Pages: 1 ... 47 48 [49] 50 51 ... 73   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Let's play AoD!  (Read 567093 times)
cardtrick
Artisan

Posts: 553



View Profile
« Reply #720 on: March 09, 2008, 01:48:50 pm »

I think it looks fine with my suggestion implemented, as above. However, my first thought (and first response) was to leave the quest as is, and I still think that's probably best. I like anything that adds replay value to the game.

On the other hand, if all you want to do is fine-tune this to make it less likely that almost everyone is going to see the alternate quest, then you could add a "bodycount" check. (That's what that reputation is called, right?) So Feng will only make his offer if the player has high combat skills and has killed at least 2 people up to this point. I think that even makes more sense, since if the player has been killing people we can assume he's starting to get a bit of a reputation, which may explain why Feng would approach this stranger.

I chose the number 2 because it rules out anyone who just kills the merchant or just kills the assassin during the vignette. This means the player will either have to have been so eager to start killing that he's gone and done some other bloody quest before seeking out Feng, or he'll have had to choose to kill the guard during the assassin quest, which will likely be fairly rare and difficult. If you think it's better, you could go with 3 or some other number.

Pastel's suggestion was sensible too, but I don't really like the idea of boosting the skillchecks so high that many players won't even see them and will have very few options. This is an early encounter, and I think it's good if many of the early encounters have lots of options and skillchecks to give players a good idea of what the game will be like and a chance to define their character early.

Quote from: Vince
How is the '[Assassin]' check handled? Does it depend on your reputation with the guild or is it always an instant-success (of course only if you are a member)?
Your reputation with the guild. The difficulty depends on what you're trying to accomplish. In this particular example you only show your familiarity with the guild's price list, so it's a pretty much an instant-success dealio.  In some other cases you may have to go with a "fuck with me and you are fucking with the entire guild, asshole" angle, in which case you'd have to be a notable member to pull that off.

I like this a lot.

Oh, and my vote is to talk to Lord Antidas. It's time for our character to meet some of the real powerbrokers in town, and we have no particular reason to like Feng -- after all, we already caught him trying to manipulate us once, and who knows whether he's trying that again with this Cassius job. So let's wait a bit on that, and talk to Antidas first; we may discover it's more to our benefit to work for the big man, instead.
Logged
Vince
Developer

Posts: 8078



View Profile
« Reply #721 on: March 09, 2008, 02:00:44 pm »

...then you could add a "bodycount" check.
Makes sense too.
Logged
callehe
DS Gold Patrons
*
Posts: 284



View Profile
« Reply #722 on: March 09, 2008, 02:23:05 pm »

Agree with Cardtrick. Feng seems like a shifty fellow, no honor in working with him. Talk to Antidas.
Logged
Morbus
Expert

Posts: 1068


Wastelander


View Profile WWW
« Reply #723 on: March 09, 2008, 03:20:13 pm »

Your reputation with the guild. The difficulty depends on what you're trying to accomplish. In this particular example you only show your familiarity with the guild's price list, so it's a pretty much an instant-success dealio.  In some other cases you may have to go with a "fuck with me and you are fucking with the entire guild, asshole" angle, in which case you'd have to be a notable member to pull that off.
Would you? What about intimidation and bluff checks? Or something of the sorts... Will that be in?
Logged

Fosse
Craftsman

Posts: 286


View Profile
« Reply #724 on: March 09, 2008, 03:42:01 pm »

Does anyone think players might be more inclined to select the "Let's try another way" option if it doesn't start out by telling Feng we don't have any gold? 

I've considered it and I feel I might be more inclined to investigate that path if the player said something like, "I think any amount of money for this scrap is a little absurd, but you've piqued my interest.  Any other way we might pursue this?" 

I think the difference to me, subtle as it would be, is that I DO have enough cash and don't automatically see a reason to lie about it.  I've already proven my character doesn't get swindled so there's no reason Feng needs to think I'm broke.  Very subtle.  Maybe only 1% more players will find the quest path this way, but given the tone of the question and the replayability issue maybe that 1% is all you're looking for?
Logged
Vince
Developer

Posts: 8078



View Profile
« Reply #725 on: March 09, 2008, 03:49:50 pm »

Would you? What about intimidation and bluff checks? Or something of the sorts... Will that be in?
Intimidation is in, of course, but there is a difference between intimidating "some guy" and intimidating a powerful leader of a faction.

I've considered it and I feel I might be more inclined to investigate that path if the player said something like, "I think any amount of money for this scrap is a little absurd, but you've piqued my interest.  Any other way we might pursue this?" 
I like this.

Logged
Pastel
Craftsman

Posts: 374



View Profile
« Reply #726 on: March 09, 2008, 05:42:44 pm »

Quote
Gracius and his guard died last night by your hands, and now you're off to do another murder in the same building? Would you really want to take your chances at this inn? lol
Well, death and murders won't shock anyone there. Not in a town with an assassins guild's branch. Anyway, let's wait and see what happens.
If it continues this way, hiring better guards will become more cost-effective than paying the cleaning bills.
Logged
Claw
*
Posts: 315


Adun Toridas!


View Profile
« Reply #727 on: March 09, 2008, 07:46:42 pm »

But if it's as important a quest as all that, then it may be best to have a second shot at picking it up or at least strong hints that it exists before turning it down the first time.
What does "important" mean? I don't see it as necessary or even desireable to point something out to the player unless the designer wants the player to follow that path.

Maybe this: After Feng asks for 25 gold, leave the two options as they are already. Only If the players chooses to think, and Feng gives the headache line, you might add again the "let's find another way" option (maybe with the player hinting in some way at his skills or affiliation). Thus, we give another chance the player (and Feng to skill-check the player) to see this possibility which is very fitting for assassins. Hey, we even get to role-play "thinking" this way!
That's by far the best suggestion.

However, it *is* very, very easy to miss this quest.
Really? Because all the other options look like obvious "get on with it" ways to proceed. "Let's find another way" basically shouts "sidequest" at me. Besides, players would see less options anyway (see also my reply to Pastel), so the sidequest should be prominent enough to have a good chance at being spotted.


Same concern. After passing the skill check players will most likely proceed forward, so I doubt that the "I'll think about it" option will see a lot of action. So, instead of burying this quest in one rarely visited branch, we'll bury it in two rarely visited branches. See my point?
It still increases the potential exposure and thus chance of players visiting it without being in-your-face. Or as I am prone to saying: "What galsiah said."


So, unless you have Street, Pers, or a large amount of money (possibly by delaying visiting Feng until later), you will be faced with two options: "I'll come back later with the money", or "Maybe we could find another way?". Now, which option will 90% of players pick?
That sounds very much like railroading the player. The game is supposed to be about choices; reducing the player's options strikes me as counter-productive.
Besides, VD already stated that you only see all three options here because he decided to forgo the skill requirements for the purposes of this thread. Heck, according to the skill values someone posted recently, we'd only see the [streetwise] option besides giving Feng nearly all out money (subpar), saying "Later" (yeah, great choice), or choosing the coveted "Let's find another way" option. And since seeing the streetwise option doesn't guarantee success and it sounds a little offensive, to me "Let's find another way" almost looks like a no-brainer already.
Another character build might even be reduced to the two options you mention already, so I see no point in reducing the chance for making any option viable. I'd rather have some options as a rule, not as exception to the rule.
Logged
Lainestin
*
Posts: 199



View Profile
« Reply #728 on: March 09, 2008, 08:00:39 pm »

I like the idea of Feng asking you to take care of Cassius when you try to end dialog, but it only makes sense if you're an assassin, a mercenary, or have the reputation of a killer. Other backgrounds should have to take the "let's find another way" dialogue. I don't think the quest should be open to a knight at all, because it seems like an unneccessary risk for Feng to take. Why would he ask someone that might be loyal to Lord Antidas when he could just hire the Assassin's guild to take care of it? 
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 08:43:28 pm by Lainestin » Logged
Dr.Strangelove
Novice

Posts: 41



View Profile
« Reply #729 on: March 09, 2008, 09:04:40 pm »

I think Claw put things in the right perspective. Not many people would give money so easily to double-crossing liar Feng, without first trying other options.
I like the idea of Feng asking you to take care of Cassius when you try to end dialog, but it only makes sense if you're an assassin, a mercenary, or have the reputation of a killer... 
Taking care of doesn't automatically mean murder. The only casualty actually needed is Cassius's credibility. This is what people with other talents may achieve. I'm sure Vince has options ready for other backgrounds.
As for continuing the game, I vote for seeing Lord Antidas. It's the most logical option for understanding what's going around from the player's point of view. He is the most important person in town and may give information about Feng and Cassius. A player will decide many things according to what Antidas has to say.
Logged
Vince
Developer

Posts: 8078



View Profile
« Reply #730 on: March 09, 2008, 09:08:17 pm »

@ Lainestin:

Knight doesn't have to go through Feng at all. His vignette's goal is to bash some heads, remind everyone who runs the town, and recover the map. Then he takes it to Antidas.

@ Dr.Strangelove:

Yes, you don't have to kill Cassius to get rid of him.
Logged
Lainestin
*
Posts: 199



View Profile
« Reply #731 on: March 09, 2008, 09:57:28 pm »

Quote
Taking care of doesn't automatically mean murder. The only casualty actually needed is Cassius's credibility. This is what people with other talents may achieve. I'm sure Vince has options ready for other backgrounds.

True, but I still don't think it makes much sense for Feng to stop the player from leaving just to offer this job if the player's background is that of a merchant, a grifter, or a thief. He might be willing to let a person, with one of those backgrounds, get rid of Cassius in lieu of cash as payment for his help, but I don't think he would try and hire them otherwise.

Quote
Knight doesn't have to go through Feng at all. His vignette's goal is to bash some heads, remind everyone who runs the town, and recover the map. Then he takes it to Antidas.

Understood.

As for the game, I vote for seeing Lord Antidas.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2008, 10:07:21 pm by Lainestin » Logged
Dr.Strangelove
Novice

Posts: 41



View Profile
« Reply #732 on: March 10, 2008, 06:19:55 am »

True, but I still don't think it makes much sense for Feng to stop the player from leaving just to offer this job if the player's background is that of a merchant, a grifter, or a thief. He might be willing to let a person, with one of those backgrounds, get rid of Cassius in lieu of cash as payment for his help, but I don't think he would try and hire them otherwise.
I don't like Feng stopping the player at the last moment before leaving, too, because he seems like treating a matter his career depends on as a petty errand he almost forgot about.
But, he's a cunning fellow, he surely knows ways to ruin a loremaster's reputation and he might hire anyone who could help him dealing with Cassius in any way he might think of. He has too fine a mind to think only of the obvious choice of murder. Being an intellectual he might find brutality and violence ham-fisted and sloppy, to be used as ultima ratio when more elegant ways are not feasible. He would be a suspect in the case of murder, after all.
Why wouldn't he hire a thief, who may steal or plant something as to ruin Cassius presentation to Antidas, a con-artist or a merchant, who might bribe someone of Cassius entourage? As a note, I think a grifter who takes Cassius place to ridicule him would be a lot of fun.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 06:21:39 am by Dr.Strangelove » Logged
MaximB
Artisan

Posts: 977



View Profile
« Reply #733 on: March 10, 2008, 07:04:20 am »

First of all let me say that this thread is great ! I read most of the bible here and I think it was a good idea to make this thread and review some quests (although it is full of spoilers).

Reading the first quest and 20+ pages that follow I understand that it will be very hard to fix all the quests in this way or another as some "bugs" in that quests (forcing the player to do what he didn't intend to do, like running out of the scene when he got no indication of doing so with his choice) could very much be in many other quests as well.

I might have missed something but will any character you choose will have to recover the map first or is it only for the assassin ?
If you play a Merc, will your first quest be defending Gracius against the assassin ?
Are the quests given by your background or in some other way ?
I mean, a PC with no background will have less quests ?

P.S
I hope that when your company will grow bigger (by the huge success of AoD Grin) you won't lose the connection with the community.
One thing that I favor is when the developers talk and listen to the community.
Sadly it only happens with indie developers or small companies.
 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 08:33:49 am by MaximB » Logged
Scott
Developer

Posts: 2394



View Profile
« Reply #734 on: March 10, 2008, 09:38:32 am »

I don't like Feng stopping the player at the last moment before leaving, too, because he seems like treating a matter his career depends on as a petty errand he almost forgot about.

I disagree on this point.  Bringing up a life-and-death matter as if it's of little consequence could be an oratorical strategy.  If you're about to negotiate a price for an assassination, the last thing you want to do is start weeping about how your life would be ruined by the competition and how you'll do absolutely anything to off this guy.  In addition, maybe Feng knows 10 different ways to deal with the new guy and just thought he'd toss one out while you were conveniently nearby.

I had another off-the-cuff thought:  why not drop the [skill check] from the dialogue lines altogether?  If the PC is offered the chance to threaten somebody, it's evident you'll be checking Intimidation, right?  What does it add to dialogue spelling out the different stat/profession checks?  Maybe this is something that's just included out of habit because every other RPG does it...
Logged

contributed to: Age of Decadence | Dead State | Dungeon Rats | Battle Brothers | Fell Seal:Arbiter's Mark
working on: Colony Ship RPG | Stygian:Reign of the Old Ones | Encased | ATOM RPG | Realms Beyond
Pages: 1 ... 47 48 [49] 50 51 ... 73   Go Up
Print
Jump to: