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Sleet
Craftsman

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« Reply #270 on: January 15, 2008, 03:52:40 pm »

Give him 1/2 the imperials, 1-3 gems and his life.
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Vince
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« Reply #271 on: January 15, 2008, 03:55:16 pm »

So being killed because you chose to ignore an armed guy while looting the room is no real consequence?
Not really. In-game consequences are something you deal with and live with. Anything that forces you to reload and thus ignore isn't a good example.

Vince: Can't you just attack him anyways after the conversation?
Nope. I've done it this way on purpose to make the first option "meaningful". You want to fight, fight. You want to avoid fighting, then avoid fighting and leave without making a scene.

However, valid points have been raised, so let's review and see what could be done.
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namad
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« Reply #272 on: January 15, 2008, 05:46:36 pm »

this is how i see the problem.
the outcomes ARE PERFECT.
the second dialogue is misleading... the option of attacking isn't fun or clear at all...


1. say some stuff then something reasonable happens
2. enter combat


this should be changed to
1. say some stuff then something reasonable happens
2. say some stuff then something reasonable happens



so change 2. to something indicating you plan to rob him... something threatening.... a taunt about how he failed to do his job...etc... something cool to say!


people are going to shy away from any option that just sounds less cool because roleplaying involves saying something witty... not choosing your outcome directly without dialogue



also the threat you speak in option two could hint at the fact option two is combat+more reward: whereas option one clearly hints at less combat (less reward) the less reward part is fairly straightforward in it's implication if only part 2 has some dialogue
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TheLostOne
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« Reply #273 on: January 15, 2008, 06:17:09 pm »

dunno.  Would a true assassin sit and chat?  Depended on how you want to play him.  I'll probably play a down to business cold motherfucker as my assassin, at least on the first playthrough.

These are only the opening vignettes sure so it's not necessarily indicative of the amount of choices later in the game.  On the other hand, it's the opening vignette and you know what they say about first impressions and all.

I would add a few more choices personally (see suggestions in my earlier post), but it's your vision VD so if it fits better this way then so be it.
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Priapist
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« Reply #274 on: January 15, 2008, 08:18:44 pm »

Okay, rethinking was probably a bad word. I wasn't thinking in terms of a "do over", more along the lines of giving the player reasonable opportunity (or information) when they're choosing what essentially amounts to a course of action to remove them from a once-off situation, never to return.
So, what would you suggest then?

PC says: I was paid to kill one, and since I don't work for free, you can relax and put your sword down.

The guard studies you, evaluating his chances. From behind narrowed eyelids, he considers your crossbow at great length. Finally he nods and lowers his sword, but shows no intention of backing away.

Then what?

Okay then, let's see what we can come up with, from the top:



The mercenary looks at you, then the dead body on the floor. He's still trying to decide what to do.

[1] Attack him before he puts his defenses up.
[2] Grab the scrap of paper (?) from the merchant's hand and make a hasty exit through the window.
[3] "I was paid to kill one, and since I don't work for free, you can relax and put your sword down."

-----[3a] "I don't work for free either, and you just killed my employer. I'll extract my compensation from your hide!"
-----[3b] The guard studies you, evaluating his chances. From behind narrowed eyelids, he considers your crossbow at great length. Finally he nods and lowers his sword, but then takes a step toward you and raises his eyebrow.

----------[3b1] Attack, and hope it isn't already too late.
----------[3b2] "Don't push your luck! Take a step back and I'll slip out quietly."
----------[3b3] Try to get out the window before he closes the remaining distance.

---------------[3b3a] Not wanting to leave empty handed, you snatch whatever the merchant was clutching and deftly hop through the open window, barely evading the clumsy swing of the mercenary guard.
---------------[3b3b] The mercenary reacts almost instantly. You barely have a chance to get so much as a single limb through the open window before he's upon you.

[4] "Don't think you've failed in your duty. An army of bodyguards wouldn't have been able to protect this fool from himself. Now, I'll gladly pay the fee he promised you if you agree to walk away silently."

The mercenary edges a little closer with every word. By the time you finish your pitch, he's completely negated any tactical advantage you might have had.

-----[4a] "I only agree to walk away victorious!"
-----[4b] "<merc pay x2> pieces, or I run you through and take all you've got.
-----[4c] "<merc pay> pieces. Toss it over and I vanish.



Better? I've left out the specifics of dialogue checks, but I think they're fairly self explanatory.
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Vince
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« Reply #275 on: January 15, 2008, 08:52:31 pm »

this is how i see the problem.
the outcomes ARE PERFECT.
the second dialogue is misleading... the option of attacking isn't fun or clear at all...
The "attack" option isn't clear? Or fun?

Anyway...

The merchant makes no attempt to escape his fate. The bolt finds his heart and his no longer alive body hits the floor. The mercenary looks at you, then at the dead body on the floor. He's still trying to decide what to do.

1. I was paid to kill one, and since I don't work for free, you can relax and put your sword down.
2. Attack

If 1:

The guard studies you, evaluating his chances. Finally he makes his decision and charges at you.

or

The guard studies you, evaluating his chances. From behind narrowed eyelids, he considers your crossbow at great length. Finally he nods and lowers his sword, but shows no intention of backing away.

1. Take what the merchant clutches in his hand and leave quietly.
2. Nod to the chest. Fifty-fifty?

If 2:

The guard relaxes visibly and nods slowly. He opens the chest, smiles, and starts sorting out coins.

1. Wait for him to finish.
2. Break his neck

If 1:

The guard counts the coins and gems twice, and divides them into two equal piles.

1. Take you share and the scroll the merchant clutches in his hand and leave quietly.

If 2:

The guard goes down without a sound. His wide open eyes look at you with indifference.
...

What do you think?

Edit: Just noticed your post, Priapist. Cool stuff.

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namad
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« Reply #276 on: January 15, 2008, 09:35:06 pm »

hrmm...

to me "attack" isn't a roleplay action it's a technical action...


even changing attack to something like
"attack immediately" or "attack before the bodyguard can" or even something describing your actions as you notice the bodyguard and choose to turn on him in a cold fashion.... etc... even if you think speech is out of place then perhaps just descriptive emotes for the benefit of the player only

I mean sure it is fine either way... but attack isn't even really a sentence... it feels out of place compared to the heavy flavor and reading of every other screenshot i've seen


what makes me feel attack is out of place is because other people felt confused... i was trying to distill the source of the problem... i felt that the option with the least to say was likely the most mysterious one even if a persons gut reaction says different..

basically attack is fine... but given the interesting writing in everything else I wish attack had some too :-D



on another note i've realized this forum tends to nitpick and argue just to argue... to be honest i am sure both options are insanely satisfying and cool and your "harsh choices" theory really sounds revolutionarily cool

let's do more let's playing! pick choices and continue with em?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2008, 11:21:00 pm by namad » Logged
star
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« Reply #277 on: January 16, 2008, 09:37:13 am »

I think namad is right. If i have two options, one with a cool and witty line and the other one just a standard one-word "attack" as seen a hundred times before, people will tend to pick the one with more flavor, because the writing makes them believe that this is the "more fun" option. It's not a logical issue, just a psychological one.
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JuJu
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« Reply #278 on: January 16, 2008, 10:12:12 am »

What would be risks of splitting the loot fifty-fifty, Vince? Right now it looks like no-risk option, that hardly anyone would miss.
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Astromarine
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« Reply #279 on: January 16, 2008, 10:14:08 am »

this is how i see the problem.
the outcomes ARE PERFECT.
the second dialogue is misleading... the option of attacking isn't fun or clear at all...
The "attack" option isn't clear? Or fun?

Anyway...

The merchant makes no attempt to escape his fate. The bolt finds his heart and his no longer alive body hits the floor. The mercenary looks at you, then at the dead body on the floor. He's still trying to decide what to do.

1. I was paid to kill one, and since I don't work for free, you can relax and put your sword down.
2. (You quickly notice the guard's indecision and decide to make his choice for him, charging forward. The world has no room for dimwitted bodyguards anyway. You're sure his potential future clients would thank you.)

If 1:

The guard studies you, evaluating his chances. Finally he makes his decision and charges at you.

or

The guard studies you, evaluating his chances. From behind narrowed eyelids, he considers your crossbow at great length. Finally he nods and lowers his sword, but shows no intention of backing away.

1. Take what the merchant clutches in his hand and leave quietly.
2. Nod to the chest. Fifty-fifty?

If 2:

The guard relaxes visibly and nods slowly. He opens the chest, smiles, and starts sorting out coins.

1. Wait for him to finish.
2. Break his neck

If 1:

The guard counts the coins and gems twice, and divides them into two equal piles.

1. Take you share and the scroll the merchant clutches in his hand and leave quietly.

If 2:

The guard goes down without a sound. His wide open eyes look at you with indifference.
...

What do you think?

Edit: Just noticed your post, Priapist. Cool stuff.



proposed fix taking namad's opinion to heart.
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Vince
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« Reply #280 on: January 16, 2008, 10:34:53 am »

What would be risks of splitting the loot fifty-fifty, Vince? Right now it looks like no-risk option, that hardly anyone would miss.
No risks.

Hey, Astro. Glad to see you here.
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Astromarine
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« Reply #281 on: January 16, 2008, 10:47:37 am »

thanks. Grin

I guess there's at least a skill check to get the split? otherwise there's really no reason why anyone'd leave empty handed, is there?
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Scott
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« Reply #282 on: January 16, 2008, 10:48:11 am »

I've been reading the copious number of opinions on how to resolve this one situation, and just to put my $0.02 in, I think it worked better the way it was without inserting the 50/50 split option.  It seems cheesy.

The original dialog was concise and made sense.  It didn't offer every conceivable resolution to the situation; no dialog ever will.  It was minimal, but IMO it worked fine for that particular situation, which is an opening vignette after all, not the final boss showdown.

There is such a thing as putting too much thought into a tiny piece of a game.
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Mephisto
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« Reply #283 on: January 16, 2008, 10:59:45 am »

thanks. Grin

I guess there's at least a skill check to get the split? otherwise there's really no reason why anyone'd leave empty handed, is there?

I think there should be a persuasion check, which failed makes you leave empty handed.
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Vince
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« Reply #284 on: January 16, 2008, 11:02:27 am »

I guess there's at least a skill check to get the split?
Yes. That was just a rough draft written in 5 min.

I've been reading the copious number of opinions on how to resolve this one situation, and just to put my $0.02 in, I think it worked better the way it was without inserting the 50/50 split option.  It seems cheesy.
It kinda is, I agree.

Quote
The original dialog was concise and made sense.
I prefer short and to the point dialogues. They increase replayability (imo) as you don't need to swim through tons of screens to resolve a *simple* situation. However, I prefer exploring different opinions instead of dismissing them outright.

Anyway, what about Section8/Priapist's excellent writing? No comments?
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