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RPG => Colony Ship: A Post-Earth Role Playing Game => Topic started by: ioci on January 27, 2019, 08:10:03 am



Title: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: ioci on January 27, 2019, 08:10:03 am
About Combat Skills:
In short, I'm worried that if a hybrid combatant build would be useless in the late game.
In AOD and Wasteland 2 I always end up with 1 single Combat Skill during the playthrough, otherwise, the hit chance will be too low to worth the action points it costs. Knowing that CSG will have a learn-by-using mechanic, does it mean that if I don't stick with one weapon type would lead to a lot of miss later in the game progress?  (In AOD, I would level up some secondary weapon skill but it was because it gives a few points to my main, and I still use the main one always)
Or maybe the combat skill gaining won't give a fixed hit chance bonus but rather some side effect? I'm imagining less AP cost for reloading, unlock special tactical options or lower the THC penalty/AP cost on burst.


About Equipment Slots:
I enjoy a lot how AOD presents the belt slot as you can place a secondary weapon on it(although I only put a dagger for the dialog CS kill and the slot serves merely like a hotkey for consumable items which was not very neat).
I understand that the AOD Equipment Slot been left behind was because it didn't perform that well, but the new one looks a little bit lack of style. It would be nice if I could still put the sidearm in the belt even it would occupy more than 1 space.

Cheers!


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Vince on January 27, 2019, 10:52:27 am
About Combat Skills:
In short, I'm worried that if a hybrid combatant build would be useless in the late game.
In AOD and Wasteland 2 I always end up with 1 single Combat Skill during the playthrough, otherwise, the hit chance will be too low to worth the action points it costs. Knowing that CSG will have a learn-by-using mechanic, does it mean that if I don't stick with one weapon type would lead to a lot of miss later in the game progress?  (In AOD, I would level up some secondary weapon skill but it was because it gives a few points to my main, and I still use the main one always)
Or maybe the combat skill gaining won't give a fixed hit chance bonus but rather some side effect? I'm imagining less AP cost for reloading, unlock special tactical options or lower the THC penalty/AP cost on burst.
At the moment, each weapon skill rank increases THC by 10%. Passive bonuses are gained via feats, implants, and weapon properties, and we're hesitant to add them to skill ranks too.

You will be expected and encouraged to use different weapon types, if for no other reason than ammo being limited. From the front page:

"Like a pirate who carried two loaded flintlocks and a cutlass, your typical adventurer might have an energy pistol charged to fire a shot or two on special occasions, a .45 revolver, an SMG with two full magazines to get you out of tight spots fast, and an axe, for when things get really dicey."

Quote
I enjoy a lot how AOD presents the belt slot as you can place a secondary weapon on it(although I only put a dagger for the dialog CS kill and the slot serves merely like a hotkey for consumable items which was not very neat).

I understand that the AOD Equipment Slot been left behind was because it didn't perform that well, but the new one looks a little bit lack of style. It would be nice if I could still put the sidearm in the belt even it would occupy more than 1 space.
1) Style: everything you see on the last batch of screens is work in progress. At the moment we're working on the functionality rather than aesthetics. The GUI is far from done.
2) Belt slots - there are 4 belt slots that show on the main screen once you put something there. At the moment they are limited to grenades and gadgets.



Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Fed on January 29, 2019, 07:17:09 am
"Like a pirate who carried two loaded flintlocks and a cutlass, your typical adventurer might have an energy pistol charged to fire a shot or two on special occasions, a .45 revolver, an SMG with two full magazines to get you out of tight spots fast, and an axe, for when things get really dicey."
Or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywcKkb5buJI

)


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: ioci on February 06, 2019, 10:01:42 am
Thanks for the reply, Vince and Fed. Guess better wait until the early access to find out.  :salute:


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Oscar on February 10, 2019, 07:30:17 pm
We've been testing the fights non-stop these past weeks, and we definitely use different weapon types. The game supports this in several ways:

- Base THC is higher than in AoD, as evasion progress is slower than attack.
- The graze range allows weapons to be useful even with low levels, especially with the attacks that increase it.
- Increasing weapon levels is quite fast in the first levels.

In general, I go with a rifle, pistol, melee set-up.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: ioci on February 14, 2019, 08:03:38 am
Gracias Oscar! :salute:

- Base THC is higher than in AoD, as evasion progress is slower than attack.
- The graze range allows weapons to be useful even with low levels, especially with the attacks that increase it.
Great to know! A few questions come in mind:
1) does distance affects a lot THC or graze chance?
2) is graze like the fast attack in AoD or it's possible to happen with any attacks?

- Increasing weapon levels is quite fast in the first levels.
This is quite immersive! I have to praise it! Easy to learn how to pull the trigger but hard to master. With the traditional SP mechanic, I was always mean with the SPs because they are bonded with levels and at the high level the SPs just became rarer as the time required for level up was significantly longer. I really look forward to this new mechanic, it seems to make the side skills way more accessible!

In general, I go with a rifle, pistol, melee set-up.
Suddenly it reminds me of that good old Counter-Strike, hahaha


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Oscar on February 14, 2019, 01:05:46 pm
1) If the enemy is inside your weapon range, there's no penalty. Then it drops 5% per tile, which makes a big difference since the effective range of pistols is around 7 while long range rifles is around 12, so that's a 25% penalty to shoot a guy that's far away. Multi-barrel weapons is even shorter.

2) Base graze is 10%, but it's modified by attack type, weapons and perks. So a snap shot or a shotgun have a bigger range, and an aimed attack might limit it to 5% max.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Wizard1200 on February 14, 2019, 04:32:55 pm
1) If the enemy is inside your weapon range, there's no penalty. Then it drops 5% per tile, which makes a big difference since the effective range of pistols is around 7 while long range rifles is around 12, so that's a 25% penalty to shoot a guy that's far away. Multi-barrel weapons is even shorter.

I think that a difference of 5 tiles between a short range weapon and a long range weapon is a bit too low. Long range rifles should have a weapon range of around 14 in my opinion.

Are attack of opportunities in the game? I ask, because firing a ranged weapon at a target in melee range should provoke an attack of opportunity in my opinion.

Does moving one tile cost 1 AP or 2 AP?


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Oscar on February 14, 2019, 07:34:05 pm
They go from 10 to 14 currently. Moving costs 1AP right now.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: ioci on February 14, 2019, 07:35:45 pm
1) If the enemy is inside your weapon range, there's no penalty. Then it drops 5% per tile, which makes a big difference since the effective range of pistols is around 7 while long range rifles is around 12, so that's a 25% penalty to shoot a guy that's far away. Multi-barrel weapons is even shorter.

2) Base graze is 10%, but it's modified by attack type, weapons and perks. So a snap shot or a shotgun have a bigger range, and an aimed attack might limit it to 5% max.

Thanks! You have just clear my doubts. I'm going to try a shotgun & axe build with super bunky mega heavy armor when the game is out, haha!


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Pladio on February 15, 2019, 09:08:25 am
1) If the enemy is inside your weapon range, there's no penalty. Then it drops 5% per tile, which makes a big difference since the effective range of pistols is around 7 while long range rifles is around 12, so that's a 25% penalty to shoot a guy that's far away. Multi-barrel weapons is even shorter.

2) Base graze is 10%, but it's modified by attack type, weapons and perks. So a snap shot or a shotgun have a bigger range, and an aimed attack might limit it to 5% max.

Do you have short range penalties ? i,e, trying to shoot through a scoped rifle within 2m is more difficult than from 20m.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Vince on February 15, 2019, 11:37:13 am
Are attack of opportunities in the game? I ask, because firing a ranged weapon at a target in melee range should provoke an attack of opportunity in my opinion.
Not at the moment (still debating point-blank shooting internally based on playtesting). Right now you can't use long guns point blank at all. Smaller guns - snap shots only.

Do you have short range penalties ? i,e, trying to shoot through a scoped rifle within 2m is more difficult than from 20m.
Not at the moment. I see such penalties and bonuses as fine-tuning so we'll wait until the beta feedback start pouring in.



Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Wizard1200 on February 15, 2019, 03:54:22 pm
They go from 10 to 14 currently. Moving costs 1AP right now.

Perhaps 12 to 16 would be better, because with a low movement cost it is very easy to change the weapon range.

Not at the moment (still debating point-blank shooting internally based on playtesting). Right now you can't use long guns point blank at all. Smaller guns - snap shots only.

Attack of opportunities or a point-blank penalty (THC -10% (pistol), THC -20% (shotgun and smg) and THC -30% (scoped rifle and cannon)) would be a less rigid system.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Vince on February 15, 2019, 07:41:15 pm
Not at the moment (still debating point-blank shooting internally based on playtesting). Right now you can't use long guns point blank at all. Smaller guns - snap shots only.

Attack of opportunities or a point-blank penalty (THC -10% (pistol), THC -20% (shotgun and smg) and THC -30% (scoped rifle and cannon)) would be a less rigid system.
One of the issues is that using certain shooting stances associated with aimed attacks or pointing a rifle or any big gun at someone standing next to you will cause the barrel to go right through them. Basically, imagine someone standing close enough to punch you. Would there be enough room for you to pull out a rifle and aim (meaning not even taking your time but raising the barrel and moving it forward)?


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Wizard1200 on February 16, 2019, 02:42:05 am
One of the issues is that using certain shooting stances associated with aimed attacks or pointing a rifle or any big gun at someone standing next to you will cause the barrel to go right through them. Basically, imagine someone standing close enough to punch you. Would there be enough room for you to pull out a rifle and aim (meaning not even taking your time but raising the barrel and moving it forward)?

The last part of your post is the reason why i think attack of opportunities are the best solution, but if such a mechanic causes clipping issues it is not worth the trouble in my opinion. Your current solution is in that case probably the best option.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Wizard1200 on February 16, 2019, 12:02:00 pm
Another solution would be an engagement system similar to AoD:

- If a character hits another character with a melee attack both characters are engaged in melee.
- An engaged character can not move.
- An engaged character can perform only melee attacks or snap shots with pistols.
- An engaged character can disengage with a melee attack (fist skill, 4 AP, no damage, 'strength': 20-30 - constitution of the target, pushes the target one tile back per 10 points of 'strength').


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: old_school_gamer on March 24, 2019, 12:11:09 am
Basically, imagine someone standing close enough to punch you. Would there be enough room for you to pull out a rifle and aim (meaning not even taking your time but raising the barrel and moving it forward)?

Certainly not but if I may play devil's advocate, how many people would charge a hundred yards towards someone firing at them with an assault rifle? If we try to simulate reality or at least human intuition then it's not particularly intuitive that any creature concerned about its own life and safety would come charging at someone wielding a firearm looking at them and firing at them to get close enough to be within punching range. It's like unless the person sneaked up on me from behind, a person wielding a ranged weapon should rarely ever find themselves in punching distance with anyone else.

I actually don't care about such realism at all, so I like opportunity attacks as a way to punish ranged characters from just putting 10 points in DEX or some other attributes/traits that gives them a boatload of AP, preventing them from being able to cheese through the game by kiting. But on the flip side I feel like the system in AoD with opportunity attacks didn't reward ranged characters enough, since I feel like it forces them to invest a bit in melee regardless since their ranged attacks are never lethal enough, and the melee AI tends to just charge at them, disregarding the fact that they're being fired upon, until they get within punching distance... at which point I accept clipping issues and still want to fire at them if my character is entirely invested at ranged and not melee.

Something tricky to me is that I can recall few games that ever made ranged builds particularly interesting unless it came at a great cost to melee. Usually if ranged was extremely interesting, that means it was as fatal as guns or crossbows or longbows or even throwing weapons in real life... in which case anyone charging against someone wielding a firearm with only a knife is generally doomed. Meanwhile if that knife became more interesting absent a stealth mechanic, then ranged becomes less interesting, because the person wielding the knife would now be able to survive three headshots in a row and be turned into a bullet sponge in order to charge up to punching range and stab the ranged character to death. I can't really recall many games that balanced that issue very well.

Even KOTOR made such an earnest attempt, trying to create energy shield-based lore around why melee might be as good as ranged... except in that one melee was far superior to range if you specialized in it -- an expert wielding a light saber would demolish an expert at energy pistols. An expert in ranged in that one would only get a free shot or two before finding themselves in an melee situation, and that one shot or two generally wasn't anywhere near as lethal as it should be if they weren't expected to nearly rival the melee skills of the enemy who managed to charge at them to get to punching range. To make range truly viable in that one, it would require that a single shot that lands is absolutely fatal to the one receiving it. Otherwise any investment in range skills is just detracting from what's important -- melee skills in close-combat engagements.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: ioci on March 24, 2019, 06:44:39 am
Quote
Right now you can't use long guns point blank at all. Smaller guns - snap shots only.
If reload is forbidden in point blank situation, then this mechanic would be both the most immersive and fun solution even without Attack of Opportunity.

The problem with enabling AoO when shooting in point blank situation is, if pulling a trigger is already an opportunity significant enough, then why don't give free Overwatch for range guys when they spot a shock charger is running towards them?

Btw, it would be nice if melee attack could deliver a special accuracy penalty to its range opponent(a penalty that can be neutralized by high lvl range skill/feat).



Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Vince on March 24, 2019, 11:36:27 am
Basically, imagine someone standing close enough to punch you. Would there be enough room for you to pull out a rifle and aim (meaning not even taking your time but raising the barrel and moving it forward)?

Certainly not but if I may play devil's advocate, how many people would charge a hundred yards towards someone firing at them with an assault rifle?
Most infantry troopers in WW1 and WW2? Bayonet charges and such.

Anyway, the idea is to keep ammo limited and use melee weapons as backup, while also providing those who wish to specialize in melee with tools to do so (smoke grenades, gadgets, and feats).


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Wrath of Dagon on March 24, 2019, 02:49:08 pm
What does ammo limited really mean though? Either you run out of ammo or you don't. Either you have to use melee in every fight or you never develop the melee skill.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Vince on March 24, 2019, 02:56:50 pm
It means that the goal is to keep the ammo limited to give you a reason to use backup weapons. Naturally, it's subject to many factors: how good the player is at scavenging, how much loot he has to trade, what kind of weapons the player favors (i.e. 9mm or .45), attack types, etc. Clearly, someone who prefers SMGs will run out of ammo much faster than someone who prefers single shot weapons.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Wrath of Dagon on March 24, 2019, 04:21:43 pm
Thanks, so that sounds like normal ammo management you have to do in most games, if you're low in one type switch to another or try to buy some more.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Wizard1200 on March 24, 2019, 05:18:24 pm
It means that the goal is to keep the ammo limited to give you a reason to use backup weapons. Naturally, it's subject to many factors: how good the player is at scavenging, how much loot he has to trade, what kind of weapons the player favors (i.e. 9mm or .45), attack types, etc. Clearly, someone who prefers SMGs will run out of ammo much faster than someone who prefers single shot weapons.

I think that it is very difficult to balance items only around the availability or the amount of required money, because as soon as you have the item (ammo in Fallout 1 and 2 for example) the game could be much easier.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Vince on March 24, 2019, 06:15:02 pm
Thanks, so that sounds like normal ammo management you have to do in most games, if you're low in one type switch to another or try to buy some more.
Pretty much. The key factor is balance: how easy it is to hoard ammo to switch from one type to another without inconveniencing yourself in any way, how easy it is to buy more, etc. In Fallout, for example, ammo was never an issue, which went against the setting. In Wasteland 2 running out of ammo was possible and several times I had to use backup weapons or give all ammo of certain type to one party member but overall it's not a game where ammo was scarce either.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: old_school_gamer on March 25, 2019, 02:59:21 am
Thanks, so that sounds like normal ammo management you have to do in most games, if you're low in one type switch to another or try to buy some more.
Pretty much. The key factor is balance: how easy it is to hoard ammo to switch from one type to another without inconveniencing yourself in any way, how easy it is to buy more, etc. In Fallout, for example, ammo was never an issue, which went against the setting. In Wasteland 2 running out of ammo was possible and several times I had to use backup weapons or give all ammo of certain type to one party member but overall it's not a game where ammo was scarce either.

Does CSG allow grinding in any form? This might seem like such a weird question but I like the option to grind (like a never-ending source of gaining some resource), even if I don't enjoy it, because just having the option does something to me psychologically that tends to help even if I never use the option.

The problem for someone like me is absent the option in a game with very limited consumable items (ammo included), what tends to happen is that I end up almost never using them in a first playthrough unless I desperately need to, and instead tend to hoard like crazy. The psychology is like, "Okay, this battle is challenging, but I don't want to use this potion/bomb/ammo even though it'd really help because the next battle might be even more challenging and I might need it even more there." Then the next battle comes and I end up repeating until I've beaten the entire game with a massive stash of items I couldn't enjoy and use because I kept saving them for a rainy day that never came. :D Once I beat the game one time though, then I start to know what to expect on subsequent playthroughs and start to use those items more liberally, but without having any viable ways to replenish them if they're very finite and limited throughout the entire game, that first playthrough tends to be rather miserable while I keep saving for some unknown future until the game has come to an end.

It's mainly an issue for me with not knowing what the future holds, when I'll get more of said item, and so I end up becoming so frugal, and I generally like being forced to be frugal, except I've become so frugal that I'm not using these things at all on the first playthrough. Instead of making difficult choices I end up making no choices and get paralyzed that way. The difficulty for me comes from not knowing how precious and valuable something is at any given moment, so I tend to save it indefinitely and err on the side of thinking it's incredibly precious and should be used so sparingly that I never use it at all. Whereas in a game where I could grind for such items, no matter how difficult they are to come by that way, that at least makes me realize they aren't that precious, and so even without grinding I start using those items more readily. In the real world I don't have this issue since I can always grind (work for a paycheck) and there's always gun shops selling ammo even if it's expensive -- at no point does it become completely exhausted and impossible to obtain any more.

When time is finite that also sometimes helps, like if I have 60 in-game days to beat a game, then I know how much time I have left until the game comes to an end and use that to help me better understand the relative value of an item and how precious it is and how frequently I can viably use it based on how much of it I'm acquiring on average in a given game day. I generally don't like it when games have a limited time mechanic of this sort, but when they offer it, it does generally help me to use those items more liberally. I brought that up mainly because the main issue for me is maybe not having enough of a way to measure the relative worth of a consumable to know how frequently I can and should be consuming it.

Meanwhile even though grinding isn't very entertaining on its own, just a game that offers that ability to reaccumulate a depleted resource encourages me to use it more actively, since I know I'll never find myself in an impassable dead end even if I use them liberally.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Vince on March 25, 2019, 06:49:05 am
Does CSG allow grinding in any form?
No filler combat, no random or reswpawning enemies, if that's what you're asking. Handcrafted content only.

Quote
The problem for someone like me is absent the option in a game with very limited consumable items (ammo included), what tends to happen is that I end up almost never using them in a first playthrough unless I desperately need to, and instead tend to hoard like crazy.
I had many chests filled with potions and scrolls in BG2, enough to open up my own store and retire from all that adventuring, so I know what you mean. However, the reason I was able to save 95% of all potions and scrolls is that I didn't really need them and that's what it comes to.

Did you play Dungeon Rats by any chance? If you did, I'm pretty sure you used the consumables (food and alchemy) because the game was hard and you had no other choice. Same here. There are no filler fights like I said, so every time you fight, you either use everything you have or you die. Sure, an experienced player might save more just like an experienced player might need a bit less healing in Dungeon Rats but hoarding ammo won't be a viable option unless you play a solo melee fighter.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: old_school_gamer on March 25, 2019, 01:43:06 pm
Did you play Dungeon Rats by any chance? If you did, I'm pretty sure you used the consumables (food and alchemy) because the game was hard and you had no other choice. Same here. There are no filler fights like I said, so every time you fight, you either use everything you have or you die. Sure, an experienced player might save more just like an experienced player might need a bit less healing in Dungeon Rats but hoarding ammo won't be a viable option unless you play a solo melee fighter.

That difficulty might help a lot. I tried Dungeon Rats though I still had a little bit of the item hoarding problem, but definitely the difficulty made me start using more bombs and neurostimulants and whetstones and such early on because I felt like there was no way I was going to proceed otherwise. Definitely if the game leaves me feeling like I have little choice rather frequently, the item hoarding issue is substantially mitigated.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: Sparacul on April 01, 2019, 12:38:29 pm
In Wasteland 2
Did not last though. I was very amused and intrigued by how rare and expensive ammo was at the beginning of the game, but I found that past early game it was too easy to acquire more. By mid game, it was the same abundant bullshit as in every other game and I started to sell ammo. I had only one melee user in my squad and he was awful at it.


Title: Re: Some doubt about the Combat Skills and the Equipment Slots
Post by: ioci on April 04, 2019, 07:27:19 pm
In Wasteland 2
Did not last though. I was very amused and intrigued by how rare and expensive ammo was at the beginning of the game, but I found that past early game it was too easy to acquire more. By mid game, it was the same abundant bullshit as in every other game and I started to sell ammo. I had only one melee user in my squad and he was awful at it.

In WL2DC, if I remembered correctly, when I entered the second map, I started to sell ammo too, but those were weaker ammo only. And the ammo for better guns you find in that second map is still "rare" for quite a while.
The ammo issue from WL2 was that the early types of ammo were useless in the later chapter since the AP cost-effeciency limits your chance to overwhelm the enemy with the weaker types. I like Metro 2033's way more because the ammo there were actually the currency in that game so they won't lose their value later. The similar feature we can find in Path of Exile as well, that game even makes the identification scroll somehow valuable which is something I could never had imagined in Diablo.