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Author Topic: Monday Design Update 10/5 - Feared or Loved?  (Read 16810 times)
One Wolf
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« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2009, 05:04:44 pm »

Paranoia, military fetish,  messianic syndrome and super-inflated ego are NOT the traits people usually seek in a leader.

That is exactly what I would have thought if someone had made a post like mine.  Since anyone with the characteristics you mentioned would likely deny those accusations no matter how accurate they are, I'll try not to but I feel compelled to defend myself a bit. 

I certainly do have a martial attitude, although I'm not sure it's a fetish.  I really, really enjoy martial arts not because it makes me a big tough guy, but because I find it deeply soothing, internally.  I also meditate and study Yaqui Indian energy manipulation, and my last girlfriend was a yoga instructor I met when I was studying Bikram.

I sometimes wonder about the military stuff though.  For a long time I had no interest in firearms at all.  I felt - and still do, to a degree - that they are a coward's weapon.  A friend of mine is a fantastic marital artist.  While visiting a friend in Chicago, some random guy acting erratically pulled a pistol and pointed it at him, all the while ranting incoherently.  There was a chain-link fence between them.  All that training was useless.  Problem is, that's reality.  As someone concerned with self-defense and the defense of others around him, calling guns a coward's weapon doesn't help much.  So I trained in those as well, just like the Samurai trained in a large range of weaponry, not just relying on katana and calling anything else a coward's weapon.  When the Portuguese starting bringing over firearms in 16th century (?), many Daimyo said exactly that, right before they got owned by relatively untrained soldiers from other provinces wielding firearms.

I don't think that anyone is out to get me, I don't think the world is going to end.  I don't even lock my door or take the keys out of my ignition (right now I'm living in a very safe location).  But at some point the question I asked was why not be prepared?  If you want to be conscious of self-defense, just doing a little can be extremely dangerous.

The messianic-complex and inflated ego are just patently untrue.  I don't want to be a savior.  In fact I'd rather burn most of humanity than save it.  As for the ego, you read me wrong.  Most of the positive attributes I listed were ascribed by others, not by me, and as I stated I believe they may very well be grossly incorrect. 

I freely admit that I'm a deeply fucked up person, just not in the ways you listed.  And as I said, I'm not sure I would make a good leader at all.

Of course when I just proof-read this post, it sounds like I'm all those things, so maybe you aren't far off the mark after all Grin
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SnallTrippin
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« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2009, 10:28:55 pm »

I have 0 military or MA training...I'm just aware of my environment and have good reflexes for a large person..good enough for me.  Good post though crazy military guy.  /joke (About the name not the good).
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inhuman
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« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2009, 08:45:06 am »

Jagged Allience 2 had conflicts between team mates but it would never affected the players leadership. They never blamed the player for inviting people in they didn't like and causing the problems or tried to abandon the team convincing valuable team mates to go with them. It would be interesting to see consequences for both good and bad leadership decisions.

If you constantly screw things up, new and previously hired mercs will refuse to work for you until you pull your act together. Also, if you unhire a merc later on, some of the other mercs won't be happy about that.
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Jakkar
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« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2009, 10:38:46 am »

Excellent.. *steeples fingers*

My first post - I discovered the project while studying Fort Zombie, and while I remain intrigued, I think I've found something far more interesting here =)

I'm inclined to go back and rape all previous design posts with myriad thoughts and curiosities; do let me know if that would be a gross breach of local etiquette, else I might not be able to hold back.

For now, I merely wished to bring up a question, and thought this thread seemed a suitable to do so without spamming up the main listing;

.. Have you considered negative traits as a significant aspect of character design, both NPC and PC? In the fashion of Fallout, will personal quirks have downsides, or sometimes be entirely negative? Will gameplay influence personality, will repeated betrayals introduce paranoid complexes or friendly fire incidents damage trust?

You seem to have a distinct emphasis on human-versus-human conflict, an issue explored only by Romero's classics, Danny Boyle's 28 films and in gaming by Capcom's Dead Rising, which unfortunately chose to make living human opponents.. magic wielding supervillains.. I just hope to find my equivalent of Harry Cooper somewhere in your crumbling world, so I can shoot him on sight then set fire to his daughter.

I look forward to reading more into the archive of design posts, and hearing more in future about the way NPCs devious little minds will work!

Good luck, Brian and co.


 - Jack

Edit: Glancing back through replies to this thread, I suspect my question may already have been answered.. I apologise for not reading back; caster's posts make my head ache.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 10:41:00 am by Jakkar » Logged
caster
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« Reply #34 on: November 08, 2009, 10:51:27 am »

Good. Then i must be doing something right.
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The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
Bjergtrold
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« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2009, 01:07:15 am »

Very often, the one who becomes the leader is the one who just takes the initiative. They make a few decisions, come up with ideas or simply say what the group should do, and if people follow them, pretty soon, they will expect that person to make the decisions.
Take the Lost series for example. In the beginning at least, no one chose the leader. He'd just happened to have been the one to have a good idea of what they should do, and so the doc guided them. Pretty soon, he was de facto leader.

And One Wolf, it's okay... you don't sound that bad Wink  So here I go, I'll try and draw some of the incoming fire:


The qualities that would make me a good leader are the following:
I have an IQ of 150, and think well on my feet. In stressed and panicky situations, I'm always thinking quite calmly, yet acting fast and appropriately. There's no doubt I lack experience, being only 24, but I'm sure that in the event of an apocalypse, we'll all be veterans in a matter of weeks, if not days.
Another aspect, that might be just as important for the integrity of the group, is that people trust me. I've never fully understood what it is I did right, but people open up to me, really fast. Strangers show me credit where none is due, as they trust me without knowing me (shopowners I've never met before, allowing me to come back and pay the 20$ the next day, because I forgot my wallet, and that kind of things). Luckily for them, I'm honest, so they don't get screwed over.
Also, I'm cynical... I'm very kind, but I also have the ability to really not give a damn, if I believe that the decision is right.
What that means, is that I'm not gonna play the hero, or incite others to do it. I'll play it smart, and look at my odds before I do what is "right". For example:
-Someones grand mother might be just a few blocks away, and yes, we might save her, but there's a 50% chance we'll run into zombies. I'd leave her. She's old, and was gonna die soon anyway. Plus, she'd probably not be a good addition to a group on the run from undead monsters...
And finally i have a good physique, and a very strong psyche. I can take what the zombies throw at me, and I can take the hardship of losing people I know and love, without going nuts.

So, all in all, I'm smart, capable, arrogant, people trust me intuitively, I'm not prone to go crazy when a hoard of zombies cuts off our access to the mall with the Twinkie stash, and I don't give a damn about people's irrational wishes (as saving grandma').
What's not to love in a leader like that, huh? (please don't give TOO many answers to that question... my ego CAN theoretically be harmed)

So I'm
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caster
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« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2009, 05:12:14 am »

Quote
and I can take the hardship of losing people I know and love, without going nuts.
Just out of curiosity, is this validated by experience or a presumption on your part?
Because, of all the things you mentioned, this is the hardest to achieve.
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I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
Bjergtrold
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« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2009, 02:40:35 am »

Mainly presumption, to be honest.
But I believe to know myself rather well. I grieve for a period, then I'm over it.
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caster
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« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2009, 03:58:29 am »

Some things cannot be known really until you actually live through them. And this one just doesnt work that way. Unfortunately.

Of course, in a game there can never be someone who you could care for and love that much. >And it rare in RL too.
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I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
mcgraves
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« Reply #39 on: November 15, 2009, 12:57:05 pm »

I'm a former Boy Scout and for those of you familiar with boy scouts I was a Senior Patrol Leader (for those who aren't the SPL is the main leader of the troop, he not only organizes each weeks meeting, but acts as the messenger between the adult's mettings/agenda and the boys, plans the outings each month, assigns duties and oversees that all duties are carried out in a timely manner etc.) I would like to think that I would make a good leader who makes fair decisions as well as keeping a good rapport with your group of survivors.

Personally I wouldn't want a group larger than twenty. 10 is ideal while 15 is acceptable, but anything more than 20 is a bit of excess when it comes to dealing with people. With a group of 10 you have the following:

-You, yourself, the Leader
-First Mate, this guy is second in command if you die/leave/whatever. Backs up whatever you say and helps enforce it, also good for advice if you aren't sure on something
-Cook 1, prepares meals
-Cook 2, helps cook 1 and can also switch jobs with cook 1
-Lookout 1, the lookouts rotate shifts
-Lookout 2, rotates with #1 but others can be lookout too so job doesn't get monotonous
-Cleaner, cleans up after cooks and is in charge of general tidiness
-Head of Supply, in charge of food supplies and ration amounts
-Head of Ammunition, in charge of weapons supply and ammo
-The Extra, they're there cuz they don't wanna die. They can be good as a general assistant to any of the other positions as well as the expendable one in case of zombie emergency


The main problems you would encounter are probably basic friction between group members, arguments of weapons and food supplies, arguments over who does what, medical issues, moral issues and general paranoia that you're going to get eaten by a fucking zombie. As far as frequency of these problems, I think that's where most leaders have their fall. They don't take into account how many issues they really are going to have to face. I'd say at between 12-20 problems a week, where 2-3 of these are major ones involving some kind of physical altercation. This number may seem high and at the beginning of the zombie apocalypse sure it probably is, but not every team gets stronger the more they are around each other. You didn't choose your group members so naturally as time goes on drama will build up and shit will hit the fan. Be prepared.
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caster
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« Reply #40 on: November 15, 2009, 06:19:14 pm »

Boy scout perk.
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I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
evildiehard
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« Reply #41 on: December 11, 2009, 01:24:39 am »

Anyhow, opening up discussion to the group - what kind of leader do you think you would be in the zombie apocalypse? Assuming you don't live next to a soldier, secret agent, surgeon, astronaut, bare-knuckle boxer, and sniper, if you had to keep ten of your neighbors alive in an emergency situation, could you do it? What kind of problems would you encounter? How many do you think would make it to a month?

I would be a rational leader who can make good judgement calls without my thoughts being clouded by emtions.  Which I believe in this regard is a very important thing. 

As for gathering 10 neighbors there would be a lot of fuss, arguing, and all sorts of verbal brawling but in the end I could probably keep 9 possibly 10 alive in an emergency.

Well for one I am 19 currently and I believe many others would have a problem with this.  They would say I lack experience, but who would have the right kind of experience in this case?  I can already forsee problems arising with other survivors who become very selfish, that could possible endanger the group and if this could not be fixed I would make the firm decision to leave the person behind.

One month eh?  hmmm....  I'm going to be brutally honest here.  I would say roughly about 5 would survive and the rest would have died due to unexpected causes.   
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CanadianWolverine
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« Reply #42 on: December 13, 2009, 05:30:10 am »

Anyhow, opening up discussion to the group - what kind of leader do you think you would be in the zombie apocalypse? Assuming you don't live next to a soldier, secret agent, surgeon, astronaut, bare-knuckle boxer, and sniper, if you had to keep ten of your neighbors alive in an emergency situation, could you do it? What kind of problems would you encounter? How many do you think would make it to a month?

Having been in a few crisis situations I know exactly what kind of leader I would be - a terrible one. Do I lack intelligence? No, I have a relatively analytical and skeptical mind that attempts to apply theories to repeated tests. Lack of knowledge? No, I enjoy reading relatively technical information if it produces results. Speed of action? No, even before the adrenaline kicks in, time seems to slow to a crawl for me and I can act decisively pretty damn fast while remaining calm. Do I lack initiative? No, I often break off on my own to do something I see as essential. Do I lack caring and compassion? No, I routinely carry concern for the well being of others and act on it, even though I do notice most do not appreciate advice they did not ask for.

I am a terrible leader for one simple reason, people do not follow me and for whatever reason, despite all my attempts to be otherwise, I routinely get on people's bad side. I am basically socially illiterate for the most part, though I have seen others do worse but that was because they were bullshit artists and everyone saw through the lies even if they didn't see through their own lies. If I was a RPG character, I would have low stats in Charisma and probably Luck. People are simply not attracted to me unless they take the time to get to know me and that is very rare. I know I make a better loner and if part of a team, most likely I am in a position that is not the Face of the group. I can handle any number of leadership skills competently but I do not possess the leadership quality that has people following me on short notice. Doesn't stop me from getting myself and those I love out of the burning building however. I do quite well in one on one but in group situations I am either unnoticed and blend into the background or ostracized for my quirks and/or strong convictions that stand out.

Of the ten, I think only 3 would make it to the end of the month. No, not because I got them killed, but because they didn't want to follow and split off to form their own group under a leader they were willing to follow, how well they fared after splitting off I wouldn't have a clue. The remaining 3 however, I would see safely through that time and beyond, as our smaller numbers would make any number of problems less so and there is a good chance love would be shown.
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