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cardtrick
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« Reply #150 on: January 08, 2008, 12:44:03 am »

First, "requested us to tell Gracius" is simply incorrect grammar -- "us" is...
First, correct or not, it's something people say. It's not jarring, and it's not out of place (if this were a loremaster's dialogue it might be, but it isn't).
Second, is it incorrect? It's *not* being used as the subject of "to tell", since "to tell" is an infinitive here. Your argument would work against "requested us tell Gracius", not against "requested us to tell Gracius", surely.
"...requested that we tell Gracius" would work too, but it's more of a loremaster's/diplomat's phrasing than an assassin's.

I don't think I've ever heard someone say "requested us to [do something]" -- it just sounds wrong to me. Try saying it out loud. You're right of course about the infinitive. You may also be write that it's technically correct. I just think it sounds bad, and that object/subject thing was my attempt to justify my instinct. I don't believe that this is something people say, and it absolutely was jarring to me. I'm perfectly fine with introducing deliberate colloquialisms and grammatical errors into someone's dialog to reflect an uneducated character, but this doesn't seem deliberate and I find it very awkward. I'm not a grammar Nazi, and I have enough posts that I don't feel the need to chime in on every little thing -- I wouldn't have commented on this if it didn't bother me. Changing to "that we" would be a fine alternative.

Quote from: Galsiah
Quote from: cardtrick's idealized Neleos #1
Before you kill Gracius, the Commercium requests that you tell him, "The merchants guild wishes to remind you that you're still not welcome in this town."
Since we're being picky, this is just factually incorrect: did the Commercium specifically request that the PC tell him? No.

Quote from: cardtrick's idealized Neleos #2
The Commercium has a special request for you. Before you kill him, remind him that the merchants guild says he's still not welcome in this town.
Again - they don't. The Commercium commissioned the guild, not the PC.

You call me picky, and you pick on this? Of course the Commercium didn't ask specifically for the PC, but by the same token they obviously didn't intend for literally the entire guild to say that line -- they clearly must have meant for someone (not specified) to say it, and since Neleos has given you this task, that request was effectively made of you. This kind of thing actually is "something people say."

Quote from: Galsiah
Quote
EDIT: To clarify, I know that *'s have been used...
But do you *know* it?
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Priapist
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« Reply #151 on: January 08, 2008, 12:45:48 am »

Quote
Oh, and let's go for option 1. Our assassin is a no-nonsense badass, and all he needs to know is that he's getting paid.

Yep, that's the one. The other questions are obviously for chumps who don't know their place.

Quote
Commercium requested us to tell Gracius "The merchants guild wishes to remind you that you're *still* not welcome in this town" before you kill him.

If we're going to nitpick, I'd go with "Commercium requested we tell Gracius..." but honestly, I'd leave it as is. If anything, it needs to be *less* like formal speech and more like the jailhouse slang the thieves use:

Quote from:  "Hillbilly Latin Neleos"
'Mercium quist us eddo Gracius "The merchants guild wishes to remind you that you're *still* not welcome in this town" praefore you nect that spur.

...but that's probably overdoing it.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 12:48:11 am by Priapist » Logged
zhirzzh
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« Reply #152 on: January 08, 2008, 02:42:17 am »

Go with 3. I'm a data miner.
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Palmer Eldritch
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« Reply #153 on: January 08, 2008, 02:50:04 am »

agree, number 3 please
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Hümmelgümpf der Bruzzelzwerg
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« Reply #154 on: January 08, 2008, 06:32:22 am »

Number 3 is the way to go. *Knowing* your prey can't hurt.
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Helian
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« Reply #155 on: January 08, 2008, 08:00:49 am »

Go for #1.
Question #3 seems somewhat silly to me, why shouldn't his arrival in town be enough of an annoyance for the guild to have the merchant executed? (esp. as he was warned before, obviously)
I also strongly support having #2 as a one-time question, being able to ask the same question over and over is a real immersion-breaker (unless there are different answers each time).
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Ander Vinz
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« Reply #156 on: January 08, 2008, 08:14:47 am »

Vince, can you attach a poll to each situation so we can skip twenty posts of  "go with 3 please"?
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Oscar
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« Reply #157 on: January 08, 2008, 08:17:37 am »

I believe this situation it's not important enough for a poll. But there will be times when the fate of our fearless assassin will depend on an important choice, and then a poll might be necessary.
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Ander Vinz
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« Reply #158 on: January 08, 2008, 08:46:27 am »

there will be times when the fate of our fearless assassin will depend on an important choice, and then a poll might be necessary.
like, to kill the ancient evil and get a good ending or side with him and get a bad one.
oh, sorry for spoilers.
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Vince
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« Reply #159 on: January 08, 2008, 09:12:43 am »

First, "requested us to tell Gracius" is simply incorrect grammar -- "us" is...
First, correct or not, it's something people say. It's not jarring, and it's not out of place...
Definitely. "what do you want me to tell him?", "he wants me to pick him up", etc are rather common and don't strike me as odd.

Quote
"...requested that we tell Gracius" would work too, but it's more of a loremaster's/diplomat's phrasing than an assassin's.
It does sound better, but like you said it's a more polished way of speaking. So, should I leave it as is or replace it with "requested that..."?

Anyway, here is the last dialogue option, explaining the setting to you. When you click option #1 you are automatically taken to the inn.

[attachment deleted to save space]
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Vince
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« Reply #160 on: January 08, 2008, 09:15:32 am »

Vince, can you attach a poll to each situation so we can skip twenty posts of  "go with 3 please"?
I wasn't waiting for a poll results here, I was simply too busy. There were no decisions to make there, just to learn a bit about the setting.
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Gareth
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« Reply #161 on: January 08, 2008, 09:28:38 am »

That face is pretty hideous. Nuke it please.



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galsiah
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« Reply #162 on: January 08, 2008, 10:10:56 am »

I don't think I've ever heard someone say "requested us to [do something]" -- it just sounds wrong to me.
I've certainly heard "...asked us to [do something]..." a lot. Perhaps what you find odd is the combination of a word like "requested" with a formation like "us to X" - something of a clash of styles. Maybe it is a little odd, but it doesn't really bother me. If it would bother many players, it should be changed. That seems unlikely though.
Whatever the case, things like this should be changed on the basis of what flows and feels right, rather than on grammatical exactitude.

I do think it makes sense to keep some form of "us"/"we" in there, rather than a "you". Of course "you" isn't technically wrong - it just gives the wrong emphasis. I think Neleos would want to put the guild at the centre of things, rather than the PC and his mission. Speaking of the Commercium, and what they've requested that "you" do, includes the guild only by silent implication.

Quote from: Helian
Question #3 seems somewhat silly to me, why shouldn't his arrival in town be enough of an annoyance for the guild to have the merchant executed?
Sure - that's a possibility, but assumption is the mother of all fuckups. More information can't hurt.
I'd say it comes down to whether the PC trusts the guild to have presented all the useful information they have to him. It might be that this is standard practice for the Commercium, or equally that it's much faster/harsher than their usual approach. If it's unusual, that's a warning-sign, and an invitation to be more careful - unknown motives probably exist, which might involve other powerful factions.

If it's me I'd usually ask the question - unless I thought it'd be seen as insubordination / unprofessionalism / lack of trust....

From the design point of view, it'd be nice if asking more questions weren't always the percentage play - even in safe situations. If the aim is to encourage a more natural, only-asking-what-the-PC'd-ask approach, asking more questions needs to be able to create problems as well as solve them. On the other hand, if the aim is to get the player to find out everything possible about a compelling setting, perhaps encouraging some data-mining isn't a bad thing.
I guess my ideal would be for there to be both positive and negative consequences. For example, in this case, option 3 could contribute towards a reputation for thoroughness, but also towards a reputation for having little trust in other guild members. It'd be nice to see the decisions of guild leaders influenced by these different approaches - perhaps giving missions requiring more investigation / unquestioning-loyalty as appropriate. [naturally this is probably impractical overkill]
« Last Edit: January 08, 2008, 10:16:24 am by galsiah » Logged
Claw
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« Reply #163 on: January 08, 2008, 10:11:33 am »

PS. That face on the interface bugs the hell out of me for some reasons. I know it's very Roman, but can we replace it with something, Oscar?
I agree. At the very least, I think this image or any replacement should be more faded. When you look at the corresponding picture you posted, it stands out from the stone much less than the image on the screenshot. It should be more watermark-like, especially if it's just deco.


Oh, and #1.
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Vince
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« Reply #164 on: January 08, 2008, 10:59:55 am »

I don't think I've ever heard someone say "requested us to [do something]" -- it just sounds wrong to me.
I've certainly heard "...asked us to [do something]..." a lot. Perhaps what you find odd is the combination of a word like "requested" with a formation like "us to X" - something of a clash of styles.
Google says that people say "...requested us to..." it quite a lot - 80k matches

...where you have requested us to make a reservation...
...requested us to create a soft look for your...
...projects in the state of NSW have requested us to source people...
...have actually formalized an invitation and have requested us to do...
...information you have requested us to remove...

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