Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Monday Design Update 10/5 - Feared or Loved?  (Read 16468 times)
caster
Archmaster

Posts: 2743



View Profile
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2009, 02:48:20 pm »

I got it. You explained badly.

These are much better examples, except there is no -evil for the sake of evil- one in there.
A) do i carry that man because its a "good" deed or because i think i could use him or because i have something going on nearby and i dont want him to attract zombies?
What happens if i just kill him and no one sees it?
What happens if i kill him infront of other party members?
Cant i just knock him out? Stuff an old sock in his mouth?

B) does that always happen? If so then i would just avoid it and not put that woman on guard duty.
If its random then players will simply give up trying to outguess such a system.
Wouldnt it make more sense if guard fell asleep, after so many hours of duty and partly from resenting the treatment?
I know i would give my boss a finger behind his back, wait a little until he goes away then just hide and sleep my ass off. Which is what my whole crew does to our boss when he behaves as an asshole.
"You want me to work even more? Fuck you now ill sleep through the afternoon and ill work less everywhere i can."

C) Depends on what kind of people would have to go. Maybe we would choose the bastards in the group and throw them out?
Why is attacking another shelter a good thing? I mean, does it always ends up as a good result? many will live?
First, you may end up killing each other or seriously damage both groups or shelters themselves.
Second, if attacking that shelter would be advantageous to me or what i want to do i would attack it anyway for my own reasons.

- not criticizing your examples here as just trying to show how i see things, and trying to say that the Player should get some kind of information that would allow him to choose better then just do something and receive a certain pre ordained result.

Something in description of the woman or the guard could alert you to certain outcomes - for example.


Quote
I'm saying that good for the sake of good is as bad (when it comes to consequences) as evil for the sake of evil.
I would say that good for the sake of good can be bad when it comes to consequences (which is a big part of my job - daily) but that it isnt some kind of rule, and that such consequences shouldn't be or feel forced.

« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:41:10 am by caster » Logged

I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
Dicksmoker
Craftsman

Posts: 211



View Profile
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2009, 10:47:40 pm »

If you convince people to follow you, you're a leader.
But from what I've read it seems to be more than the Fallout-style recruit-people-as-you-adventure mechanic. For one thing, it's entirely optional in Fallout. But in this game, all the focus on group mechanics and the shelter and everything else that has been revealed makes it appear as though early in the game you get under your command at least several people, similar to a Bioware or Obsidian game.
Logged
Vince
Developer

Posts: 8035



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2009, 09:49:19 am »

I got it. You explained badly.
I'm not as eloquent as you are.

Quote
A) do i carry that man because its a "good" deed or because i think i could use him or because i have something going on nearby and i dont want him to attract zombies?
What happens if i just kill him and no one sees it?
What happens if i kill him infront of other party members?
Cant i just knock him out? Stuff an old sock in his mouth?
Moral issues rarely work in games, thus the answer to "what happens if I kill a man and nobody sees it?" is nothing. You didn't kill a man. You clicked on a cluster of pixels. If you loot the body and found something cool - yay! what a brilliant decision it was. If you loot the body and find nothing, well, might as well have let the fucker live, eh? Same goes for "why exactly am I carrying him, hmm?"

Physical hardships don't translate well either. In real life carrying a man for miles when you're tired and weak is a sacrifice. In games it's nothing at all. If I have enough space in my inventory, I can carry ten people if something to be gained, and in games there is always something to be gained, even if it's only xp for saving someone. So, if you're presented with a "do I save him or not?" question, it's not a question at all because the game gives you plenty of reasons to save a guy (even if he betrays you, it's still a reward in form of optional content) and none whatsoever for not saving him. My example provides both the reason and an option to save him if you so desire.

Quote
B) does that always happen? If so then i would just avoid it and not put that woman on guard duty.
We are not talking about you reloading all the time and fishing for best outcomes. We are talking about role-playing - making decisions and sticking with them.

Quote
I know i would give my boss a finger behind his back, wait a little until he goes away then just hide and sleep my ass off. Which is what my whole crew does to our boss when he behaves as an asshole.
"You want me to work even more? Fuck you now ill sleep through the afternoon and ill work less everywhere i can."
Sounds like a perfect strategy during a zombie apocalypse.

Quote
C) Depends on what kind of people would have to go. Maybe we would choose the bastards in the group and throw them out?
There are no bastards but helpless, scared people who hope you'll protect them.

Quote
Why is attacking another shelter a good thing?
I didn't say it's a good thing. My point was that it's a bad thing but it's a lesser evil than letting a lot of people die. The outcome is a good thing.

Quote
First, you may end up killing each other or seriously damage both groups or shelters themselves. Second, if attacking that shelter would be advantageous to me or what i want to do i would attack it anyway for my own reasons.
You can and it might, but the biggest issue is that you have a large group of people who don't fit in your shelter. The only solution is that bigger shelter, but the occupants don't want to let more people in. Your solution?

Btw, this example is from that "Death of Grass" PA novel, which has plenty of good examples, moral compromises, and bad things leading to good outcomes. A guy leads a group of people to a shelter that belongs to his brother, when he arrives, turns out that his brother had to accept some refugees as well, and now these refugees - people who are scared that too many people would doom everyone - don't want to let anyone in. The brother convinces them to let the main character and his family in, and the main character has a decision to make. He either abandons his group and watches them die, or they all attack the shelter and take over.

Quote
- not criticizing your examples here as just trying to show how i see things, and trying to say that the Player should get some kind of information that would allow him to choose better then just do something and receive a certain pre ordained result.
Well, that's the thing about being a group leader in a crisis. You don't get enough information and you have no idea how things would work out.
Logged
caster
Archmaster

Posts: 2743



View Profile
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2009, 11:39:43 am »

I'm not as eloquent as you are.
I kinda still like you.


Quote
Moral issues rarely work in games, thus the answer to "what happens if I kill a man and nobody sees it?" is nothing. You didn't kill a man. You clicked on a cluster of pixels. If you loot the body and found something cool - yay! what a brilliant decision it was. If you loot the body and find nothing, well, might as well have let the fucker live, eh? Same goes for "why exactly am I carrying him, hmm?"
But you set the scene so that carrying that guy is a good thing - that can have a bad result. As a moral issue. In which you get punished for doing the "good thing".
I expanded a little on circumstances and possible options and outcomes that could arise, in a way.


Quote
We are not talking about you reloading all the time and fishing for best outcomes. We are talking about role-playing - making decisions and sticking with them.
Sure, but if the game forces such improbable outcomes on me after a while i would just give up.
I would expect that the guard who has been on duty for 20 hours and is pissed at me for leaving him there would be first to fuck up in some way. And i would expect that a freshly saved woman would be so terrified and grateful she was saved she would put in extra effort for guard duty unlike a guard who had time to relax a bit and is overconfident either in his abilities or weapons or current situation.

Quote
Sounds like a perfect strategy during a zombie apocalypse.
Just normal human behavior and every leader who wants to cut it should be aware of such reactions.

Quote
There are no bastards but helpless, scared people who hope you'll protect them.
There are always bastards in any random group of people.

Quote
I didn't say it's a good thing. My point was that it's a bad thing but it's a lesser evil than letting a lot of people die. The outcome is a good thing.
I was saying the same, as can be seen easily. I just consider that: Attacking other shelter = good outcome - is false.
Unless it really has to be that way because that quest is designed in that way and i know it in advance.

Quote
You can and it might, but the biggest issue is that you have a large group of people who don't fit in your shelter. The only solution is that bigger shelter, but the occupants don't want to let more people in. Your solution?
That situation is set up in a way that doesnt give you any other solution but to attack.

So its not really a choice.
Sure you can choose to do nothing or just get rid of excess people but those are clearly worse solutions (both should logically cause you much trouble from your own people, or loose leadership and your head) so no one will choose them.


Quote
Well, that's the thing about being a group leader in a crisis. You don't get enough information and you have no idea how things would work out.
Consequences should be surprising sometimes, im just advocating that they make a bit more sense then just being randomly applied bad/evil results.


Lol @ post caster. 
Truth on 2nd post though.
Got one.


I think I may do well as a guy who keeps the spirit of a group up, I'm pretty good with choosing my moments on when to press something, when to encourage people and when to just leave it be for the time being. I think that's a good ability in a leader, to inspire the people.

However, I'm not good at logistics so I would not be a good choice all in all for leader. I mean, I *have* read the Zombie Survival Guide, but... :p I tend to keep my calm but I often overlook vital things that needs to be taken into consideration. Perhaps such instincts would be "sharpened" in a critical situation though.
...click...
Wars ey?
Thats a funny name, i like it. And i have a definite feeling i like you.
-moves a kalashnikov barrel little to the left of wars forehead so it points in his ear-
Me and my buddy Snall... he is standing behind you, dont worry, thats just his kukri in his pocket... have been following you for some days and i have to say we were sorry of how those gits treated you. And all you did was try and make them happier.
Bastards ey? People really behave shitty these days. I guess you wont be sad to hear they got into a nasty accident?
Yeah... you were right when you told them not to go to that town. The houses were so full of zombies as if someone lured them there and locked them up. 8)

What you say you stop sitting there sulking and come with me and Snall? We really need someone who could keep our spirits up while we raid this huge shopping mall i know. Its been barely burned at all. Lots a good stuff in there and you do look like you need some new nikes and some decent food.

Then well go back to our shelter thats getting a bit cramped and...testy... but i guess me and Snall had it coming for saving a whole college female volleyball team. You any good at volleyball? In sand?
We have a lots of sand these days. And they always end up all scratched and bruised. You know any first aid?
Willing to learn? Im sure they will appreciate it.


Logged

I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
Vince
Developer

Posts: 8035



View Profile
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2009, 01:35:12 pm »

But you set the scene so that carrying that guy is a good thing - that can have a bad result. As a moral issue.
No. As something that affects the player. You carry the guy - you get attacked by the zombies. The odds of survival is low, a lot of precious ammo is wasted, a lot of wounded - precious medical supplies are wasted, the gunfire attacks even more zombies, etc. So, while saving the guy is a good thing, and the guy may turn out to be an asset, you'll pay a very high price for him that can cripple your group later on.

So, the issue here isn't "do you save a man or not", but are you willing to pay a very high price to save one man.

Quote
In which you get punished for doing the "good thing".
No all "good" deeds should lead to good outcomes.

Quote
Sure, but if the game forces such improbable outcomes on me after a while i would just give up.
Why improbable?

Quote
I would expect that the guard who has been on duty for 20 hours and is pissed at me for leaving him there would be first to fuck up in some way. And i would expect that a freshly saved woman would be so terrified and grateful she was saved she would put in extra effort for guard duty unlike a guard who had time to relax a bit and is overconfident either in his abilities or weapons or current situation.
That's only one way of looking at it. You are afraid that the guard will be pissed off and cause some shit. You hope that the woman will be grateful enough that she'll do her very best to guard the perimeter. Well, what if she's still in shock and can't be relied yet? What if she didn't sleep for 2 days and is a lot more tired than the guard? What if she gets so overwhelmed by fear that she'll prefer to hide than to guard, potentially being the first to face the zombies? As for the guard, you're in charge. Ideally, if you've proven to be a gentle leader, the guard may decide to give you the finger, while if you aren't afraid to enforce the discipline and shoot people in the face to make a really strong point, the guard would have no choice but to do what he's told.

Quote
Quote
You can and it might, but the biggest issue is that you have a large group of people who don't fit in your shelter. The only solution is that bigger shelter, but the occupants don't want to let more people in. Your solution?
That situation is set up in a way that doesnt give you any other solution but to attack.

So its not really a choice.
a) you can negotiate, offer something valuable. I mentioned that in my first post.
b) you can tell other people that you have no space for them and that they should seek shelter elsewhere. Why should they be your problem? Are you obligated to help every person you see, especially since that involves attacking and killing other people? How is that not a valid choice?

Quote
Sure you can choose to do nothing or just get rid of excess people but those are clearly worse solutions (both should logically cause you much trouble from your own people, or loose leadership and your head) so no one will choose them.
Leadership is not always a democracy. As for the trouble, most people who get to stay will be more than happy to help you boot out the rest because every person who's gone means more food/water/space for those who stay.

Logged
caster
Archmaster

Posts: 2743



View Profile
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2009, 02:12:52 pm »

Quote
No. As something that affects the player. You carry the guy - you get attacked by the zombies. The odds of survival is low, a lot of precious ammo is wasted, a lot of wounded - precious medical supplies are wasted, the gunfire attacks even more zombies, etc. So, while saving the guy is a good thing, and the guy may turn out to be an asset, you'll pay a very high price for him that can cripple your group later on.

So, the issue here isn't "do you save a man or not", but are you willing to pay a very high price to save one man.
Well why didnt you say so immediately?

Quote
No all "good" deeds should lead to good outcomes.
They should?

Quote
Why improbable?
Because it seemed so when you set it up as an example.

Quote
That's only one way of looking at it. You are afraid that the guard will be pissed off and cause some shit. You hope that the woman will be grateful enough that she'll do her very best to guard the perimeter. Well, what if she's still in shock and can't be relied yet? What if she didn't sleep for 2 days and is a lot more tired than the guard? What if she gets so overwhelmed by fear that she'll prefer to hide than to guard, potentially being the first to face the zombies? As for the guard, you're in charge. Ideally, if you've proven to be a gentle leader, the guard may decide to give you the finger, while if you aren't afraid to enforce the discipline and shoot people in the face to make a really strong point, the guard would have no choice but to do what he's told.
Thats another pair of pants.
And those would be the details I as a player need to know so i could make a better decision then seemingly choosing between two options with no idea whats going to happen from whom.

If i "notice" she is stressed out, tired, didnt sleep for 2 days, or hear others talking about it i wouldnt consider her for guard duty.

There are guard duties and guard duties, most often you are inside the shelter on some good vantage point.
There may be some outside guards cast further afield who could be considered first in line if shit hits the fan but those would have to be experienced men, not some refugees we just took in.

Shooting people in the face because they been on duty for 20 hours will quickly give you a bullet in the back or worse from your "underlings" so it should be as dangerous as being gentle in that kind of crazy situation.
Even if you used some other people as example it will only make you look like a tyrant psychotic to everyone.

I dont think that kind of behavior should be the ticket in the sense that it suddenly makes everything easy for that type of character "build" but rather that the game should throw specific troubles at you that would arise from behavior like that and choices you make.

Quote
a) you can negotiate, offer something valuable. I mentioned that in my first post.
Quote
You negotiate with another shelter to take on the extra people, they refuse
Sorry i read this as a given in that example. Didnt notice if behind it.

Quote
b) you can tell other people that you have no space for them and that they should seek shelter elsewhere. Why should they be your problem? Are you obligated to help every person you see, especially since that involves attacking and killing other people? How is that not a valid choice?

Leadership is not always a democracy. As for the trouble, most people who get to stay will be more than happy to help you boot out the rest because every person who's gone means more food/water/space for those who stay.

Well if it is then there is no need to attack the shelter is there?
Then this becomes the easiest/best solution instead.

Logged

I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
mingoran
Apprentice

Posts: 59


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2009, 05:15:48 pm »

Jagged Allience 2 had conflicts between team mates but it would never affected the players leadership. They never blamed the player for inviting people in they didn't like and causing the problems or tried to abandon the team convincing valuable team mates to go with them. It would be interesting to see consequences for both good and bad leadership decisions.
Logged
Fenix
Novice

Posts: 28



View Profile
« Reply #22 on: October 12, 2009, 12:12:23 am »

First things first, this concept sounds pretty damn cool and I can't (but I must) wait for it to become a reality.

With that outta the way...

Unless I'm forced into the position I do not think that I would make a good leader. Even if I were forced into that position I would probably be mediocre at best. Pressure... *shudders*

If I were to rule from the shadows however, like a second in command, adviser type role, I think I would do just fine. That person? Yah, they're dead weight. Drop 'im like he's hot.

Question: Are we going to be able to play different leader roles? (damn me lack o' eloquence, I knew I shoulda wrote this when the words were still fresh in me head, ah well)
Logged

Quote
I too hate that bullshit when you kill someone who has bitching armor, the shiniest fucking sword, etc, all the game gives you is 20 bucks and a fucking potion.
Brian
Moderator

Posts: 1206



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: October 12, 2009, 12:22:24 pm »

If I were to rule from the shadows however, like a second in command, adviser type role, I think I would do just fine. That person? Yah, they're dead weight. Drop 'im like he's hot.

Question: Are we going to be able to play different leader roles? (damn me lack o' eloquence, I knew I shoulda wrote this when the words were still fresh in me head, ah well)

Through the pressure of the situation or other people's reluctance to be the voice of authority, your character will step up and call the shots. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't a lot of other people who might have an opinion or a strong suggestion, but you ultimately make the tough calls and take the credit or blame for your decisions. As it has been pointed out before, not everybody in your group is going to see every issue the same way, so it's very much a please some of the people some of the time situation. Perhaps if you can get a few of the other respected members of the Shelter to see things your way, more people will accept your decisions. 
Logged
caster
Archmaster

Posts: 2743



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2009, 12:29:38 pm »

It would be amazing if such "quests" were made in less direct way.
 like - get me this and this and ill have more favor toward you.

It would be very cool if we could talk to those NPCs, get a sense of they are about and then just do things on our own, without anything formal logged in, just get into situations and make choices - behave in certain ways and those NPCs would notice it and change behavior depending.

Naturally they cannot know everything i do but they could hear about it from others in the group or such. Plus those they could "see" close to them, in the shelter and so on.

Then i guess there wouldnt be any harm in getting some official quests from those characters from time to time. As an addition.
Logged

I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
UbAh
Journeyman

Posts: 162


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: October 12, 2009, 01:27:30 pm »

It would be amazing if such "quests" were made in less direct way.
And refreshing!




Not sure if I would be a "good guy" or even do a good job as a leader, but I don't think it would change how many people I know relate to me.  I am commonly asked for advice and my opinion on how to solve a problem, to which I give my best effort and put thought into.  If I give advice that doesn't work out people don't tend to hold it against me, because I am always doing it in a way that is working with them to come up with a solution.  In this way we both always deserve guilt or congrats so there is no great need to assign credit or blame.  I don't know how well that would work with a crowd but thats how I am always put into a position I would define as leadership.

On the other hand when I make a decision as to what I am going to do I don't allow others to push me into another choice.  If someone is pushing me in such a way that I feel they are trying to control me I often push back or ignore them out of anger.  This is where I could see my personality having issues with others, because I will give advice for others if they ask, and listen to advice when it is given but if someone tells me I must do something I will give that thing less merit even if it is a good idea.
Logged
One Wolf
Archmaster

Posts: 2226


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: October 12, 2009, 07:46:47 pm »

This is an interesting element to consider. 

I have firearms training, a minor cache of assault weaponry, 10+ years instructing/training in martial arts, medical supplies, army field manuals for edible plant identification, medical triage and combat tactics, assorted edged weapons (butterflies, a SOG Seal Combat knife, a set of carbon Kama [and training], a 10 1/2 inch carbon-steel bowie and a hand-forged katana to name a few),  7 years in a leadership role running a crew of 3-7 guys and I handle myself well under pressure. 

I have done a fair amount of work alongside veterans and several have remarked unsolicited that I would make a fine commander. 

On many accounts I should make a good leader.

I'm not so sure, however, and I think the reasons for that uncertainty could potentially make this ingame dynamic a dicey proposition. 

I tend to be fairly certain of my own correctness, at times of elevated pressure I tend to be overbearing, I am prone to bouts of moderate to high levels of violence, and I tend to be ruthless and unforgiving towards those I perceive as weak.  I thrive on high levels of pressure, often putting myself into situations that could easily have been avoided.  I can't bear almost any measure of authority (over me, I mean).

So I can't help but wonder, how would my apparent qualifications as a suitable leader in the Zomboclypse prove to be a hindrance instead?  It's in your hands Brian!
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 07:48:26 pm by One Wolf » Logged

"He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man."
Justme
Journeyman

Posts: 122



View Profile
« Reply #27 on: October 16, 2009, 07:08:49 am »

Quote
I have firearms training, a minor cache of assault weaponry, 10+ years instructing/training in martial arts, medical supplies, army field manuals for edible plant identification, medical triage and combat tactics, assorted edged weapons (butterflies, a SOG Seal Combat knife, a set of carbon Kama [and training], a 10 1/2 inch carbon-steel bowie and a hand-forged katana to name a few),  7 years in a leadership role running a crew of 3-7 guys and I handle myself well under pressure.

Honestly? If zombie apocalypse started tomorrow causing widespread panic and "homo homini lupus"-like behavior I'd try to accomplish 2 things:

1. Find a way to prevent the zombies from eating my brain.
2. Find a way to avoid meeting the likes of you

Paranoia, military fetish,  messianic syndrome and super-inflated ego are NOT the traits people usually seek in a leader.
Logged
caster
Archmaster

Posts: 2743



View Profile
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2009, 08:04:14 am »

Smile Now, now... i think One Wolf exhibits unusual level of self understanding. Though thats that doesnt account for much if its not followed by some action.

Honestly, i couldn't find messianic syndrome there. Grin

Paranoia, military fetish,  messianic syndrome and super-inflated ego are NOT the traits people usually seek in a leader.
Isnt it funny thats what they get all the time.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2009, 08:26:17 am by caster » Logged

I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
SnallTrippin
*
Posts: 690


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2009, 09:05:00 am »

Smile Now, now... i think One Wolf exhibits unusual level of self understanding. Though thats that doesnt account for much if its not followed by some action.

Honestly, i couldn't find messianic syndrome there. Grin

Paranoia, military fetish,  messianic syndrome and super-inflated ego are NOT the traits people usually seek in a leader.
Isnt it funny thats what they get all the time.

Lol Caster, I was about to reply, "People don't usually choose their leader." Whatever our quasi-democracy has 'taught' us ...assuming most of us live in the US or Greco-Roman Historically Linked Society. GRHLS (GIRLS). 

Although who the hell trains with a friggin kama I don't know..that's weird.  I have a nice 9260 katana, s'coo but not great, i'd use my kukri for close up work though...damn zombies.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
Print
Jump to: