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1  Other / General Discussion / Re: Zoe Quinn Corruption on: November 18, 2014, 09:13:56 pm
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Gamergate advocates desperately need to organize, and then effectively, publicly attack the repugnant misogyny that has so far supported their cause and characterized much of their messaging. That hasn't happened yet, has it?

And how do you suppose you do that on a hashtag campaign hosted entirely on a medium renowned for people who will literally say things they don't agree with and rile people up because they have nothing better to do?

I've posted several movement wide instances that publicly say in no uncertain terms "Do not harass or make slurs against the opposition".

I asked the question then and got no response, so I'll ask it now: What more can be done but this?
2  Other / General Discussion / Re: Yet more RP Recruiting (Conan this time) on: November 18, 2014, 05:17:18 pm
It would be on Skype, yes.

Unfortunately I had to suspend it a week before we were set to start because I'm spending my weeks tutoring my nephew and lack the time to actually develop a campaign.

When I get some more time (which I will eventually) I'll post here again and see it anyone is interested.

We would be using the "Blade of the Iron Throne" ( http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/114920/Blade-of-the-Iron-Throne-BW-Edition ) system and as usual, I would provide the supplies.
3  Other / General Discussion / Re: Zoe Quinn Corruption on: November 18, 2014, 01:16:53 pm
Probably for the same reasons all the other people in that thread taken this up whit her. Homophobia and misogyny, perhaps? Or could it be that she was a senior writer for BioWare who openly said she hates playing the kinds of games she works on? Ironically, that thread has unflattering posts about Hepler from several users who chimed in here to say that that there is absolutely nothing to GG other than misogyny and harassment.

This should have shed some light on the dynamics of the current situation. This should have made you (plural) think twice about painting large groups of people with a wide brush and making bold claims about their inner motives. But, apparently, it did nothing of the sort.

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You did not. However, you participated in that thread and you are a long-standing user of the forum where it exists. I urge you and other here to imagine a scenario where someone back in 2012 took proper time to frame that thread as a part of a harassment campaign.

People who live in glass houses should aim their stones with more care. (Not directed at you personally. I have no issues what you said.)

Thank you, that was entirely my point in bringing it back up. I thought seeing vaguely the same idea in a different context might help.
4  Other / General Discussion / Re: Zoe Quinn Corruption on: November 18, 2014, 01:10:14 pm
Why would you take this up with her in particular, though? Why wouldn't you take it up with whoever makes the decisions at Bioware? You think she got to make the call on what to kind of sexuality to include? The people in charge had an endless series of meetings, decided "let's gay it up!", then hired someone to help them do that.

Despite the news that the scene was not actually end the game, I'm going to answer this as if it was in light of my comments.

I do? My stating that her writing is horrible and that the political commentary has no place in the game is not a condemnation of her as a human being, Its my opinion that, if that's the reason she was hired then she should be fired and the company reassess its writing department. Its not like its entirely her fault, the executives or whoever is directly in charge also shares blame and should be made to change.

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As for her decision to take the job, how many good jobs are are out there for writer/english major/gender studies grads? She got offered a job, she took it. If she can't write, it's the person who hired her whose fault it is.

Yes it is, I still expect them to revise their writing team by reversing those decisions.

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If you are a cheese aficionado and read Cheese Magazine, and they get a vegan to write about fake-cheese grilled sandwiches, you write a letter to the editor to complain, and maybe cancel your subscription. You probably shouldn't send the vegan death threats.

Except, you know, I didn't send death threats to the vegan? I said that the vegan cheese was not appropriate for this magazine and demanded the hiring practice be reversed?
5  Other / General Discussion / Re: Zoe Quinn Corruption on: November 12, 2014, 11:00:10 pm
I don't know anything about hepler or political demagoguristic nepotistic corruption, but I could see hiring a person who can write, full stop, regardless of their affection for the medium.

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My own reaction back then is particularly ironic now as I had been clamourring for the business to start hiring "real writers" rather than "glorified hobbyist multi-classes" for years. Now, I'm still not particularly fond of a lot of what little I know of Hepler's writing, but I really don't agree that you have to somehow be super passionate of games to work in the business. It kind of smells of "how dare she work with something I would love to work with and not love it; don't she undestand she should be fortunate to have her hobby as a job!" mentality that stems from an idolisation of the field that reality won't ever be able to reflect.

My point was not that she doesn't deserve the job because she doesn't like video games as much as I do, it was that her writing is 1) IMO horrible, likely influenced by her lack of game play and dislike of the medium for which she writes. And 2) Despite more or less despising the medium, she took a job for a gaming company and proceeds to introduce totally inappropriate political commentary for the field. Because an Action shooter Scifi RPG is the right place to discuss homosexuality...

I would even give her a pass if it wasn't so ridiculously out of place and so thoroughly one dimensional.  Its not a well rounded discussion, or a throwaway line for Gamers who might wanna play someone of their own orientation (which I totally get), Its an entire chapter of the game devoted to educating your crew about Gay Rights and Homosexual identity, I might be wrong, But I'm gonna go ahead and wager that the game doesin't allow you to take a contrary viewpoint.

This is akin to playing in AOD and stumbling upon a quest chain devoted to showing how Food Stamps is a drain on society and generally harmful to the downtrodden, when you should really just give them Bootstraps. Its absolutely ludicrous and totally inappropriate to the context and medium, not to mention how anyone would (and should) feel like they just got force fed a political diatribe.
6  Other / General Discussion / Re: Zoe Quinn Corruption on: November 08, 2014, 09:58:57 pm
I was thinking about this all and remembered a specific thread here from years ago that seems pertinent to the issues here.

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2441.0.html

This would be a prime example of Political Demagoguery in Video Games and the kind of corrupt nepotism that has someone like Hepler land a job as the senior writer at Bioware despite not liking games and wanting to fast forward past all the gameplay. Much like some other professionals who loathe their audience.
7  Other / General Discussion / Re: Zoe Quinn Corruption on: November 01, 2014, 03:55:46 pm
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I tried to highlight the points here which are easily identified as various forms of classic argument from ignorance fallacy - done completely unintentionally in this case.
Surely if that kind of logic is taken as modus operandi we can all accuse each other of whatever we want... ? Right?
It is completely the same as if i would say "well, look.. i dont know if Darkthia did "whatever horrible thing i can invent - so he should be accused of these things". Or being held under suspicion until he manages to prove he is "innocent".

I'm well aware of the argument and fallacy, it does not apply in these circumstances because this is not a philosophical discourse or rhetoric class, This is a real action that happened in reality.

There is a term in politics and the law that regulates it (at least here in the States) called "The Appearance of Corruption" meaning that even if hard proof cannot be determined, engaging in actions that might seriously question your ethical standards and raise the question about whether Corruption might have been involved is also unacceptable.

I am holding them to the same standard as I hold politicians and Main Stream Journalists. Its is entirely their responsibility to know the limits of ethics, What could be viewed as Corruption and make sure they are not violating either.

When the original argument of corruption and personal ties was levied at them they responded "Well of course we are personal freinds/lovers/etc with people in the industry, that's who we hang out with all day.

Now compare that with this example is just made up: When http://www.impawards.com/tv/posters/anderson_cooper_360_ver6_xlg.jpg was interviewed about his personal friendships with politicians and a particular romantic tryst with one of them he responded "Of course I'm friends/lovers with politicians, that's who I hang out with all day! Everyone does it, its no big deal."

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That is a trap that distorts the whole discussion into what it is.
Not an easy thing to acknowledge and distance oneself from either.
But a very effective and simple trick that is counted on by various "hubris feeding" individuals, commonly refereed to as "trolls", though that is far to lenient of an expression.

Which is the actual reason behind devaluation of such real concerns.
Its a kind of a simple reverse psychology trick that is hard to notice since we as humans have a bit of a blind spot there.
We are very easily suckered into it and fooled by it.

I am going to assume your not actually insinuating that I am a Troll.

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Then there are those few highlighted sentences basically saying: " i dont know enough about this specific thing to accuse and slander and create suspicions"

I am of the opinion that waiting for a Court case to be settled to determine the truth of the statements is perfectly normal and acceptable.

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"and then i even say after that that they are not correct" (but might be because we or i myself dont know).

I never claim they were not Correct (I apologized for assuming that some of the other things were correct before more accurate info was available) I said that they were suspicious and lack hard evidence either way, considering the only evidence presented is the suspect parties own statement on the matter and the Kotaku play on words article claim.

See my post about the Appearance of Corruption.

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Plus a irrelevant assertion about the quality of her small game, since all that should create or affect is simply people trying it out or not playing such a small indie and free game. - and therefore should not be used as somehow being a part of the argument here.

You entirely missed the point of that entire post, It was not that her game sucks because Hah i hate zoe quinn!!11! IT was that her game is obviously not fun, barely a game and the only reason it got the top slot in the billing was because the journalist agreed with her political message. (and probably had a friendly relationship with her, given they started dating a couple months and an article later)

It was a small condemnation of the journalists partisan corruption, Even if I'm entirely correct its not Quinns fault that Nathan did so.

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I am in the unenviable position of Being on the same side as people I despise,
You got that right. You are.

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The pathetic and sad truth of this is that she and that particular game about depression specifically, were targeted by a large amount specifically because it was a clear sign that someone is sensitive enough to get pushed even deeper into depression with the ultimate goal to bully someone so much they would kill themselves.[/b]
From my outside and very cold objective view this is a very real possibility currently. It could actually happen. If not her then someone else who was or will be affected.

Are you actually claiming that Gamergate was started because some internet guys figured that Zoe Quinn made a game about depression, thus was emotional and they should try and force her to commit suicide? Thats absurd.

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- the only things i dont agree with is offering a complete amnesty for everyone. (i dont think thats what the writer means anyway but just in case)
I do think FBI, Interpol and law in general should handle several individuals, just as they track and arrest various hackers and other such actually criminally dangerous people - for far lesser crimes often. I do think laws should be made that designate these kinds of online attacks and threats against actual people as criminal behavior, as that is all it is.
There is this false sense that since its only "online" its somehow not so serious or real still permeating all of this, - which is evidently not true. This very issue could be used as a "watershed" moment in this sense very easily. It should be.

Agreed about the law and the article. If the article was accomplished, Especially the second point, I would totally drop Gamergate, because my entire point will have been accomplished.


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I think there is a clear need for any moderate thinking people to start creating their own networks since its becoming very clear how things develop when there are no such networks and the people who go into extremes (and do have their own networks of negativity) practically take over.

This is routinely subverted by extremists on both sides of the political spectrum. Mass involvement with otherwise unrelated communities and already created groups is a common political tool to subvert them and use them as a ready made weapon. Its probably how many of the prominent game journalists entered the field to begin with (Seriously, All the games journalists are political progressives? I am a political progressive, let me tell you that it is not a majority view by any stretch of the imagination, let alone such a dominant one as to have an entire profession solely belonging to it)

 
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As i think that "false victimhood" should be recognized as an actual logical fallacy. Which will hopefully disable the extreme sides of using it so abundantly. It would be helpful to any moderate common sense people.

Thats just impossible, by its nature a claim of victimhood is an emotional appeal (and fallacy) of its own, The idea that because these people clearly wronged me you should agree with my position.
8  Other / General Discussion / Re: Zoe Quinn Corruption on: October 31, 2014, 09:18:22 pm
Darkthia, before I make any other comments, I want to say I generally think you're a cool, reasonable guy. So I, too, am not trying to tar and feather you here. Just keep that in mind. Wink

well thank you Gareth.  Smile



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This comment you made is factually false man.

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And finishes off with "And thats why you should not support Gamergate!" Its a logical trap to get people to disassociate with the word "Gamer", the entire thing was kicked off because they did just that in the "Gamers are dead" Articles.

GamerGate was a term coined by Baldwin over the allegations that Quinn slept with people for positive press. That is what kicked it off. That was the first mention of the term.

My comment was that the "Gamers are Dead" articles, and the slandering of the term, Was the rhetorical trick. Not the term Gamergate, Which was indeed invented by Baldwin.

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And I've seen a lot of this kind of sentiment from you in this thread dude :

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Sporky, in this very instance she is attempting to humiliate and belittle an entire segment of the populace, mean girl style, in order to get them to disassociate with a group that is causing waves for her.

So, honest question, is this *really* just about feeling insulted? At the core of it? Some gamers have hurt feelings?

Let's say we just give you the point and say her article was mean. What does that have to do with ethics? Corruption? So someone said something mean about some demographic? So what? Vince hurts feelings every time RPS interviews him.  lol

My argument is not that the Gamergate side is correct because they are being picked on and insulted, its that the anti-gamergate side has absolutely no ground to stand on when they try to claim the moral high ground in the argument as they are guilty of the exact same tactics almost to a T. Considering their entire argument (I'm unaware of anyone who's position is that there is no corruption or unethical journalism, but I may be wrong.) is based on this victimhood, I think its appropriate the bring it up.

https://twitter.com/samfbiddle/status/522771545287303169

http://38.media.tumblr.com/dd3ca33bc5212a111c37ab55dedade5a/tumblr_neaqt1ghEP1tkhroeo1_1280.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0RGxEvCYAAh3xY.jpg

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If it's about ethics, why does "Leigh was mean" come up so often? Why does it keep getting brought up in these conversations? Because the way it seems, it comes across like that kind of sentiment lies closer to the heart of the matter than "journalistic ethics".

If the issue was simply that some person was insulting towards my personal hobby not only would I not be here talking about it, I probably wouldn't even have heard of it. I am speaking on it entirely because the entire argument runs "they are bullying harassers, that's why you should support us." Its plain hypocrisy, I don't care that they are using strong language or being coarse and insulting, I DO care that they are screaming harassment from the rooftops while engaging in the same.

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Why is there no mention of the Shadows of Mordor/Youtuber genuine corruption in this thread (unless I missed it, I was scanning), but plenty of comments about journalists hurting their fans' feelings?

Mostly (at least from my end) Because I am assuming that no one here disbelieves and needs convincing that there is enormous corruption in the games industry, both from journalists, developers (less common) and the Corporations.

Now, I have spoken about the political blackballing* that goes on in the industry and the fact that many of the higher placed (yes, unfortunately many of them are from Gawker) journalists essentially using their power as a platform to create a revolving door of nepotism at length, including linking to Ben Kuchera and his ridiculous review of Tropico 5 (TL;DR It is horrible because it makes light of 3rd world dictators).

Now, I am familiar with the Shadow of Mordor corruption (totally unnecessary BTW, its a great game that I have logged upwards of 15 hours on), I just haven't spoken about it specifically because it kinda gets lost in the myriad of petty corruption and its not directly a matter of journalism corruption as its corporate PR groups who bribed a bunch of YouTube reviewers who I don't consider journalists or hold to the same standard of ethics.

Now that's certainly a position that can be debated and I would even be amenable to changing my mind on it, but I haven't refrained from mentioning it from the position that I don't actually care about the topic, but from the position that I don't believe anyone here needs any more proof that giant multinational corporations are corrupt assholes.


*I am lumping that into the field of corruption and violations of ethics when I use the term. 

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Personally, I'm willing to cut some slack to a woman who, along with her friends and colleagues, had been harassed for weeks with the vilest of threats, worked up a head of steam and stood up and vented her spleen. I don't have to agree with her, but are these two things equal? Weeks of threats vs the written equivalent of a raised middle finger at the harassers? Fuck no.

I'm mainly so hard on these people because I don't believe that their actions are really all that altruistic. Are there legitimate people angry and scared of Harassment? Yeah, I imagine there is. But I think the reason that the Gawker dudes, Leigh Alexander and a lot of the other industry leaders are so riled up about it is because:
1) They have a network of friendships, love interests and financial ties to each other that was threatened.
2) They look back at that clusterfuck of networks and see themselves. They know they are guilty of the political blackballing, the ethics violations and all the other corruption and are lashing out because they don't want to be the next one to be tarred and feathered for it.

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The most basic principle of ethical journalism is to try to keep a wall between advertising and editorial. Ie, to not let the ad sponsors (who pay the bills) influence the actual stuff you write about. That is the most obvious ethical danger in journalism, funded as it is by advertising, the greatest chance of corruption. That the money men will influence what you publish and how you say it.

Considering I Previously have only visited RPS for precisely that reason, I would say that they have failed as a whole. (side note: I think RPS is not actually engaged in corruption, despite writing anti gamergate articles. Closing the comments section of them and deleting forum posts is another issue entirely.)

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is instead thoroughly embroiled in a war on Gawker media (owner of some sites that published a couple of articles that protrayed GG negatively), trying to force various journalistic sites to change their editorial policies by applying pressure on advertisers.

They are probably the most visibly unashamed proponents of the previous political corruption and were also involved in the Patreon Abuse, for which BTW, Gamergate criticism in entirely responsible for ending on several sites including the Gawker ones.

This almost personal vendetta between both sides is probably not helped by the fact that some of the most outlandish things and obvious issues can be linked to Gawker Employees (off the top of my head, The Sam Biddle quote and Kuchera's Actions in the private Google Group for instance)

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In other words, they're trying to break the ethical wall between the two sides of the business of journalism down.

If they succeed, they will have achieved the exact opposite of their stated goal, they will have broken down the ethical barrier, or proven it to not exist in the first place in sites that acquiesces to that pressure easily.

I think its more the latter than the former and I get where your coming from, But The fact is that these people ARE massively corrupt and ARE swayed by the companies advertising. The Gaming public directly hurting the bottom line of sites that do so is really not only the most effective tactic I can think of, its really the only effective tactic I can think of.

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This tactic will literally only work on sites willing to compromise their editorial principles for advertising revenue. Ie, the corruption they're supposedly fighting.

The goal is as I imagine it to get those journalists fired and the Editorial practices of the website changed. I don't see how you think this tactic won't accomplish it? (Assuming its successful of course.)

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A private mailing list between professionals in an industry isn't it.

It is when its used to push a narrative by getting all the industry voices to support a cause and socially and professionally shun those who do not comply. In fact, this exact situation occurred in traditional media that resulted in firings and formal apologies when discovered.

 
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Well known journos urging each other not to add fuel to the fires of a vicious harassment campaign, which threatened to ruin lives and end careers, by legitimizing the baseless claims* of that campaign using their wide-reaching media platforms isn't it.

Come on man, Do you really believe those journalists were not doing that primarily because they happen to be personal friends with Zoe? They tried to literally "Control the Narrative" by getting everyone to use their influence to, not ignore it and not give it airtime, but to write news critical of the story, which I might add many journalists in the group right said conflicted with ethical standards and refused to do so. (Erik Kain wrote an excellent review of the document, I disagree with him in a few places but I believe he is at least honest about it).

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Using the common "X is dead" rhetorical writing device (Punk's not dead, y'all) in an article to muse how a particular consumer identity is dying or at least becoming less relevant isn't it, even if you disagree or feel insulted.

Using copy/paste talking points across an entire industry to try and douse the flames of an internal corruption scandal certainly is. The fact that it was entirely insulting and provoked an emotional reaction from their own viewer base is not the issue I have with it.

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Regarding Quinn let me set the record straight, When I wrote up this topic I was not familiar with the Term Gamergate and struggled to think of a title to describe it and settled on the current one because it was the only thing I could think of that accurately described it.

Since then my views on the woman and the corruption surrounding her has changed considerably, and in hindsight should not have included her so prominently and certainly not with the accusation I did.

That said, I don't believe the accusations are proven incorrect, they just are not proven to be correct. I think the gamjam article was probably not done solely to give Quinn publicity, though I suspect that likely played a part in the decision (especially in the framing of the people involved, with her in front. But I'm getting a little off topic and nitpicky). The Kotaku article dismissing the claims is explicitly leaving out information which looks bad, which is suspect.

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On March 31, Nathan published the only Kotaku article he's written involving Zoe Quinn.....Nathan never reviewed Zoe Quinn's game Depression Quest, let alone gave it a favorable review

This is not inaccurate, but its not the whole truth either. He also wrote an article a few months before specifically on Depression Quest at RPS* http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/08/admission-quest-valve-greenlights-50-more-games/#more-183169 Giving it a spotlight. They acknowledge the romantic relationship started a little after the Kotaku article.

Now, is that lock iron proof of sex for Coverage? No. But it does raise concerns and the question of "Could they have been romantically involved earlier than they claim" is, I think a valid one. Combined with the suspicions regarding Kotaku's Judicious use of editing, It makes the question all the more valid to be asked.
 
*Now, I think that is an example of them using their position as a platform for their political agenda. Seriously, No one wants to play depression quest. Its a terrible game and the reason it was showed was because he agrees with the political message. This example is entire minor though and I wouldn't even mention it otherwise.

Now, The rest of the stuff she is accused of is bullshit as your link mentions, except TFYC one, (I can't for the life of me find where the proof is that she was not involved, But i can't imagine its just not there and I must just be missing it, I would appreciate it if someone could point it out for me.) which Apparently will be settled in court so I remain Neutral on that front until it is.

When I first posted the thread that information was not known to me and in hindsight, i should not have assumed it to be accurate and for which I apologize.


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Sporky, in this very instance she is attempting to humiliate and belittle an entire segment of the populace, mean girl style, in order to get them to disassociate with a group that is causing waves for her.

That emotion, right there : "The feminists have been mean to us."

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They see that resentment and hurt feeling at the very core of the movement, and they're leveraging it for all the money and attention it's worth. That's why Stormfront has joined in too, it's not a random coincidence. They see the same group being targetted by GG as they themselves target - progressive activists. They see a weapon.

I am in the unenviable position of Being on the same side as people I despise, Half because of my Ideals regarding freedom of speech, expression and journalist ethics. I think your correct, they are targeting them because of partisan rivalries. The fact that games journalism is embroiled in partisan rivalries is kinda my point though. While vile and distasteful people and my own political opponents, they are accurate in that they have been blackballed for their political beliefs which I find totally unacceptable. I wouldn't find it acceptable if Right Wingers were doing the exact same thing to Left Wingers and I don't Find it acceptable when My own In Group happens to benefit from the Nepotism.

"I might not agree with what you have to say but I will defend to the death your right to say it." -Voltaire.

I think many people of my own persuasion are uncritical because it happens to be Their group benefiting while they would cry foul to the ends of the earth if the situation was reversed.
9  Other / General Discussion / Re: Zoe Quinn Corruption on: October 31, 2014, 06:08:25 pm
(for involving himself in an online movement that has a reputation for harassment, I'm assuming)

Its my impression that when this kind of thing happens, The Doxxers harass the victims place of employment and make it very clear that they are doing so until the victim is fired, which inevitably happens as they don't want to put up with that nonsense. I might be wrong about this though.
10  Other / General Discussion / Re: Zoe Quinn Corruption on: October 30, 2014, 05:15:23 pm
Agreed - it's absolutely ridiculous to paint Gamergate with Stormfront solely because the latter supports the former.

It's not ridiculous, however, to ask why a noxious bunch of neo-Nazi thugs - a longtime hate group - feels comfortable with Gamergate as a nationally-prominent set of social practices. I'll go out on a limb and posit that this probably wouldn't be happening if Gamergate's most prominent actions weren't doxxing and death/rape threats against women, and liberals more generally, with no nationally-prominent leaders or community voices united against those behaviors. We can probably all agree that we should be conducting our social politics in such a manner, and employing such tactics, that pro-violence neo-Nazi groups would not feel comfortable associating with our causes. (Yes, I'm fully aware of the problem referring to a unitary "Gamergate"; that's why I refer to "social practices" rather than "movement" or w/e. I'm sure Stormfront is aware of this, too, and totally untroubled by it.)

That's not quite a fair representation of Stormfront and their motivations, Those people are primarily two things, 1) Racist and 2) Right Wingers. Gamergate does not have a prominent race component to it so that motivations if irrelevant, But its does have the motivation that the People currently accused of political shenanigans are all Left Wingers. I don't think sexism can be used to reliably describe Stormfronters as that's simply not the basis of the website. Its much more likely that Stormfronters are massively disproportionately affected by the political shenanigans and are of an political activist sort to begin with.

It also comes into it with the idea that if harassment wasn't happening then stormfronters wouldn't be interested. that might be true in the reverse, but a pleasant environment is not going to scare off Extreme right wingers even if they are otherwise comfortable operating in a hostile one.

Its still a blatant smear at the end of the day.

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It's also fair game when it goes the other way, as when you, and Gamergate more generally, uncritically leaned on Breitbart coverage

I did no such thing, I read and linked to Milo's Report as it was the only actual report available (And its really hard to find a journalist without ideological bias to begin with. I get my news almost solely from The Young Turks, but they have been relatively silent on the issue and still possess the same type of bias anyhow.), I also Read Erik Kain's analysis of the details and went into it to research myself. For the record, I think I'm halfway between Erik and Milo as to the intentions of the gamejournopros group. There are serious issues with some of the higher placed Journalists, particularly Ben Kuchera, but I was pleasantly surprised to see some of the other Journalists stand on firm ethical ground.

I use it as a source, not gospel. 

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I couldn't agree more about the way that online tools are currently structured, and how they've added up to some massive affordances for the worst sorts of behavior we've seen, from individuals of all ideological bents. Incidentally, here's some interesting, compendious analysis by Andy Baio of a single dataset of Gamergate actions on Twitter:
https://medium.com/message/72-hours-of-gamergate-e00513f7cf5d

I can't actually see anything worth commenting on with that article, But he makes an addendum about how he had to take off a lot of info due to legal reasons, so maybe I'm not getting what you originally read.


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I'm not framing shit. I'm trying to explain to you how you're perceived by the neutral world beyond #Gamergate. What we're talking about is rhetoric, the science of putting your desires and ideas forward in a sensible way to get what you want.

That would be Framing the argument in a way to get people to agree with you. I'm not hostile to the idea and I see where your coming from, But claiming that both sides will never be able to communicate and then going on to insult and ridicule the opposing side is kinda the reason why.

 
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What the #Gamergate community is doing is reactionary. If someone points to something you're doing wrong and your reply is "They're doing it too!"

The argument is that the Anti's are trying to claim the moral high ground and victimhood by way of being harassed. Pointing out that they have no such moral high ground as their actions are more or less identical is perfectly reasonable, IMO.



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You know what, I'm calling bullshit on this. I don't recall Adam Baldwin fleeing his home in the face of death threats

Do you remember how the Co-Creator of #notyourshield was Doxxed and Fired from his job?

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or Milo Yiannopolous canceling a public appearance when threatened with a shooting spree

Or maybe Milo being Sent a Filled needle in the mail as a threat?

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or Internet Aristocrat being harassed into deleting his YouTube channel.

Perhaps Thunderfoot's Twitter being taken down amid false flagging?
11  Other / General Discussion / Re: Zoe Quinn Corruption on: October 30, 2014, 03:47:34 am
but there isn't any debate or dialogue and I'm reasonably certain there won't ever be any

There certainly wont be when you insist on Slanderous framing and casual insults to describe the opposing side.

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#Gamergate and the anti-harassment community

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a bunch of squalling, nitpicking whiners.

To be fair to you, This is actually the least malicious framing/names I've seen even in our own little community.
12  Other / General Discussion / Re: Zoe Quinn Corruption on: October 30, 2014, 03:43:52 am
Keep in mind that Stormfront, A neo-nazi website, just came out in support of Gamergate. That alone should tell you everything you need to know.

Stalin was a vocal Supporter of Anti-Racism and Feminism, along with the Rest of the USSR. I hope I don't have to explain how ridiculous this point is.

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To me, "Social Justice Warrior" has always meant "pearl-clutching knee-jerk reactionary slacktivist who thinks reblogging that Tumblr post will end racism forever" but the Gamergate people are apparently applying it to anyone who disagrees with them.

I use it to describe people obsessed with Tolerance and Equality to a point that borders on the unreasonable (which is different than reasonable support, let me make that clear) or holds extreme points of view regarding it.
13  Other / General Discussion / Re: Another step towards a global Caliphate on: October 25, 2014, 12:22:40 pm
well... of course i didnt mean that. i tried to make some sort of black humor joke about a very long terrible situation.

You misunderstood me, I meant my comment in the sense that i understand it was a joke and i found it hilarious.

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But it also tells a simple truth that destroying a building or two, no matter how many people were in them isnt the smartest thing you can do to a world super power like US still is.

It looks like those people never actually considered what will happen afterwards.
Like they lived in a fantasy with some action movie ending, like there wont be anything else after that. Just the big boom and then... what?
 there are some similar idiots thinking about how it would be awesome to get any kind of nuke in US...
Imagine what the reaction to that would be.

You assuming these people were/are rational actors on the world stage. They live in a reality bubble where after going boom, they go to paradise and are celebrated for their martyrdom by, literally, God.

Its not a conscious, rational, political idea they have. They are not Nazi's who have a political theory we just disagree with. These people are trying to fulfill prophecy by their actions.
14  Other / General Discussion / Re: Another step towards a global Caliphate on: October 23, 2014, 11:30:30 am
LMAO

EA Games, Probably responsible for 9/11.

This should be a meme.
15  RPG / RPG Discussion / Re: RPG sales on: October 21, 2014, 12:27:32 pm
I'd have to recommend the game, Its quite fun actually.

The only bad point is the ending, You don't get to see the actual effects of your actions.
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