick any of them. At one point when Miranda and that bald chick were fighting I thought "oh this is pretty cool, finally some kind of roleplay choice". Turns it, it was about choosing who "ya gonna hit it with".

Here's the view I got. You approach a character, namely an interest. On the first encounter they're "shy". Is this supposed to tell the player they have big crush on you? You might interpret it this way sure, but it can mean absolutely anything. Hell, I'm shy asking for a check in a pizza place if I can't recall who my waitress was exactly. The second encounter is a completely platonic personal mission. You do a mission which advances her (or his) plot. That's pretty much it. Which goes right into the third encounter where...basically the following scheme is due.

1. Sex?
-1a Yes.
-1b No, I'm with someone else.

I mean, if you're gonna come on me at least provide some sort of foreplay. You can't just drop me from the sink into the boiling water. The whole romance thing in Mass Effect 2 felt strange and unnatural.

That being said I dont mind relationship, whether heterosexual or homosexual (I'm not gonna preach about equality here, I shouldn't have to) in a video game. It's an interesting theme to explore if just mildly, but I would trust very few people (and Vince) to do it right. I quite liked Raven hinting at feelings before entering The Void in Arcanum. I'm not sure why I felt connection to her, though. Maybe I was just a horny 15 year-old. Probably.
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Calego
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« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2012, 03:59:45 PM »

It'll be interesting to see whether Bioware's new direction pans out. My understanding of their stories is that, as fairly basic power fantasies, they are successful. But there's also been a steadily increasing amount of writing focused on emotional hysterics and romantic bootlicking. Is that really what Bioware's audience wants? Power fantasies are about POWER, and having power means not caring what other people think. (In psych, high status males do very little social monitoring; avoiding conflict is left up to women and low status males.) Any nonsense about Shepard needing to assuage people's insecurities, Shepard needing to spend hours macking on prospective mates, Shepard needing to have his sexuality validated by subordinates—it all runs counter to the basic appeal of the fantasy.

If this is what the audience wants ... I dunno.
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MaximillionMiles
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« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2012, 05:23:28 PM »

It'll be interesting to see whether Bioware's new direction pans out. My understanding of their stories is that, as fairly basic power fantasies, they are successful. But there's also been a steadily increasing amount of writing focused on emotional hysterics and romantic bootlicking. Is that really what Bioware's audience wants? Power fantasies are about POWER, and having power means not caring what other people think. (In psych, high status males do very little social monitoring; avoiding conflict is left up to women and low status males.) Any nonsense about Shepard needing to assuage people's insecurities, Shepard needing to spend hours macking on prospective mates, Shepard needing to have his sexuality validated by subordinates—it all runs counter to the basic appeal of the fantasy.

If this is what the audience wants ... I dunno.

I always understood the whole romance thing as, if not a power fantasy then simple wish-fulfillment.  "Yeah, I boned a hot Asari/sweet and exotic Quarian/woman that looks like Michael Jackson! Go, me!" That kind of thing. And women generally enjoy the whole romantic pairing game, so I guess that's good for both of them.

As for this new development... I honestly don't know. The only portion of the fanbase that could like this whole thing, I think, is the female slashing/yaoi demographic and I've no idea how big it is. Space opera fans and most men in general will probably take a dim view of grafting a coming out of the closet storyline in their epic sci-fi RPG.

Between DA2, SW:TOR (which I doubt will be the success they were expecting, especially as users get tired of the content and start moving to the next experience) and now this weird ME3, I fear for Bioware's future. Oh, it's easy to lambast them for their failings and for dumbing down things, but if the biggest AAA RPG developer sinks, they might make publishers even more wary of other RPG projects and bring the whole market down even further, and that can't be good. Sad
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Priapist
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2012, 07:49:32 AM »

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"Hey, nice beard, handsome. Wanna talk about it?"

That'd better be an actual line in AoD.  lol

This whole thing sounds like a gimmick to me. I've read mainstream media articles talking about how the gay elf in Dragon Age 2 offended straight players because of his strong sexual advances, and offended gay players because he's a caricature of some stereotypical gay sexual predator that only exists in the mind of fearmongering homophobes and 'The L Word' scriptwriters.

But, it got exposure in mainstream media because of the controversy. Somewhere down the line, someone figured out that getting Mass Effect featured in a hilarious episode of Fox News caused a spike in sales, and now they're peddling controversy with all the integrity of the guy who tried so hard with the Human Centipede movies.

And that's offensive, even moreso than the idea that Ron Weasley/Dean Winchester slashfiction is somehow more current and relevant than the work of old white guys. It's making me fondly yearn for simpler times when roleplaying a gay character meant turning the dialogue wheel to "Admire" over and over when you talked to members of the same sex.

Oh and incidentally, that whole "up to you to reason and educate against prejudice blah blah blah" bit is pretty dreadful. Why should the only option be the obvious good guy route? What if I'd rather enslave heterosexuals with necromancy? The whole power of the medium is choice. She sounds like someone who doesn't get games and wants them to be more like the things she does enjoy. Like yaoi slashfics of characters from various pop culture trash that's currently popular with lonely women.
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erbgor
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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2012, 09:02:06 AM »

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"Hey, nice beard, handsome. Wanna talk about it?"

That'd better be an actual line in AoD.  lol

This whole thing sounds like a gimmick to me. I've read mainstream media articles talking about how the gay elf in Dragon Age 2 offended straight players because of his strong sexual advances, and offended gay players because he's a caricature of some stereotypical gay sexual predator that only exists in the mind of fearmongering homophobes and 'The L Word' scriptwriters.

But, it got exposure in mainstream media because of the controversy. Somewhere down the line, someone figured out that getting Mass Effect featured in a hilarious episode of Fox News caused a spike in sales, and now they're peddling controversy with all the integrity of the guy who tried so hard with the Human Centipede movies.

And that's offensive, even moreso than the idea that Ron Weasley/Dean Winchester slashfiction is somehow more current and relevant than the work of old white guys. It's making me fondly yearn for simpler times when roleplaying a gay character meant turning the dialogue wheel to "Admire" over and over when you talked to members of the same sex.

Oh and incidentally, that whole "up to you to reason and educate against prejudice blah blah blah" bit is pretty dreadful. Why should the only option be the obvious good guy route? What if I'd rather enslave heterosexuals with necromancy? The whole power of the medium is choice. She sounds like someone who doesn't get games and wants them to be more like the things she does enjoy. Like yaoi slashfics of characters from various pop culture trash that's currently popular with lonely women.

Hey, I remember you. Weren't you that guy who usually made a whole lot of sense? Good that you're back. Nailed it.


Oh and I am much more pissed about her discriminating against games than homosexuals. smug
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Gareth
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2012, 09:17:14 AM »

I had to google what "slashfic" was. Now I know.  Confused
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Villfarelse
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« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2012, 11:50:22 AM »

Oops, I came out like a douchebag.

Don't worry about it, now that you've clarified what you said I agree with the majority of it. The seemingly "homosexuality have no place in my games" statement got very suspicious, is all, given the rampant homophobia in gamer culture.
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