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Author Topic: Let's play AoD!  (Read 551858 times)
GhanBuriGhan
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« Reply #900 on: March 20, 2008, 03:27:53 pm »

I understand that you don't have time to discuss with an editor. What you should still do is to have copy editing. Strictly for spelling, word repetition and obvious grammar. I think if you can find someone you trust on those, there is no need to discuss much. You send it out, it gets corrected, you load it back up, done. Will avoid a lot on unecessary ridicule at release.
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"Merely killing those being mean to me. It's not my fault it's everyone in the world of AoD". (Vahhabyte)
Vince
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« Reply #901 on: March 20, 2008, 04:48:26 pm »

That's the point of having the editors swap off after doing their first parcel -- that way they correct each other and you only have to get involved if there's a dispute.
Doesn't work like that. Typos are easy to fix. "Awkward phrases" would require a lot of discussions. Unfortunately, it's hard to say what's awkward and what isn't, what's good writing and what's bad writing, what's too excessive and what too brief and "childish". Those two threads at the Codex illustrate my point perfectly.

Trust me, it's a long project. Maybe it's worth doing and maybe it isn't, but it's not a quick and easy thing.
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MaximB
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« Reply #902 on: March 20, 2008, 05:24:52 pm »

That's the point of having the editors swap off after doing their first parcel -- that way they correct each other and you only have to get involved if there's a dispute.
Doesn't work like that. Typos are easy to fix. "Awkward phrases" would require a lot of discussions. Unfortunately, it's hard to say what's awkward and what isn't, what's good writing and what's bad writing, what's too excessive and what too brief and "childish". Those two threads at the Codex illustrate my point perfectly.

Trust me, it's a long project. Maybe it's worth doing and maybe it isn't, but it's not a quick and easy thing.

We have to trust Vince on that.
If it's not spelling or wrong lines (ordering, grammar) there is no much we or anyone else can do in a reasonable time.
If Vince write the quests only he can know what he meant the NPC's to "feel" while saying what they say.
And so far I have no major complaints to Vince. (except the minor grammar problems).
If we are to try to correct it, it will take forever.
It won't work as everyone sees the "lines" a little bit different then others.

Maximum those grammar problems will make you LOL and make the game even funnier Wink
 
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Dr.Strangelove
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« Reply #903 on: March 20, 2008, 05:36:21 pm »

Imagine the LOLz of the Codex trolls or, worse, of the game reviewers.
I agree with GhanBuriGhan that objective matters as spelling, grammar and syntax should be addressed to avoid embarrassment. The rest is not worth the trouble as Vince's writing is good, better than that of many English native speakers.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 05:44:29 pm by Dr.Strangelove » Logged
MaximB
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« Reply #904 on: March 20, 2008, 05:59:12 pm »

Imagine the LOLz of the Codex trolls or, worse, of the game reviewers.
I agree with GhanBuriGhan that objective matters as spelling, grammar and syntax should be addressed to avoid embarrassment. The rest is not worth the trouble as Vince's writing is good, better than that of many English native speakers.

Yep, basically what I've said Smile
Agreed.
so watch for those red lines under the words Vince Wink
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galsiah
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« Reply #905 on: March 20, 2008, 06:10:14 pm »

Sure - however a spell checker isn't a copy editor:
Their our shore too bees lips witch wont shoe us ass er ors.
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MaximB
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« Reply #906 on: March 20, 2008, 06:14:09 pm »

Sure - however a spell checker isn't a copy editor:
Their our shore too bees lips witch wont shoe us ass er ors.

yeah well I imagine that a brief reading/scrolling will do here.
 
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cardtrick
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« Reply #907 on: March 20, 2008, 07:55:23 pm »

That's what I've been saying. Copy editing still takes a hell of a lot of time and involves spoiling the entire game for yourself; unless you want to shell out $20 an hour for a professional, you're going to need volunteers, which is where my randomized automated parcels and "buddy system" of double checking comes in.

I wasn't proposing that the editors go through changing phrases all willy nilly, although I think that they should have limited scope to correct extremely awkward phrases and only if the two buddies both agree to the change without question. All along, I've been using the term "copy editing" rather than "editing", because that's what I'm referring to: spelling, grammar, and simply wrong phrases; but no style or tone changes, and no subjective changes to story, setting, or characters.
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Zeron
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« Reply #908 on: March 21, 2008, 02:20:45 am »

Hi!  English is my second language, so I don't really found problems with the dialogs. Smile
Solution - target non-english markets Smile
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Palmer Eldritch
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« Reply #909 on: March 21, 2008, 03:09:06 am »

I'm actually fine with it as it is, since the dialogs presented thus far seem informative and entertaining enough, but I should add that I'm not a native speaker (seems to be quite a few of those in the potential fan-base). Just wanted to say that it's not a deal-breaker for me, if there are some errors. That said, I'd be glad to compile a list of suggested changes while I play the game.
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Claw
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« Reply #910 on: March 21, 2008, 01:25:17 pm »

I wasn't proposing that the editors go through changing phrases all willy nilly, although I think that they should have limited scope to correct extremely awkward phrases and only if the two buddies both agree to the change without question. All along, I've been using the term "copy editing" rather than "editing", because that's what I'm referring to: spelling, grammar, and simply wrong phrases; but no style or tone changes, and no subjective changes to story, setting, or characters.
I think that's a good idea. Maybe changes that go beyond correcting obvious errors should be proposed on the side, and the editors could discuss them among each other, especially in respect to the double-editing you suggested. So editor #2 would get back at #1 after he's gone through the text and discuss the merit of these "extended changes" and then the agreed upon changes are presented to Vince who'd just have to approve of deny them.
Also, I think editor #2 should also have access to the original text. That way he's also checking if editor #1 restrained himself from editing more than he was supposed to, and he may be able to better judge if changes are appropriate. Also, if the two of them can't come to an agreement, they might first ask the other editors to look at some phrase - including the necessary context - before bothering Vince.

It seems to me that Vince isn't comfortable with letting other people work on the text unsupervised. Who knows what they'll really do with the text? I do however believe this isn't an entirely rational fear: He doesn't have to trust anyone. All he has to do is read the reassembled texts in the end, maybe with the original at hand. That shouldn't take too long. I mean, it does take time, but it shouldn't be close to adding another year as he suggested. He wouldn't have to actually discuss all the changes. He'd just quickly read through the text to make sure there are no glaring mis-corrections. Obviously, he'd have to trust his editors to some degree and not ask them to justify every small change in grammar.
I don't even think weekly meetings are necessary.

Last not least, I don't believe the two threads Vince referred to as evidence that editing causes an undue amount of debate don't make his point. For one, arguing on a public forum is cheap. Any idiot can do it and there is very little restraint. See also -> John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory
However, I thought that many changes were quickly accepted and debate mostly occurred concerning details, such as which slightly different variant is better.* This doesn't need to concern Vince; two reasonable people working as editors should be able to settle for one definite choice. Also, to repeat myself: Vince wouldn't have to debate changes with the editors. If they propose a different phrase and he doesn't like it, he rejects it and doesn't have to justify himself or even tell the editos. Even if the editors feel his choice was wrong once they find out - the result of such an approach would still be superior to rejecting editing altogether.
It wouldn't be no work, but it shouldn't be too much work if Vince can just delegate and stay out of the editing process.

*This didn't seem to fit into the flow of my argument, but the other case is of course anonymous trolls and dumbfucks - not labeled so by accident - which can be safely ignored.
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namad
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« Reply #911 on: March 22, 2008, 05:30:11 am »

how about you just do a patch like a few months after release and fix whatever errors get pointed out really popularly via some sorta form on the website...

theres really no way i can see you managing to supervise any form of editing without taking too much of your real time


either hire a professional you trust and lose money/(some time) or lose LOTS of time making sure you agree with all the changes some sorta volunteer work comes up with... but hell if this is your pet project are you gonna let a professional get away with anything either? probably not... unless you have a cousin brother or wife who is an editor/english professor i think there might be no easy solution.
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Jedi_Learner
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« Reply #912 on: March 22, 2008, 08:36:51 am »

So, you have to decide whether or not my writing is good enough. I can promise you that the dialogues will have occasional typos, some grammar issues, and even some awkward phrases. If that's completely unacceptable, we'll get an editor. Otherwise, we'll go with what we have.

I think your writing is good enough. I hope the game doesn't get delayed by another year, just because a few people don't like how a particular sentence is phrased. I can live with the occasional spelling or grammar mistake. I know some of you are trying to help, but for fuck sake, some of you will complain just about anything. Neutral
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I'd like to take a moment here and address the issue of expectations. There is nothing revolutionary or evolutionary about AoD. I hope it will be a good game, nothing else.
star
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« Reply #913 on: March 22, 2008, 11:38:06 am »

I say go without an editor. It's neither worth the money nor the time. The best thing you could do (imho) would be an extensive beta-test (of the full game, not just the first town or something) by a few choosen people. This way the most obvious mistakes (in design/quests as well as in grammar) should emerge quickly and you can fix them.
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Helian
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« Reply #914 on: March 22, 2008, 02:26:26 pm »

I say go without an editor. It's neither worth the money nor the time. The best thing you could do (imho) would be an extensive beta-test (of the full game, not just the first town or something) by a few choosen people. This way the most obvious mistakes (in design/quests as well as in grammar) should emerge quickly and you can fix them.

That's actually a great idea (assuming that there are some native speakers among the beta-testers). This way there won't be any additional expenses at all, regarding time as well as finances.
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