Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 12   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Game (and demo) endings  (Read 87364 times)
luckyb0y
Craftsman

Posts: 201



View Profile
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2009, 08:45:28 am »

1. Agree. If the style of dialogues is modern I don't see a reason to insert made up or ancient-sounding swear words.

2. Ditto. While this kind of language was heard most in the gutters it certainly was present in the palaces and the like.

3. The problem is not that NPCs swear too much. After all it's a part of their character. I know it's a dark and gritty setting, but being civil doesn't equal being goody two-shoes. I dislike such behaviour and find the PC an insufferable twat. That could seriously hamper the enjoyment of the game. Dialogue options at least give you a choice so you can decide if your character would say something or not. Here you don't give a choice and what's more you impose certain attitude on the PC.
Logged

Vince
Developer

Posts: 8690



View Profile
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2009, 08:50:30 am »

I love it when people quickly take critisism onboard Smile
I don't think that anyone can claim that we dismiss criticism. We've always listened to the feedback, no matter how critical and negative, and the current state of the game is a "living" proof of that.

However, it doesn't mean that every time someone says "I don't like it!", we'll accept it as the gospel's truth and start changing things immediately. We think before we do something. If we did something, there is some logic, some reasoning behind it. Presenting this logic and reasoning isn't being defensive or close-minded. It's called initiating a dialogue.
Logged
Gareth
*
Posts: 3299


Indubitably


View Profile WWW
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2009, 08:53:33 am »

Quote
No shit. For the record, they didn't speak modern English either, but nobody seems to complain about it. Do you really think that the original Vulgar Latin swearing would fit the modern English better?

That doesn't really make a difference, certain words/phrases/terms stand out as more modern/belonging only to a specific time period than others. "The" or "tree" doesn't have the same sense of historical placement as "milord", "guvnor", "kingpin", "psychoanalysis" or "radioactive isotope", for example. You do agree you couldn't have one of the characters say "this criminal is pschologically unhinged, probably due to repressed childhood trauma or abuse" and it fit in your quasi-roman setting, right? Whereas you could say "he was beaten as a boy and it made him mad as a rabid dog". Two ways of saying things, both English. One sounds modern, the other not.

Some words/expressions sound "Victorian". Some sound "Medieval". Some sound "Arabian". Some sound "Modern". Modern swear words sound modern to most people. All these words are English, of course, but the point is that they bring with them a context which doesn't quite fit the time period, in my and a lot of people's opinions.

Quote
Besides, "fuck" was used quite often in Rome (the HBO show) and it's not like it ruined the immersion.

Haven't watched it. Probably would have stood out to me. I've yet to encounter a non-modern period piece where it doesn't.

Quote
Complaint #2: "Yeah the profanity feels a little out of place for that type of era."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catullus_16

The following adaptation attempts to convey the attitude of this poem:

        I'm gonna fuck you guys up the ass and shove my cock down your throats,
        yes, you, Aurelius--you fucking cocksucker--and you too, Furius, you faggot!
        Just because my verses are tender doesn't mean
        that I've gone all soft. Sure, a poet should focus
        on writing poetry and not on sex; but does that
        mean they can't write about sex? If a poem is
        in good taste, well-written and erotic,
        it can give massive boners to hairy old men,
        not just to horny teenagers. You think I'm a sissy
        just because I write about thousands of kisses?
        I'm gonna fuck you guys up the ass and shove my cock down your throats!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_profanity

Complaint #3: the lady doth swear too much - excessive profanity alert!

I don't think the complain was the quantity of profanity so much as the modern swear words.




Logged

“The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it.” - George Bernard Shaw

My blog
Vince
Developer

Posts: 8690



View Profile
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2009, 09:01:04 am »

3. The problem is not that NPCs swear too much. After all it's a part of their character. I know it's a dark and gritty setting, but being civil doesn't equal being goody two-shoes. I dislike such behaviour and find the PC an insufferable twat. That could seriously hamper the enjoyment of the game. Dialogue options at least give you a choice so you can decide if your character would say something or not. Here you don't give a choice and what's more you impose certain attitude on the PC.
That's a fair point. Overall, as you probably noticed, I kept PC responses very neutral. However, in some cases, some responses must have a certain attitude.

In this particular case, six imperial guards just barged into your room. What are your options? To remain civil and kindly ask them to leave? Point out that killing people is not nice?

Haven't watched it. Probably would have stood out to me. I've yet to encounter a non-modern period piece where it doesn't.
It's fucking awesome. You MUST watch it asap. Seriously.
Logged
luckyb0y
Craftsman

Posts: 201



View Profile
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2009, 09:17:11 am »

I was mostly refering to these:

A praetorian guard? You, the Champion of the fucking Arena? He's gotta be fucking kidding. It's almost an insult. What did one of the dead Emperors say? "I'd rather be first in command of a village than second in the capital city." Teron it is then.

The fucker made a fortune on you.

You tell the guards you work for Gaelius and add "fuck off" for a good measure.

These are hardly neutral.
Logged

Vince
Developer

Posts: 8690



View Profile
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2009, 09:22:47 am »

That's teh storytelling mode. Artistic license and all that. Anyway, that's why I said that we are experimenting and posted the sample ending for discussion purposes.
Logged
Wrath of Dagon
Colonist
*
Posts: 3273



View Profile
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2009, 09:23:15 am »

It's not really the swearing, it's that it needs to be more diversified. Gareth made some good suggestions on what to call  the arena master. The only one I would keep is the **** off to the guards.
Logged

Don't graze me bro!

4 8 10 10 4 4
Sleet
Craftsman

Posts: 200



View Profile
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2009, 09:35:54 am »

Personally I don't swear much vocally or in my writing/posting.
The synopsis created for the ending for the winner works well for me. The champion thinks that way (using "fuck" and its derivatives) and talks that way. I will just not be able to read the exact text to my son while we play. Smile
As well, I found the swearing in the HBO "Rome" to fit quite well. as Vince said, if you have not seen it, sacrilege!
And Joe's take? totally agree. An awesome writer by the way. Just finishing up Last Argument of Kings.
Logged
Vince
Developer

Posts: 8690



View Profile
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2009, 09:38:54 am »

What a great trilogy. One of the best I've read in the last 10 years.
Logged
micks
*
Posts: 128



View Profile
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2009, 10:17:33 am »

Using modern English in place of a much older language is a simple and logical substitution which I have no problem accepting, even if it means there are words and phrases that may sound anachronistic (as they stem from modern contexts and metaphors), if they do not refer directly to things that simply do not exist in the game's world.
You can use "kingpin" regardless of how the modern word originated, because it serves to describe social position for which the hypothetical older language would have its own expression originating from metaphors that we would find difficult to comprehend if translated literally. I agree that using words like "Ethernet" or "psychonalysis" wouldn't make sense, but that's not what Vince does, either.
On the other hand, I find various fake attempts at Middle/Early Modern English elements mixed into modern language, as found in fantasy computer games, much more jarring. They are often grammatically nonsensical and filled of all sorts of anachronisms (possibly without realising - the Ultima and Thief series are two good examples).
 
As for the expletives, I'd probably take one out of the "...fucking Arena? He's gotta be fucking kidding." sequence.
Logged
suibhne
DS Silver Patrons
*
Posts: 2654


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2009, 10:45:23 am »

The profanity itself doesn't bother me. What frustrates me is that I'd be unlikely to ever play such a self-centered/street-tough jackass of a character in any game - I just can't identify with that. You run a big risk by determining and including so much of the PC's personality; if it doesn't match with the player's own expectation, it can really undermine the player's sense of agency and can weaken the RPG-ness of the game.

I'm also concerned that the checks won't be apparent. I didn't perceive that there were any checks at all when I read the first story; I only understood the structure when I reviewed the others. Without any clear tie to the player's character build and choices, these feel a bit puzzling - like a purely intellectual exercise with no direct connection to the game as such. Can you make the skill/attribute/whatever checks a lot clearer in the text? Honestly, I'm not sure it will be possible to do without clearly referencing the game mechanics; simply saying something like "Your dexterity isn't equal to the task" sounds awkward and gamey but still doesn't adequately reference the underlying game mechanics.
Logged
Vince
Developer

Posts: 8690



View Profile
« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2009, 10:59:40 am »

I think you guys missed the point here. You'll see proper dialogue screens and all available options. Then after the demo is completed, you'll see this ending summarizing what you did. The story isn't interactive, it's a summary.

http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1060961553&postcount=35
« Last Edit: August 19, 2009, 11:01:25 am by Vince » Logged
Imbecile
Craftsman

Posts: 237



View Profile
« Reply #42 on: August 19, 2009, 11:02:28 am »

Personally I don't have an issue with the quantity of swearing or style of the language. Its in keeping with the rest (and as mentioned the f'ing and blinding from Joe Abercrombies characters seemed perfectly natural)

I can see that some might not like the way the main character chooses to talk sometimes. This is a downside in having no "false" options, that simply change the manner of delivery but lead to the same result.

Is roleplaying just in the choices, or is also in the delivery?*


*though if I had to choose one or the other I would favour choices.

Logged
Vince
Developer

Posts: 8690



View Profile
« Reply #43 on: August 19, 2009, 11:05:33 am »

In the choices.
Logged
Benedict
Apprentice

Posts: 69


View Profile
« Reply #44 on: August 19, 2009, 11:18:48 am »

Yeah the profanity feels a little out of place for that type of era. Feels too modern. I think "fuck" should mostly be used in regards to sex and not much else. That would feel more realistic. So having it as a verb is good, and maybe occasionally as an adjective, but as an adverb and noun it's really quite jarring.

The Romans just had wussy words like Fututio and Irrumatio though, they don't have the same ring at all.

I'm happy with current swearwords myself, anything else seems forced. All the way through  Battlestar Galactica I was yelling (pointlessly) at them to just say Fuck rather than all this stupid Frack nonsense.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 12   Go Up
Print
Jump to: