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Oscar
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« Reply #285 on: January 21, 2010, 03:55:31 pm »

IMO, any fight should be beatable without an unreasonable number of reloads, else what's the point? Even in the game, if it's not beatable at a certain level, you should be able to beat it later. I'm not talking about being easy, but it should be possible if your build is good enough.

That's true for the common RPG when combat is the only solution, so it's reasonable that all fights should be beatable. Here we are giving you several options to avoid them. If you want to go into an "unbeatable" fight, it's your choice, and if you beat it, you know you have accomplished the impossible.

It would be unfair if we made one of the arena fights completely impossible, but this is an optional one, and it's designed to show you a bit on how the game world works in AoD. Even if you are the biggest motherfucker around, there is always someone/something bigger than you, so you should tread carefully and think of the consequences. In most games, when you are stopped by 6 bandits you think "Cool! More XP and loot!". In AoD, when you're stopped by bandits we want to make sure that the option to give them all your money is very appealing and attractive.

That doesn't stop you from coming back later and slaughtering them all when you increased your level, even bringing a couple of buddies and engaging them on your own terms Wink
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 03:57:10 pm by Oscar » Logged

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Euchrid
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« Reply #286 on: January 21, 2010, 03:58:45 pm »

Quote
IMO, any fight should be beatable without an unreasonable number of reloads, else what's the point? Even in the game, if it's not beatable at a certain level, you should be able to beat it later. I'm not talking about being easy, but it should be possible if your build is good enough.

If it's a "plot-critical" or expected standard play-through fight, yes. However, I think the point being made with the Inn fight is that going up against 6 well-trained enemies is not really a good idea, and any more, pretty much suicidal. The moral being - pick your battles wisely. If every fight you choose to get into is relatively easily beatable, then you're character's basically god-like invincible. There should be some fights that are not wise for any character to take on. We are playing an ordinary person in AOD, not some god-favoured destroyer of worlds.
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Wrath of Dagon
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« Reply #287 on: January 21, 2010, 04:36:44 pm »

Again, I didn't say easily beatable, just possible with a good enough build

That doesn't stop you from coming back later and slaughtering them all when you increased your level, even bringing a couple of buddies and engaging them on your own terms Wink
  That's all I was asking for, there should be a combat solution to any fight, even if you have to delay until you get the proper level/resources.
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Secondly--MURDER? Merely because I had planned the duel and provoked the quarrel! Never had I heard anything so preposterous.
Vince
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« Reply #288 on: January 21, 2010, 06:00:10 pm »

IMO, any fight should be beatable...
Sometimes. Sometimes you're just fucked.

Quote
...else what's the point?
The point is that you are NOT an unstoppable force. Just like anyone else you can be killed (as in get yourself in a situation where the only outcome is "you die"), and you should keep that in mind when playing the game.

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Balor
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« Reply #289 on: January 21, 2010, 06:20:31 pm »

Well, should the inn fight be 'unbeatable'?
I guess it is, because it is VERY hard to beat even when you bedeck yourself in best weapons and armor and make an purely combat-oriented build.

However, I hope that even fights that are considered 'impossible' should be have consequences thought out (like in the inn fight, so I have my hopes up) in case the player will actually do the impossible, because NOTHING makes you give up on a game and curse the developers when you cleverly beat impossible odds and the game either fails to notice it or even makes you stuck due to script error.

Anyway, if something is PHYSICALLY possible (the enemy does not invariably insta-kill you and is immune to all damage - and I hope you will not resort to such low tricks) - then please please make add a consequence for beating that.
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Sapienti Sat.
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« Reply #290 on: January 21, 2010, 07:54:50 pm »

Well, yes, if you're trying to murder the entire town, may be that should be unwinnable. What I meant was if combat is presented as one of the solutions, it should be beatable even if very hard. For example, when ambushed by bandits through no fault of your own, you should be able to beat them if you're very good, it shouldn't be an automatic pay up or you die (else that might as well be the option, without possibilty of combat).
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Secondly--MURDER? Merely because I had planned the duel and provoked the quarrel! Never had I heard anything so preposterous.
Oscar
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« Reply #291 on: January 21, 2010, 08:04:32 pm »

Well, should the inn fight be 'unbeatable'?
I guess it is, because it is VERY hard to beat even when you bedeck yourself in best weapons and armor and make an purely combat-oriented build.

However, I hope that even fights that are considered 'impossible' should be have consequences thought out (like in the inn fight, so I have my hopes up) in case the player will actually do the impossible, because NOTHING makes you give up on a game and curse the developers when you cleverly beat impossible odds and the game either fails to notice it or even makes you stuck due to script error.

Anyway, if something is PHYSICALLY possible (the enemy does not invariably insta-kill you and is immune to all damage - and I hope you will not resort to such low tricks) - then please please make add a consequence for beating that.

For sure.
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piotras
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« Reply #292 on: January 27, 2010, 07:54:05 am »

In most games, when you are stopped by 6 bandits you think "Cool! More XP and loot!". In AoD, when you're stopped by bandits we want to make sure that the option to give them all your money is very appealing and attractive.

So true, can't wait.


I also managed to become the arena champion with a 2-h spear / dodge build. At my first try with this build I had 10 AP and a trident and I've put alot of points into dodge at first, but it wasn't a smart choice. When I reached Ordu I just couldn't take them out, because my spear skills were too low to do interruption attacks often and when they got close enough even with good dodge I couldn't stand a chance.

In my impression interruption attacks for a spearman are completely crucial. It's not only a good addition like criticals for a sword, without those interruptions a spearman will get his ass beaten up quickly.

Next and final try was STR:9, DEX: 10, CON: 9, PER:4. Although it was a spear/dodge build I didn't put a single point into dodge until having 200+ in spears, I finished with 261 in spears and 127 in dodge.
12AP was what I really needed for this build, with a 1-h spear I could do up to 4 attacks per round or whirlwind twice which was good with barbari and some lower level NPCs (once with 3 barbari I managed to do 6 hits per turn twice in a row, excluding dodge conter-attacks!). When fighting strong NPCs I've switched to a 2-h spear (the 5AP one) and have been doing a mix of leg and torso or power attacks and moving away from the opponent to get an interruption attack.

If I was to show the difficulty of all the fights in a graph form it would look like that:

*********
*********
*********

where the pick point is the fight with the Ordu. Really, later on (+ bucher's armor which allows for 11AP) the fights were quite straightforward, especially the last one (I got lucky on criticals though).

The fight in the inn however... darn, no way I can beat that in that tiny room. If only I had some space to get a proper interruption-distance each turn, then maybe.

Need to think of another build now. Cool!
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Radek Smektala
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« Reply #293 on: January 28, 2010, 12:06:50 pm »

Took my sweet time getting the privilege to post in this thread, but hey, here I am  smug

EDIT:

By the way, here's my guy right after Dellar:




It's the only build I played with so far. Any comments? Want to poke fun at him?

Barbari and the Triari gave me most trouble.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 12:18:11 pm by Radek Smektala » Logged
Awry
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« Reply #294 on: January 29, 2010, 10:50:22 am »

I'd really like to commend whoever designed the combat. It's pretty much genius, and far better than combat in any other RPG I've ever played. It seemed simple at first, but I quickly realized (well, not that quickly...) that the simple elements that compose it interact in very complex and meaningful ways, allowing for very different experiences depending on the build (I also realized just how important build was -- an emphasis I find refreshing). I was also positively surprised by the lethality of the combat.

I finished beat the arena (sans Inn Fight) with a 10 DEX axe-wielding maniac, maxing out Axe and Dodge but neglecting CS completely. I primarily relied on head- and torso- aimed attacks. The Ordu gave me the most trouble, and the barbari gave me some as well, until I was better acquainted with the system. I actually took out the Triari pretty quickly (the leader wasn't wearing a helmet... Evil). The critical strike guy murdered me at first, until I realized the importance of having protection against criticals (I also realized that, shockingly, in this game, criticals do matter -- and a lot). Other than him, most of the one-on-one fights were pretty easy (again, once I was acquainted with the system. At first I died quite frequently).

By the way, I've always wondered: does flanking matter in the game?
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Oscar
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« Reply #295 on: January 29, 2010, 10:57:31 am »

By the way, I've always wondered: does flanking matter in the game?

No, we didn't want to the player to micromanage the positioning of the character. Besides, we would have to rework the character rotating when doing counter-attacks and such. So we decided to implement this in the next build:

- Now you can block/dodge only 4 attacks per turn without penalties; each subsequent attack in the same turn will be progressively harder (extra 5% bonus to THC) to block/dodge.

So getting surrounded is not a good idea, even if you are a good dodger/blocker.
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"Hasta la victoria, siempre."

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Vahha
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« Reply #296 on: January 29, 2010, 11:27:35 am »

So we gotta be ready for reload fest  Roll Eyes
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Julius
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« Reply #297 on: January 29, 2010, 02:36:55 pm »

What? It means you'll have to bother more about positionning your character. If anything, this adds to the gameplay and tactics.
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Oscar
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« Reply #298 on: January 29, 2010, 02:41:46 pm »

That's correct.
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Vahha
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« Reply #299 on: January 29, 2010, 07:08:38 pm »

This is my most challenging "Titus" ever. When I was creating him, I reserved half of the Stat Points for non-combat stats.



PS: A question to Vince - is Con 7 of much use at the Abyss?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 07:12:16 pm by Vahhabyte » Logged

“In a time of deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”

― George Orwell, 1984
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