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Author Topic: Monday Design Update 10/19 - Skill Perks  (Read 18584 times)
Annie
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« on: October 20, 2009, 12:54:43 am »

Since Brian is a hardworking fella, I'm taking over the update for today - and in fact, for THIS update, I think we should keep it short and sweet and talk a little bit about Skill Perks.

Skills in the ZRPG – unlike, say, Fallout - don’t work on a percentage system, but in a 10-point spread.  Before you get all like NOOOOO about this, it was done so that upgrading skills was a more challenging thing, and that those upgrades felt more concrete and compelling of a difference then “Well, I was at 28%, but NOW I’m at 32%!  …I guess that’s better.  It’s a higher number, right?”  You won’t be able to max out ALL your skills in the game, not by a long shot – where you put those points is a significant choice.  (NOTE: think of the point buy system in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines and you’re not terribly far off)

SO.  Skill perks.  In addition to having heightened benefits from increasing your skills, at certain thresholds – level 3, level 6, and the max level of 10 – you will gain a Skill Perk in that particular skill. Sometimes this is an active skill: the Kick ability (gained at level 3 of Melee) knocks a target back a certain number of spaces.  Other skills are passive, such as the level 3 Survival perk, Survey – which increases the player’s viewing area on the Area Map by 50%. 

It takes a small point investment to reach level 3, so the Perks are correspondingly handy, but not overly helpful.  Level 6 takes more concentrated effort, so Perks are significantly improved – and the max Perk at level 10 is guaranteed to be awesome, albeit not in a “this is the win” cheesy and game-breaking way.  No matter what skill you put your points into, it should be worth your investment, and Perks should be interesting, well-integrated into all other systems, and easy for the player to conceptualize – they should look at it and immediately know how and why it would be immediately useful to them.

I realize I didn’t get into the details of how to earn points for investment in skills, and hey, look at the time, guess we’ll have to get into that one later on. EVIL LAUGHTER!
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caster
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2009, 01:25:34 am »

hm... it seems you guys are going for a gameplay that is less about details of skill investments and worrying about every single point and percentages - and more about what the player will do with skills he chooses.
Like having one general technical, science or just two weapon skills.

I think i like the notion and i have faith you guys will come up with interesting opportunities to use those.

« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 01:27:44 am by caster » Logged

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Azael
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2009, 06:25:11 am »

Would be even better if there was a choice of perks at each level, for further specialization of your character. No complaints otherwise, I used to be in the percentile/large numbers camp, but I'm starting to appreciate more well defined skill levels better and better since it makes each single advancement feel more useful and the choice more important.
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inhuman
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2009, 08:19:22 am »

I'm getting more and more disappointed almost by each update. How is this different than Oblivion in how "perks" of any given skill don't make any distinctions between characters at all? I was actually hoping that you'd add perks to skills but also add separate levels to the perks themselves and not make them "default" so you wouldn't just receive all perks in a given skill as you advance in that skill. I was hoping that a character with Mechanic skill of level 5 could have some difference with another character with the same skill of equal level. One might be particularly good with lockpicking at Mechanic level 5 because he invested more in that perk as opposed to another one particulary good at repairing engines or whatnot at Mechanic level 5 because he invested more in that perk.

I'm trying not to be an angry cunt here, but the more updates come in, the more this sounds like a console adventure. Not that I think it would be inherently bad as a game; just that I'm having doubts about the RP foundations in the game.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 08:46:11 am by inhuman » Logged

willcodejavaforfood
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2009, 09:22:23 am »

I think this sounds interesting and I can see why you would design a system where not every single point makes a difference. I did think it was annoying in Fallout 3, but mostly because I was not aware of how it worked from the start. I prefer this your system where you need to put less points to reach the next significant level. Will this be more obvious from the Skills GUI as well to avoid disappointing people? Smile I'm thinking something along the lines of having sub levels like your Melee would be at level 2, but also show that you have put another 2 points into it and is only one away from level 3. Hope that makes sense, anyway keep up the good work and updates Smile
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caster
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2009, 10:20:45 am »

I would also like to see multiple perks on each level. And/or different enhancements to previously taken ones - available.


In fact, re-reading Annies OP seems to indicate that we will have multiple choice of perks at each level...

Explanation/confirmation please?
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pnutz
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2009, 11:48:03 am »

Hmm, I didn't read that.
Quote
at certain thresholds – level 3, level 6, and the max level of 10 – you will gain a Skill Perk in that particular skill.

Just giving two choices at each threshold will double the perk abilities they need to create. These don't sound like simple bonus perks like "+3 to Mechanics when dealing with lockpicking" or "+3 to Mechanics when dealing with repair", but entirely new abilities like kicks that add knockback and removing the fog of war.

Annie did imply that skills would be expensive to max out and that you can't become a jack of all trades, "not by a long shot". There can be a great deal of difference between characters if you can only max out one or two skills and maxing them out provides an ability no one else will have.

Also, this is pretty much Alpha Protocol's skill/perk system.
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inhuman
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2009, 12:05:12 pm »

Also, this is pretty much Alpha Protocol's skill/perk system.

That would explain a lot, actually. In an unpleasant way.
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Vince
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2009, 12:20:31 pm »

Would be even better if there was a choice of perks at each level, for further specialization of your character.
I strongly agree with that.
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catmorbid
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2009, 12:27:44 pm »

Sounds awesome! But I agree with the bunch that say you should have multiple choices of perks for each threshold. I'll take in an example: The Fall - Last days of gaia. I don't remember exactly how their skill perk system worked, but I remember that you had multiple choices whenever you reached the threshold. And it was awesome.
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caster
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2009, 12:59:28 pm »

Hmm, I didn't read that.
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at certain thresholds – level 3, level 6, and the max level of 10 – you will gain a Skill Perk in that particular skill.

The next sentence sounds like there would be multiple options - to me.
Quote
Sometimes this is an active skill: the Kick ability (gained at level 3 of Melee) knocks a target back a certain number of spaces.  Other skills are passive, such as the level 3 Survival perk, Survey – which increases the player’s viewing area on the Area Map by 50%.
And besides, having just one perk for every skill would make things pretty daft.
I think we just misread it at first.

Would be even better if there was a choice of perks at each level, for further specialization of your character.
I strongly agree with that.
And i strongly agree with Vince agreeing strongly.


Annie... if you dont clarify this asap (not Gareth asap but real asap- asap)  im gona... gona... report you to the moderator! Evil
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 01:05:06 pm by caster » Logged

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Brian
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2009, 04:14:02 pm »

Would be even better if there was a choice of perks at each level, for further specialization of your character. No complaints otherwise, I used to be in the percentile/large numbers camp, but I'm starting to appreciate more well defined skill levels better and better since it makes each single advancement feel more useful and the choice more important.

This definitely stands to be considered. It would double our count of Perks, and since quite a few of them are new abilities, not just a stat bump, this would make them a bit more work to do. One problem you run into whenever you add more options is balance, which was our chief reason for distilling skills and weapons into fewer distinct categories. I don't think it's a bad idea, and stands to be a possibility for at least the middle to high level perks.

I know that sometimes it seems like fewer options means a more limited game, but one of the problems I have with a lot of RPGS and action-RPGs is feeling like you have a ton of skills to invest in when only a few are actually viable in most situations. For example, Fallout has multiple weapon categories, but if you put all your points in unarmed or throwing, do you really stand a chance in most combat compared to the person who put points in small guns or big guns? Similarly, with games with weapon specialization (like D&D), don't you hate when, due to the luck of the drop, you get nothing but really powerful swords, but you put all your points in polearms? Or when a game has multiple, ever increasingly vicious-looking weapons to upgrade, but the designers balanced the game so that the default weapon could be useful in 99% of the encounters?

Yes, some of this can be overcome with better balancing of all skills, but in my experience, it's easier to do less and make the fewer skills feel a lot more significant than putting in more and letting the player find out halfway through the game that most of the skills are completely useless 90% of the time. That was our goal with our system - to never make people feel like they wasted points or couldn't see the very immediate benefit of putting points in any category. If there was any skill that felt like it was clearly overshadowed by the others, we cut or consolidated those skills. When we felt they were too powerful, we split them into two separate skills.

One thing to remember is that, even though we have fewer Skills, it's pretty much impossible to max or get significant levels in more than a couple. Combine this with weapons that function very differently from one another - in such a way that a party could play very differently with the same skill set but different set of weapons - there are quite a number of possibilities for characters. And while we haven't announced all our systems yet (some of which help flesh out a few of the systems we have announced), the game is less about becoming god-like and more about just being able to keep shit together. We do want people to feel like they have a lot of choices in their build, and we do think that this is the case - not that we don't reconsider or tweak ideas based on feedback, we do (and thanks for those comments). My experience making RPGs has taught me that it's really easy to add lots of stuff...  and make it kinda, sorta work. Our goal on this project is to keep the design focused and polished enough that each time the player has a choice - whether it's a system or story choice - that it has enough weight to make it significant and satisfying in a ride the bear or ride the tiger kind of way.
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caster
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2009, 04:25:18 pm »

Quote
I don't think it's a bad idea, and stands to be a possibility for at least the middle to high level perks.
Good news.

I strongly...  - we said that already haven't we?
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inhuman
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2009, 04:45:53 pm »

Quote
I know that sometimes it seems like fewer options means a more limited game, but one of the problems I have with a lot of RPGS and action-RPGs is feeling like you have a ton of skills to invest in when only a few are actually viable in most situations.

Don't you think this is a problem with how the rest of the game is designed and not vice versa?

Quote
For example, Fallout has multiple weapon categories, but if you put all your points in unarmed or throwing, do you really stand a chance in most combat compared to the person who put points in small guns or big guns?

You absolutely do, yes. Bad example. Diversity of combat skills in Fallout simply worked, to the point of being absurd at times, besides the rest of the skills.

Quote
Similarly, with games with weapon specialization (like D&D), don't you hate when, due to the luck of the drop, you get nothing but really powerful swords, but you put all your points in polearms?

I hate it when lazy game developers make it so, that they implement at least semi-working core mechanics, and then a build a game world that doesn't support that core. So, again, this is a problem with the general design of the game, not indicative of anything at the core. Obviously, it would be easy for them and for players alike if they simply built the core that would suit better to the general game design, but that's not a valid case against going with a relatively rich set of stats. If you prefer one over the other, that's ok. But there can be no argument beyond that: it's just a preference, and if the rest of the game isn't in sync with that system, both can fail pretty easily.

Quote
Yes, some of this can be overcome with better balancing of all skills, but in my experience, it's easier to do less and make the fewer skills feel a lot more significant than putting in more and letting the player find out halfway through the game that most of the skills are completely useless 90% of the time.

While combat skills in Fallout, as an example of game that came with many skills where some were unused or underused, just worked and helped create a meaningful and working diversity, I agree with what you're saying. Still, I consider it to be laziness and lack of creativity on developer's part that they can't come up with valid applications of skills that later turn out to be crowd-makers, and nerfing skills to overcome that problem, without adding proper replacements that aren't as resource-consuming as picking dedicated skills, like optional and multi-level perks, is taking that laziness one step further.

Quote
One thing to remember is that, even though we have fewer Skills, it's pretty much impossible to max or get significant levels in more than a couple. Combine this with weapons that function very differently from one another - in such a way that a party could play very differently with the same skill set but different set of weapons

So long as the guy with a good handling on a handgun don't suddenly go postal with an assault rifle simply because he leveled up, I don't see a problem there.
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caster
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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2009, 05:25:10 pm »

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Don't you think this is a problem with how the rest of the game is designed and not vice versa?
My first reaction to people complaining how some skills were not that useful in Fallouts and thus should be removed or fused with others was that - instead, the game should be changed in ways that would make those skills more useful.

Idealistic view, sure - considering monetary and publisher imposed constraints. Especially in case of Fallouts.

Still for the game in the beginning of development i would prefer a more toight (like a toiger) design which will make sure that skills present have diverse, interesting and valuable implementation and provide strongly felt diverse options for the player gameplay experience - then piling up tens of skills and then ending up with a jumble of semi useful, semi overpowered skills.

For Perks , definitely - with time, there should be more options at higher levels.

Quote
So long as the guy with a good handling on a handgun don't suddenly go postal with an assault rifle simply because he leveled up, I don't see a problem there.
Its more that your guy with ranged weapon skill can use both (if you have them) from the start but will get better with each as he levels up/raises skill.
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I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
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