Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Monday Design Update 10/5 - Feared or Loved?  (Read 16837 times)
Brian
Moderator

Posts: 1206



View Profile
« on: October 06, 2009, 01:54:36 am »

This week, I began thinking about just what kind of leader I would be in a crisis. Oh, don't worry, there is no fear or loved counter in the game, but one of the goals of the game is to make the player handle a group during a crisis and, just possibly, find out that maybe they aren't the person they think they are. What I mean is, the people who might think they would be an even-handed, rational and kind leader, might find themselves shooting the the shrill, obnoxious woman that keeps criticizing every decision of theirs. Or the person that tries to please everyone ends up pleasing no one. Or the person that thought it was swell to grow their numbers for safety finds out that it's a chore to keep that many people fed.

We're not trying to make the allies in the game a collection of stats. They're people, with their own quirks, strengths, and weaknesses. They're not all action heroes, and some of them can't even fight. They aren't guaranteed companions like in most games - the player has to be able to do something for them. Maybe that involves providing shelter or food, and maybe it means barking louder than them. Most of all, the personalities in the game don't necessarily get along with each other - the only thing that can unite them is strong leadership. This doesn't mean being fair or nice or a complete monster - maybe that might work for your group, I don't know - but the people that the player allys themselves with are going to need someone to keep them together and make the decisions that overall benefit the group in the long run, even if it means sacrificing or displeasing a few of them. In a lot of ways, the player has to be a politician in addition to being a fighter/thief/healer in their role as a leader. And if all else fails, you could try to just go it on your own.

Anyhow, opening up discussion to the group - what kind of leader do you think you would be in the zombie apocalypse? Assuming you don't live next to a soldier, secret agent, surgeon, astronaut, bare-knuckle boxer, and sniper, if you had to keep ten of your neighbors alive in an emergency situation, could you do it? What kind of problems would you encounter? How many do you think would make it to a month?

(When the game comes out, check back on this post and see if you lived up to your expectations.) 
Logged
SnallTrippin
*
Posts: 690


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 02:03:13 am »

Dead weight is just that, dead.  Although once people had been with me/group for a while I think I/group would find it had developed some loyalty as a unit, I would hope anyway.

Could I get some people through it? (If it were possible to truly live through it..)  I think I could, if I found the right people anyway.  I'm a pretty big male individual with a store of native intelligence and a large kukri knife.  I don't think I'd try in the local area though, so it'd be interesting to see how well I meshed with others in a better survival location..I think I'd make a better 2nd in command if I could find someone who I thought knew wtf they were doing.
Logged
Gondolin
Craftsman

Posts: 226



View Profile
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 06:02:53 am »

A fine example of leadership.
Logged

I say no to demon ponies.
Plalito
Developer

Posts: 203


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2009, 06:35:18 am »

Interesting topic.

What kind of leader do you think you would be in the zombie apocalypse?
It's hard to say what kind I would be, but I'm fairly certain I wouldn't take it to any extremes. Naturally I think any situation can be resolved, even if the resolution is me removing myself from the equation. All else fails, I'll just go it alone. Though I hope you put my predictions to the test. It would be great to finally play the game and to realize that I'm truly just an asshole.

What kind of problems would you encounter?
People with strong conviction and little sense probably.

How many do you think would make it to a month?
Out of the ten? Well that's hard to say, but I'll throw out a number and see how close I can make it. Nine ish...

(When the game comes out, check back on this post and see if you lived up to your expectations.)
Looking forward to it.

Edit: Spelling- Don't want to look back at this post years from now only to find out that I also couldn't spell.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 11:32:12 pm by Plalito » Logged
caster
Archmaster

Posts: 2743



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2009, 12:11:37 pm »

Could I get some people through it? (If it were possible to truly live through it..)  I think I could, if I found the right people anyway.
No kiddin?

Quote
I'm a pretty big male individual with a store of native intelligence and a large kukri knife.
Such an obvious target, i would immediately go after guys like this, probably with sniper fire or long range automatic weapons in weirdest moments.
Or i would follow them for a few days (ahh... tracking... where art thou?) figure out where they are heading, circle around in front of them setting up all sorts of trip mines in places of interest.
Surprises like luring a dozen zombies into some room and locking them up he hehe to wait.
Or making noise then hiding while they get spammed in zombies. Just when they thought they would get a rest, finally.


I don't think I'd try in the local area though, so it'd be interesting to see how well I meshed with others in a better survival location..I think I'd make a better 2nd in command if I could find someone who I thought knew wtf they were doing.
Ahh!... Sorry! Why didnt you say so immediately big pal?
:Slapshimontheback:
Look, i have a good doc with me, im sure hell be able to patch that up! Most of it... Anyway! I can already see bright future ahead of us my man. Girls! Money! Whaddya say A? Aaaa i see you like it.
Look... im really sorry about blowing your party up like that, and those pate antinfantry trip mines in that apothecary, yknow... im sure theyve been really nice people ... let me take those weapons of you, your hurt man, must be heavy, ... what was i saying...?
You know? I know a lot more nice people... like really nice.
Capishi?

:crocodilegrin:

Ah, you just rest a while now, Doc is just coming up behind us and i have to take care of some stuff... Waste not want not ey?
Turns away and starts walking toward several corpses across the streat, takes out small radio, puts dark sunglasses back on:
"Doc, we have a new addition to our little team,.... yes very useful... almost took my leg off with that kukri, bastard... no im fine... but you best hurry anyway... also...tell Ziena not to kill him immediately would you?
click-
Walks away slowly. One dark lens turns back briefly.
You better watch out around Ziena heh, ... she likes to cut balls off people while they sleep.
I only tell you cause i like ya... yknow?

Pulls out a long silvery blade from dark jacket, crouches next to a body and starts cutting away.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 01:46:15 pm by caster » Logged

I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
Hector
Expert

Posts: 1130



View Profile
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2009, 12:28:19 pm »

Since my neighbours are all OAPs, they'd be fucked.  Ten average people, probably also fucked because average people - especially in groups - are fairly stupid.  If I could get ten reasonably bright people, I think I could get them through it.  The local sports shop has crossbows and decent sized knives.  Given that guns are fairly difficult to get hold of legally here, we'd have to travel about 15 miles to the nearest city and hope the guy who runs the gun shop either doesn't mind trading guns and ammo for other supplies or is dead.  I'd probably have a much better chance in the US than here in the UK though, if only because over there we'd have more chance of finding a useful weapon of some description.
Logged

For once we get a game with evil options that let you play malevolent character not just an obnoxious cunt. Happy times.

"Pardon me, good sir, might I take a moment to stab you in the lungs?"
Starwars
*
Posts: 1264



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2009, 01:05:20 pm »

I think I may do well as a guy who keeps the spirit of a group up, I'm pretty good with choosing my moments on when to press something, when to encourage people and when to just leave it be for the time being. I think that's a good ability in a leader, to inspire the people.

However, I'm not good at logistics so I would not be a good choice all in all for leader. I mean, I *have* read the Zombie Survival Guide, but... :p I tend to keep my calm but I often overlook vital things that needs to be taken into consideration. Perhaps such instincts would be "sharpened" in a critical situation though.

Also, if such a situation were to arise, somehow I feel that I'd try to take control over the group and organize people. At least if I saw that there *is* no clear leader, or if the leader is not doing a good job. Obviously that sort of thing could lead to disaster though as people get "power hungry". I'm sure that's something we'll see in the game as well, hehe.
Logged

Vince: "We strongly believe that the hardcore player doesn't want to be loved, but wants to be kicked in the balls and then kneed in the face."

Check out some of my home-recordings: http://www.youtube.com/user/Starwars83/videos?flow=grid&view=0
caster
Archmaster

Posts: 2743



View Profile
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2009, 04:18:38 pm »

My work in the last two years put me in the situation of a real authority because of service i provide. It also requires a sort of obedience in some things from often very large group of people, since they should follow my instructions when operating different systems im in charge and responsible of.
For their own sake mostly Smile and for my nerves sake too after that.

However im not the official leader, since the role of the "leader" is just awarded to some guy - so he can be a leader.

I found the dynamic of people in between a "leader" and someone who actually keeps things running for reals and makes problems go away one way or the other  - interesting.

Since i was looking at them all from this... expanded viewpoint, thought of abusing such relations seemed lowly and even despicable to me, so with some deviations from the rule i set out on the altruistic path.
Creates a set of specific problems.

Just like some other path creates a set of its own kind of problems.


-
Overall, humans are plagued by small arguments and resentments that they swallow over time, and keep in themselves just because they each seem small, insignificant or even childish thing - so then even when all is good you have sudden fights over a glass or place where someone sat or just a conversation going to hell.


However, in times of great catastrophic events i have witnessed that people forget all that shit and just help each other out and treat each other humanly for once. It may be brief when you look at it later on, but its there.

Logged

I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
SnallTrippin
*
Posts: 690


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2009, 11:17:35 pm »

Lol @ post caster. 
Truth on 2nd post though.
Logged
Dicksmoker
Craftsman

Posts: 211



View Profile
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 01:48:51 am »

So how exactly do you end up becoming a leader in this game?

My impressions seem to be that it's forced on you.
Logged
SnallTrippin
*
Posts: 690


View Profile
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 02:09:13 am »

If you convince people to follow you, you're a leader.
Logged
caster
Archmaster

Posts: 2743



View Profile
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 12:02:57 pm »

Yeah, i guess you collect people over time.

But back to the subject, i think i would be a strange kind of leader, because i would behave depending on the situation and people we meet.
Sometimes i would do totally altruistic stuff, then i would kill (remove, erase) NPCs when i decide its best and it would seem totally insane to anyone that would go along well with my altruistic streak.
Then other times i would be normal, concerned talking, listening and understanding.

Im afraid after a while, nobody in the group would know what to think of me.
Crazy, violent bastards would hate my guts because i wouldnt let them do what they enjoy doing all the time. Nicer people would think me mad when they would see me fight, defend from other groups or attack them.... I would remove all the "sleazy bastard that thinks nobody can see him" types i ran into so those wouldnt be a problem...
Hmm... it seems that i would best be careful about who i hang on to.

It really depends on the NPCs i find. If i could collect some people who are usually cool, dont get agitated quickly and so on.... i might do fine for a longer time.

But it cannot be that simple, can it?
Sometimes i will find an NPC that i would hold onto because i wouldnt be able to let go.
Because i would like the guy, or her.

Or because the need is so pressing that i have to take on that guy who knows something i need or everything will go to hell, even though he is a scumbag who will get everyone else fighting and arguing, or even worse.

And then usually when you least need it, some of my guys will get bitten, zombified or close.
Hell, maybe they will be so into all that no one will notice how crazy i am, all the time.
Smile
Then again, if we are under more or less constant threat from zombies and its an apocalypse and stuff, tolerances for everything  loosen up considerably.  The immediate threat and need to survive next moment really clears up relationships in ways you wouldnt believe.

I guess most of these problems in game will arise in the Shelter anyway, in between interesting moments.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 01:08:02 pm by caster » Logged

I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
Vince
Developer

Posts: 8069



View Profile
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 01:12:29 pm »

That's an interesting topic indeed. The way I see it, what most people would want in a pretty much any crisis is someone who knows what to do (even if he/she doesn't). Overall, people are much more comfortable following than leading - less responsibilities this way, so anyone who acts decisively enough will instantly attract some following.

So this leadership is all about making choices, and - since you have 0 experience - dealing with unexpected consequences. I'd expect the immediate decisions to be something like:

- charity vs tight ship - do you try to save as many people as you can or do you cherry-pick the survivors?

- peaceful co-existence with other groups vs aggressive expansion

- democracy vs dictatorship

Overall though, it would be great if instead of approaching the leadership from "I'll be a good and wise leader" or "I'll be an evil tyrant!", you'd be offered different scenarios (hopefully plenty of text-adventure stuff) and even seemingly good decisions (saving everyone) would lead to disastrous consequences, dooming the party, while some hard, seemingly evil decisions will save it. Thus, the absolute good (for the sake of good) would be as bad for the party as the absolute evil.
Logged
caster
Archmaster

Posts: 2743



View Profile
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 01:28:13 pm »

I kinda have a feeling this game will stay away from absolutes of good and evil.

From all ive read (and i hope it isnt just wishful thinking on my part) what we will deal with here is a more organic situation, with emphasis on everyday people and how they would react - then a gamey evil vs good cliche.
Quote
We're not trying to make the allies in the game a collection of stats. They're people, with their own quirks, strengths, and weaknesses. They're not all action heroes, and some of them can't even fight

Quote
if you had to keep ten of your neighbors alive in an emergency situation, could you do it?


This:
Quote
even seemingly good decisions (saving everyone) would lead to disastrous consequences, dooming the party, while some hard, seemingly evil decisions will save it. Thus, the absolute good (for the sake of good) would be as bad for the party as the absolute evil.
- to me, says only that absolute evil and good consequences have changed places.
Nothing else. Its not moral grayness. Its just the same thing only reversed.
But maybe you were just talking in extremes as example?

Logged

I don't know, I don't care, and it doesn't make any difference! - Albert Einstein


The trouble ain't that there is too many fools, but that the lightning ain't distributed right.
Vince
Developer

Posts: 8069



View Profile
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2009, 02:06:25 pm »

You didn't get it. I'm not saying that evil is the new good. I'm saying that good for the sake of good is as bad (when it comes to consequences) as evil for the sake of evil. Some examples:

A) You find a wounded (not bitten) man. You decide to take him with you. He falls unconscious (fever) and starts moaning. Because he is unconscious, you have to carry him, so your traveling speed is very slow. His moans generate noise and will attract zombies. Do you abandon a helpless man (a bad act no matter how you look at it) or try to make it (odds of survival - 5%). Having high medical skills will help you keep him awake and thus quiet.

B) You perimeter guard complains that he's tired and been on duty for the last 20 hours. He points out that some freshly rescued woman didn't do any guard duty yet. You can tell the guard to shut the fuck up and do his job until you tell him otherwise or you can send the woman to relieve him because it's fair. The woman falls asleep and zombies break into the shelter.

C) You rescue too many people and your shelter is overcrowded. You negotiate with another shelter to take on the extra people, they refuse (if you don't have the skills or anything of value to offer). If you do nothing, these people will surely die. If you attack the other shelter, some people will die on both sides, but many will live.

Etc.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3   Go Up
Print
Jump to: