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Sleet
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« Reply #360 on: January 21, 2008, 05:43:22 pm »

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Quote from: Sleet
Unless the guard is a total idiot there is no way he will lower his sword or let you get the drop on him with an unloaded XBow.
1) He might be - clearly his security precautions were less than perfect.
2) Your next two statements work against one-another: Since he knows your crossbow is unloaded, he has every reason to think that you won't be able to attack quickly, and therefore might think he can lower his sword with little risk.
3) If attacking (with an initially unloaded crossbow) is a reasonable option, then gaining a little time/initiative before attacking must be more reasonable. It might still not be an easy fight, but every little helps.
4) Who says it has to be an entirely sensible option?

#1: very true, will have to let Vince decide that one as he has the stats on the characters.
#2: I disagree. He saw you kill the man with one shot and knows you work for the assassin's guild. If he is NOT the idiot (as possible from #1) he would never lower his blade to an assassin that just killed his meal ticket. If he once again is an idiot, then sure lower the sword - and get killed.
#3: sure. I am trying to stick with two options but having a third is fine.
#4: well if you want to go down this route then we could add quite a list.  Tongue


My main point is I think Vince has seen quite a lot of feedback on this. Let's let our assassin do his job! Smile
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galsiah
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« Reply #361 on: January 21, 2008, 05:52:50 pm »

I'm for the hard way. Unless Vince is making necessary alterations, we might as well continue with the Let's Play here, while we discuss related issues in suitably linked threads. The Let's Play will be simpler to follow, and more coherent if it isn't interrupted at every turn with five pages of debate.
This would also allow discussions on multiple Let's Play-related issues to go on at once. I'm sure there are readers who don't care about the issue we're discussing now, or have little to add, but might both care and have good points to make on other issues.

Where the Playing is held up by alterations, that's fine, but I don't think it should be held up for long by discussion.


By the way Vince, I hope you're not making too many changes as direct responses to this kind of feedback. It'd probably make sense to get more opinions on more issues before doing anything radical. Where there are easy tweaks with no sacrifices, or discussion has you utterly convinced, that's one thing, but trickier trade-offs shouldn't be decided on incomplete feedback.
I also hope the "customer is always right" line is at least partially a joke. Even those of us who've spent quite a while thinking about these issues have nothing like the knowledge of the specific context that you do. In some respects having a relatively fresh perspective is useful, but it'll make us unaware of the many non-obvious/non-local benefits of the current setup. Using prospective customers to identify potential problems is a good idea; following their "solutions" is a much dodgier prospect.
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galsiah
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« Reply #362 on: January 21, 2008, 06:04:10 pm »

#1: very true, will have to let Vince decide that one as he has the stats on the characters.
It's not character stats that are important here: the question isn't "Is the guard stupid?", but rather "Might the PC think the guard is stupid".

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If he is NOT the idiot (as possible from #1) he would never lower his blade to an assassin that just killed his meal ticket.
You could argue that it's the best way not to provoke a fight - which he may well not want to do if the PC is an intimidating sort. Given the unloaded crossbow, lowering a sword might seem a relatively safe gesture of goodwill - so as not to give the assassin reason to think he'll try anything funny, and therefore a good reason to kill him.
The intimidation success amounts to an "I'd rather not risk fighting this guy." decision. Relatively safe actions which make a fight less likely seem pretty reasonable to me.

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#4: well if you want to go down this route then we could add quite a list.
Sure - but that's not always a bad idea. Vince has given several text adventure examples where certain options are extremely unwise (some lead to death, I believe). That's probably a bit much for an opening vignette, but that's not to say that there can't be relatively unwise (if not fatal) options.

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My main point is I think Vince has seen quite a lot of feedback on this. Let's let our assassin do his job! Smile
Good point.
I just thought that since I'd argued against further discussion here in my previous two posts, it was only fitting that I continue to discuss an essentially redundant point. Smile
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Vince
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« Reply #363 on: January 21, 2008, 06:11:04 pm »

By the way Vince, I hope you're not making too many changes as direct responses to this kind of feedback. It'd probably make sense to get more opinions on more issues before doing anything radical.
I'm thinking. Literally.

I don't want to proceed (and potentially run into more problems) before this situation is solved. Like I said, I didn't see it coming and had my reasons for doing things this way, but you guys have raised a lot of good points and made several good, very different suggestions. Hence the delay.

I like your suggestion, Galsiah; I like Priapist's original suggestions, but they can't be used once, so I have to consider tweaking all dialogues (not every line, of course, but where applicable) and estimate time and effort. Several other suggestions (cardtrick's, xenocide's) are excellent as well; I wrote a few test dialogues, but haven't decided what to do yet. Give me another day.

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I also hope the "customer is always right" line is at least partially a joke.
Yes and no. Obviously I'm not trying to please everyone and I'm not eager to start changing things to get a few approvals, but we can say that there was a consensus that more options should have been there. I agree with that too.

Someone has to listen to you fuckers.
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Vince
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« Reply #364 on: January 21, 2008, 06:24:21 pm »

#1: very true, will have to let Vince decide that one as he has the stats on the characters.
It's not character stats that are important here: the question isn't "Is the guard stupid?", but rather "Might the PC think the guard is stupid".
And what are the benefits of such an inquiry? The guard isn't stupid, so the option leads nowhere but adds several screens and clicks between you and the window. I see where you are going with it, but testing static values will always result in one outcome.

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Sure - but that's not always a bad idea. Vince has given several text adventure examples where certain options are extremely unwise (some lead to death, I believe).
Not sure what exactly you're referring to (some examples would be nice), but I think that all "unwise potentially fatal options" are skill-checks, i.e. your death is a result of attempting something without sufficient skills and not a result of clicking on a wrong option.

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galsiah
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« Reply #365 on: January 21, 2008, 06:45:01 pm »

Sure - you're right on both counts (though in the first, I don't think the guard needs to be stupid to think lowering his sword might be a good idea - but that's not the point).
The fatal options I was "remembering" must have been skill-check failures, as you say.

Saying that, I don't think that unwise, non-fatal-but-interesting, options are a bad thing. That amounts to the "tough love" we're talking about in the other thread. Highly significant tough love doesn't belong in a vignette, but it's never too early for a bit which is interesting and doesn't lead to any huge handicap.
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zhirzzh
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« Reply #366 on: January 21, 2008, 07:14:48 pm »

2: I was paid to kill one, and since I don´t work for free, you can relax and put your sword down. You will walk away with your life, and my business here will be done. a bit of sweet talk and you'll have the drop on this sucker
Then what?

+10 to hit for first attack because he's not on his guard?
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Special_Can
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« Reply #367 on: January 21, 2008, 07:45:28 pm »

2: I was paid to kill one, and since I don´t work for free, you can relax and put your sword down. You will walk away with your life, and my business here will be done. a bit of sweet talk and you'll have the drop on this sucker
Then what?

+10 to hit for first attack because he's not on his guard?

 And your crossbow isn't loaded...
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I roleplay. If there un-conscious, i just walk away and pretend there dead.
Vince
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« Reply #368 on: January 21, 2008, 07:48:34 pm »

+10 to hit for first attack because he's not on his guard?
With what? Unloaded crossbow?

Sure - you're right on both counts (though in the first, I don't think the guard needs to be stupid to think lowering his sword might be a good idea - but that's not the point).
Also to keep in mind, whatever you expect the guard to do should be viable options when you're playing the guard. If the guard calls for help, you'll be given an option to call for help in the mercenary vignette, etc.
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galsiah
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« Reply #369 on: January 21, 2008, 08:12:40 pm »

Also to keep in mind, whatever you expect the guard to do should be viable options when you're playing the guard. If the guard calls for help, you'll be given an option to call for help in the mercenary vignette, etc.
Good point...

...but more importantly - I'd completely forgotten that the same scenario would be seen from different perspectives for different character types. Of course I knew that in theory, but I hadn't thought about it at all while considering this episode (see: the consumer is a cretin who remembers nothing Smile).


In view of this, I'm changing my position from clarity-and-maybe-more-options to the firmly-in-favour-of-more-options camp. Of course it'll take somewhat longer, since everything needs to work from all sides - but I've always thought that starting things off with the same scenario from different perspectives is a wonderful idea. This isn't just another quest, so I think you ought to be making the most of it.


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If the guard calls for help, you'll be given an option to call for help in the mercenary vignette, etc.
Where do you stand on the converse? I.e. if you have option X as the mercenary, does the guard also have option X? I'd love this if you could get it to work, but it I guess it might be tricky in some cases. Clearly you'd need some means to decide which option the NPC took in parallel situations, but that could reasonably depend on stat/skill checks (as in the option for the guard to attack/back down based on PC intimidate check).... but this has probably been obvious for some time to those with a memory.
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Vince
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« Reply #370 on: January 21, 2008, 09:38:01 pm »

Where do you stand on the converse? I.e. if you have option X as the mercenary, does the guard also have option X?
Yes. What do you have in mind?
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zhirzzh
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« Reply #371 on: January 21, 2008, 10:35:03 pm »

+10 to hit for first attack because he's not on his guard?
With what? Unloaded crossbow?

Knife in your cloak?  Chance of one hit kill with it?
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TheLostOne
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« Reply #372 on: January 22, 2008, 08:58:14 am »

Okay, just wrote up an alternate suggestion since you're looking for resolution on this.


After merchant is killed:

Guard: Well, great.  First day on the job and now this.   The bastard hadn't even paid me yet.


1. Attack
2. You should research your clients more throroughly.  This one was dead the moment he walked back into town.
3. My job is done, so unless you're interested in following your master to try to settle that debt I suggest you lower your weapon and move back.

If 2:

Guard: Hey, things are pretty desperate out there and not many people are hiring outsiders.  I've got to take what I can get.

1a. Well you're luck's not getting any better tonight.  Attack.
2a. Tomorrow is another day, as they say.  You do want to see tomorrow right?  If so I'd suggest lowering your weapon and moving back.
3a. Nod at the chest against the wall.   You know, there's no reason either of us should have to walk out of here empty handed.

If 3 or 2a succeeds:

The guard eyes you consideringly for a moment as if sizing you up, then lowers his weapon and takes a few steps back towards the door.

1b. Grab what's in the merchant's hand and slip out through the window.
2b. Actually, I've thought better of it.  No one cowed so easily would put up much of a fight.  Attack.

If 3 or 2a fails:

Guard:  You'll be dead before you can reload that thing. 

He attacks.

If 3a succeeds:

The guard stares at the chest for a few seconds before nodding slowly, "He certainly won't miss it.  If the merchant's guild comes asking, though, I'm telling them you took it all.  I'm not interested in seeing another ferryman any time soon."

1c. Fair enough.  You two divy up the contents of the chest and you grab what's clutched in the merchant's hand on the way out the window.
2c. Now why would I let you do that, when I can just kill you dispose of the body and make it look like you made off with everything?

If 3a fails:
The guard stares at the chest for a few seconds before turning back with a greedy smile, "You're right about that, but I think you won't be walking out of here at all.  Sharing's never been a virtue that I particularly care for."  He attacks.

If 2c succeeds:

The guard swallows nervously and nods, "Fine I'll leave town quietly.  I'd have a hard time getting hired after tonight anyway."  You two divy up the contents of the chest and you grab what's clutched in the merchant's hand on the way out the window.

If 2c fails:

The guard scowls and shakes his head, "If I've got to leave town anyway, it's going to be with a full purse.  I think I'll just take the goods and leave you for the rats."  He attacks.

If you kill the guard:

1d. Strip both bodies of valuables, grab the goods from the chest and the item the merchant has clutched in his hand before slipping through the window.
2d. Grab what's clutched in the dead merchant's hand and leave quietly.
3d.  (hidden unless you have a high Int or disguise maybe) Dispose of the guards body before returning to the room and stripping it of it's valuables.


I'd suggest that when you get this quest the guildmaster mention that the merchants guild intends to lay claim to this guys goods any looting option other than succeeding with 2c or 3d you take a big faction hit with the merchants for stealing the goods.  Your guildmaster could chide you for being greedy when you get back but if you covered your tracks or conviced the guard to leave you could put the blame on the guard and spare yourself the faction hit.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 09:00:02 am by TheLostOne » Logged
TrustNo1
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« Reply #373 on: January 22, 2008, 12:53:53 pm »

I kinda like the conciseness of the original dialogue. It is a fast and threathening comment that don`t leave a lot of time for the guard to think the situation through.  What about adding a "(slip quietly out the window)" note behind the sentence, to make thing clearer? Just a variation of the "(Truth)" note.
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cardtrick
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« Reply #374 on: January 22, 2008, 01:35:44 pm »

I kinda like the conciseness of the original dialogue. It is a fast and threathening comment that don`t leave a lot of time for the guard to think the situation through.  What about adding a "(slip quietly out the window)" note behind the sentence, to make thing clearer? Just a variation of the "(Truth)" note.

That's been discussed, and it would definitely be a good choice if you were guaranteed to succeed at the intimidation. But if you fail, then you have to fight, and it doesn't make a lot of sense. You could fix this by adding "(If successful, slip quietly out the window.)", but I think that's clunky and much more game-y than a simple [truth].
« Last Edit: January 22, 2008, 01:52:29 pm by cardtrick » Logged
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