Iron Tower Studio ForumsRPGThe Age of DecadenceCombat Demo Discussions (Moderator: Vahha)Critical chance (+ sword) = superior?
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piotras
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« on: January 26, 2010, 12:00:33 pm »

First of all, the demo is sweet! And by that I mean abso-fuckin-lutely increadibly sweet. I was supposed to have a look for a an hour or two in the evening and stayed up till 5am! Fuck-yeah!

Back to topic however: Don't you guys think that critical chance (+ a sword, which also increases crits) is a bit superior to other skills? This game has so much to offer in terms of game play, but I find it annoying that all this bad-ass mechanics can go f*ck itself because critical hits + aim to the head are so much more effective and easy... it's like that in every game these days!

Compare two theoretical situations:

Playing a trident/dodge build for example: One has to choose a proper armor not to be slowed down too much and to have a decent Damage Reduction. During a fight one needs to always keeps his enemies at a distance, although closing-in interruption is a fast attack which doesn't take place all the time and very often does not cause any damage (starting from medium-range armored opponents).

A sword/criticals build for example: Choosing armor is rather straightforward - the best one, just to have enough action points to do those aimed shots in the head.

The latter options really doesn't involve us much tactical planning or smart moves, it's nice and easy like cutting through warm butter with a fucking light-saber.

Since I want this to be a constructive criticism not just whining this is what I would advise (or sth along these lines):
- for example, add a "bleading" condition to the game (hp loss over time, over a few rounds). Make swords have much higher chance of causing bleeding out of other weapons instead of just simply causing more criticals - that's lame!

- for spears: for each action point which is not used within a turn add 10%-15% or so to your spear skill only for the purpose of interrupting opponent's closing-in movement during this round.

- change critical hits from a skill to a property of a weapon - have better quality and masterwork weapons get higher critical rates.

- fencing/swordplay skill (not the best name I know) or sth similar could be added (instead of criticals) which could giving the player an extra automated fast attack whenever his previous attack was really good (critical, disarming, slowing down etc.) or give out random effects when the player is being attacked - like disarming your opponent, causing them to self-harm or harm their party member next to them (i.e. if wielding big clumsy weapons) or causing them to fall down etc... tones of ideas for this one!

What are your thoughts?

EDIT: typos
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 12:02:55 pm by piotras » Logged
Vahha
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 12:33:22 pm »

Ah, head attacks - so that's the key about sword builds! I also found Swords too powerful as the best one-handed weapons available in the demo are swords.
As for spear, I found it powerful enough.
Nice idea about critical failures thing due to clumsiness. IMHO, introducing bleeding is not that necessary as there will be poisons.

And keep in mind, the game itself is going to be much more than combats; getting SP, armors and weapons will be so much harder, and a combat monster won't be as successful as in the demo. As far as I know.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 12:45:57 pm by Vahhabyte » Logged

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Vince
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 01:06:38 pm »

What are your thoughts?
Constructive criticism. We've tweaked a lot of things, including the to-hit chance calculations, so get the new version when it's out (hopefully today) and let us know what you think.
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piotras
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2010, 02:10:06 pm »

And keep in mind, the game itself is going to be much more than combats; getting SP, armors and weapons will be so much harder, and a combat monster won't be as successful as in the demo. As far as I know.
I fully understand where you're coming from on this one, but what I was pointing to is that, at least in my view, dodge/block/crit-based builds should be equally good (with their specific dis-/advantages). It is easier to balance dodge vs block, since they work on a bit similar basis, but putting the proper balance on critical strike (in comparison to dodge/block) is probably a very problematic and delicate matter. Crit-based builds tend to be much more effective in today's games and the last thing I want to see is AoD go the same path!

We've tweaked a lot of things (...) so get the new version when it's out
You don't have to say that twice!  Salute
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sporky
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2010, 12:21:59 pm »

After reading this post, I went and tried a sword/crit guy, and haven't gotten through the ordu. I have about 125 in swords and 100 in crit with bronze imperial+tower shield, they demolish me. The archer alternated crippling my legs with 4-5 point hits and the swordsman just whacks me for 10-15 until I die. What was you guys' sword/crit ratio? Aimed attacks weren't connecting for me, if I was luck, I'd get one knock-out per try.
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piotras
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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2010, 01:53:30 pm »

After reading this post, I went and tried a sword/crit guy, and haven't gotten through the ordu. I have about 125 in swords and 100 in crit with bronze imperial+tower shield, they demolish me. The archer alternated crippling my legs with 4-5 point hits and the swordsman just whacks me for 10-15 until I die. What was you guys' sword/crit ratio? Aimed attacks weren't connecting for me, if I was luck, I'd get one knock-out per try.
I would advise putting all your skill points into swords until you reach like 200-250 and than start adding points into CS. It will allow you to get a proper hit in the first place. It worked for me. Try going for the archer first and maybe get a 2-handed sword and power attack your way through? At least the Ordu swordsman needs to be handled with a weapon of a bigger 'caliber' due to his armor. If he's still too tough try aiming for the legs and retreat. Every step will cost him 4AP, so by the time he reaches you he won't be able to attack as often. In the next turn get a powerful or an aimed attack and retreat, etc. I know that while you retreat he might use an interruption attack on you, but this one is always a fast attack (at least in the second release), which is not as bad compared to the power attacks he treats you with during a his normal turn. This works if you have high action points.

Wish you luck! After Ordu things are getting a bit easier (IMHO).
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JrK
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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2010, 03:06:43 pm »

The Ordu fight with a sword/crit build did become much easier for me when I used simple Aimed:head strikes at swordsman to knock him out so I could concentrate on the archer. However, if you have a decent Crit skill already you can also simply wear a good armor to minimize archer damage and murder that swordsman as fast as you can. The swordsguy is much more dangerous if the archer does not crit all the time.
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sporky
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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2010, 05:20:51 pm »

Thanks for the advice. I pumped crit too high definitely. Will try it again. Had most luck with xbow/dodge/crit and dodge/spear so far.

EDIT:
OK, I started a new guy, pumped sword to 250 first, then crit up to about 100. Works on most guys no problem. On about my 9th reload on the triari though. Those guys cause a lot of damage, even with steel imperial armor. Using 2 handed scimitar, but haven't tried a 1 hander with shield to lessen damage yet. I think that with a series of lucky rounds, I can get by them, but not winning tactically kind of sucks. To get by a couple guys, like the trident guy, I had to use a spear.

My two favorite builds have been uber crossbow guy, and the popular spear/dodge. Those two get through everyone without many reloads, and so seem pretty superior in the arena.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 09:22:00 pm by sporky » Logged

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JrK
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« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2010, 02:37:13 am »

To win Triarii: you need to avoid their ranged attacks. Keep them coming towards you and knocking them out with head attacks. Make sure the Leader buys it first (his head is unprotected!), the other two don't have nearly as much damage potential.
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piotras
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« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2010, 06:29:01 am »

To win Triarii: you need to avoid their ranged attacks. Keep them coming towards you and knocking them out with head attacks. Make sure the Leader buys it first (his head is unprotected!), the other two don't have nearly as much damage potential.
Yea, definitely the leader needs to be taken out first and he is not that hard without a helmet.

My two favorite builds have been uber crossbow guy, and the popular spear/dodge. Those two get through everyone without many reloads, and so seem pretty superior in the arena.
The spear/dodge combo is getting quite good too, but only if you can pump spear skills very high. I would say that spear is rather bad at low level or very good at high level, there is no middle-ground as in the case of swords, axes, hammers etc. due to interruption attacks being crucial with spears. Hopefully in the full game experience points will be generated at a slower pace (+ there will non-combat skills one will have to take into consideration), so getting a uber spearman build will be a difficult thing to do.
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