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Author Topic: 11/8 Monday Design Update - No Cars Go  (Read 12963 times)
Scott
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« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2010, 12:05:36 PM »

A small point I'd like to make regarding map-based travel:
Cars are obviously much faster than traveling on foot...

Please break the mold and have quick map travel regardless of what type of transportation is being used.  I'm fine with cars being faster, in the abstract, and all the advantages that go with it, but don't make traveling from one location to another on foot take longer in real time just to illustrate that cars are better. Otherwise, it all sounds great!  Have you considered JA2's repair model for things like automobile maintenance?
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Oscar
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« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2010, 12:10:42 PM »

Actually, for me it's much better to have them travel at the same, fast speed, in real time (I don't like instant teleportation), and affect how fast or slow the clock moves. So with cars, less time will pass, while walking will consume more "time".
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Caidoz
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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2010, 03:24:53 PM »

Also, for usable cars, if it should run out of gas somewhere out in the field, is that the end of it, or will it remain there until someone comes back with gas for it?  Can it be stolen?
It can't be stolen. You may have to abandon it OR we could try to put in a restriction on your travel based on your fuel - that is, you will only be able to select a location that will allow for a return trip. How do you all feel about that?

Maybe both?  If you need to abandon your car you should have the option, but if you have some kind of fuel gauge on the car, and you know how far you're going, you could plan ahead and figure out where you can get to while retaining enough gas for a return trip.  I do like the ideas suggested earlier though, that you've got a choice to override the warning that you might not have enough fuel to get back to the Shelter.  That way you could risk the car on the hopes that you'll find a gas station; a bit of added realism.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 03:29:02 PM by Caidoz » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2010, 08:45:24 PM »

I like the idea of the low fuel warning, but not a restriction on travel.

But, if you do have to abandon your car, I'd like for it to stay marked on the map as a location you can return to with fuel. Especially considering you might have a trunk full of loot that you can't carry back in one go.
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skavenhorde
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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2010, 09:27:07 AM »

Actually, for me it's much better to have them travel at the same, fast speed, in real time (I don't like instant teleportation), and affect how fast or slow the clock moves. So with cars, less time will pass, while walking will consume more "time".

I did not mind the Fallout type of map travel where you go faster with a car and slower without it. The terrain also affected your traveling speed. I want to be able to explore the map and hate "teleporting". Where's the exploration if you just teleport to the location.

Your idea doesn't sound so bad though. However, I would add that terrain should have some kind of effect on the timer as well.
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Scott
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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2010, 12:38:54 PM »

I'm not suggesting teleportation type travel, but what Oscar said.  I don't like game mechanics where the player is punished by animations arbitrarily taking up real time.  Example:  in NWN when you chose to rest, you had to sit and watch an animation play for thirty seconds of your characters resting.  The developer no doubt thought it was perfectly reasonable to make someone wait for 30 seconds to represent 8 hours passing.  It is reasonable, the first time, but after watching it 20 or 100 times it grinds.

So let's say there's a location you're going to visit often and you need to travel there on the overland map.  If the overland map is shown for 10 or 20 seconds, or however long it takes for the player to register what's going on, track the move and open up the option of travel being interrupted, that's great.  But if it takes 10 seconds in your Porsche, but it takes 30 seconds on foot, you're (IMO) wasting the player's time with a lazily implemented abstraction.  Just have the clock tick by faster if you're on foot.  I imagine it's easier to code that way anyway.
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Goweigus
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2010, 01:36:20 PM »

Considering all the junk cars and other road blocks, a car shouldn't be able to make you travel on the map so much faster than on foot that not taking a car becomes an annoying long wait. Especially when you take into consideration that you can't make camp out in the field so your travel distance is very limited (making the car travel map animation thing even less of an issue).

My vote is in for vehicular travel taking less Real Life time than walking. But I do suppose that would take more development time than simply changing the rate at which in game time passes.
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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2010, 07:44:08 PM »

Oscar's way sounds the best.  Fallout travel didn't bother me too much since even on foot you moved fairly rapidly across the map, which boils down to almost the same thing.
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« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2010, 02:08:27 PM »

Also, for usable cars, if it should run out of gas somewhere out in the field, is that the end of it, or will it remain there until someone comes back with gas for it?  Can it be stolen?
It can't be stolen. You may have to abandon it OR we could try to put in a restriction on your travel based on your fuel - that is, you will only be able to select a location that will allow for a return trip. How do you all feel about that?

A restriction might be a step too far - but a warning would be nice, and maybe a toggle or some such so that the player can decide to set it so he or she cannot pick a trip that goes too far.

I like the idea of being able to, if you really mean it, travel too far in the car and have to abandon it if you don't find fuel at your destination.  But with a glaring warning telling the player such will happen, and maybe the ability to not accidentally do it ever (via a toggle.)
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 02:11:10 PM by MerinTB » Logged
CanadianWolverine
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« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2010, 01:27:20 PM »

Has anyone pointed out how noisy car engines are, especially in less than ideal situations? Seeing as sound draws the zombies attention...

Not saying you would have more encounters in the field, but I do think that it could possibly draw more attention to the home base. More zombies there are following that sound home and swarming around the exits/entrances, that certainly wouldn't make things easy, correct?

You know what would be awesome? If there was a special vehicle one could build or find that had electric motors and a variety of sources of power because of variable power plant feeding the batteries. Solar powered dune buggy kind of deal? Pedal power? Alternate fuels? There is more than one way to generate the electricity needed to run the motors. Heck, doesn't even have to be a car, could be a motorcycle / electric bicycle for getting through those tight spots, even though a buggy (about the size of a golf cart) isn't that much bigger. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if one of the branches of the US military had some vehicles like this for low resource situations with one of its many Military Industrial complex contracts.

Heck, IRL I'm not a rich man by any stretch, and I have modified a touring bicycle with a number of saddle bags (had plans to add a cart to the back) transport my groceries. Cost me $40, used. Turned hour long walks where I could get at most 4 bags (One in each hand, 2 in the large back pack) of groceries into 10 minute joy rides where I could transport up to 8 bags of groceries (10 if I felt like risking hanging the bags from the handle bars too). With a cart pulled behind probably I could have increased that further. And this was in some pretty steep, narrow, and off road terrain here in BC in poor weather conditions (dressed appropriately and bags are water proofed).
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Goweigus
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« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2010, 04:32:04 PM »

unfortunately this game will not be featuring bicycles

but as far as pedal power goes... there is at least 1 mode of travel the devs have teased us with by saying that it doesn't involve traveling on foot or by motor vehicle.

could be a petal powered glider? who knows!?
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GTFO
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« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2010, 05:28:44 PM »

@ CanadianWolverine
good notice on the car engine sound, it should draw attention when you arrive the area to scavenge, but it certainly should not attract zombies home... the car is fast, zombies are slow Wink

=> Walking
+ silent (assuming the party always arrive silently to the area)
+ no fuel cost
+ good for your health (just joking here :p)
- takes time, therefore you can't go as far, you're limited to the areas that you can scavenge
- you have no quick way to escape an area

=> Driving
- noisy, it increases the chances of a zombie party time
- fuel cost
- global warming (I'm such a funny guy ain't I  Haha, no )
+ fast, you can go to areas more distant
+ you can bring heavy supplies that you couldn't otherwise
+ provides a quick way to escape a dangerous conflict

I don't know if you're implementing a fatigue attribute in the PC/NPCs, but if the answer is yes, this should really be factored in. (offtopic: I have to say I'd prefer a fatigue system over an HP system... they're kind of the same, but not really)
Additionally, you can factor morale as well. If you're driving you have all the reasons to feel better (you are less tired, you feel safer, you can rock on all the way).

I think all of these factors could be used to reward/punish the player, instead of the wall-time punishment that Scott said it felt like grinding.
I also think adding bicycles would be really cool. They would be kind of an hybrid between walking and driving (in terms of features) and would add to the value and realism of gameplay, at the cost of some mere handful of new 3D models.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 05:31:31 PM by GTFO » Logged
The Pink Zombie
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« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2010, 11:35:21 AM »

Does the fuel have other uses?

Namely powering or warming the stronghold?

Or making Molotov cocktails or napalm?
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Oscar
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« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2010, 12:03:11 PM »

Fuel is essential to power the shelter’s generator and is also used as a component in the construction of many items. Fuel costs can be offset by Mechanical ability.
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Joseph
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« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2010, 05:19:28 PM »

Has anyone pointed out how noisy car engines are, especially in less than ideal situations? Seeing as sound draws the zombies attention...

Just got an image of driving somewhere and then after you've looted a house turning round and seeing the road you came down crawling with zombies.  Grin
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