Iron Tower Studio Forums

RPG => The Age of Decadence => Topic started by: Vince on August 21, 2008, 08:08:28 pm



Title: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 21, 2008, 08:08:28 pm
Welcome to "The Lucky Shot" store! If you see anything you like, just ask me. Ah, what the hell, I've got time, so I'll tell you anyway.

     (http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/2913/xbowscompleteem2.png) (http://imageshack.us)

This little guy here is a nothing but a toy. Can't shoot straight no matter what you do with it and has no power, but I suppose you can't miss if you shove it in someone's face, can you? You can hold it with one hand and I don't think I have to tell you what that means.

Now this here is a real crossbow. As standard as they come. Good, accurate, reliable. That's my number one choice. I fought two wars with it and I have nothing but good things to say about it. However, if you want something bigger and better, try its cousin over here. The difference? Take a look at that bow. That's a big motherfucker. It will take you longer to bend that bow for another shot, but it will punch a clean hole through any armor.

This? This here is our latest import. All the way from ... goddammit ... always forget the name of that shithole. Anyway, my point is, it's exotic shit. Will cost you triple if you've got the coin. This strange-looking bird has two bows. They are vertical, of course, otherwise, how the hell would you load the second bow? You know what that means? You can shoot twice without reloading. Sweet little deal, eh?

And the last one is what we call a repeating crossbow in this business. See this box on top? Load it up with ten bolts, aim, and fire. No, it's not fully automatic, although I've heard things you aint gonna believe... So, you still have to reload it after each shot, but it will only take a heartbeat or two. Obviously, it aint nearly as powerful as the heavy crossbow, but if speed is your thing, you can't go wrong with this one. If you've got the coin, that is.

     (http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/1064/astrolabetu6.png) (http://imageshack.us)


If you don't have enough coins I can accept interesting trades. Last week one of them funny hats even traded me a magic amulet for a nice repeater. Ostorlab or asterlab, he called it.  It speaks to the sun, so I don't have to explain you that it has all kinds of power. You know what the funny hat told me? "Neither sword nor arrow shall touch ye, Marcus!" That's what he told me, word for word. I figured a mighty artifact like that is worth at least a thousand coins. What do you say, stranger? You figure your life is worth a thousand coins? No?

     (http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/5493/scopeoz8.png) (http://imageshack.us)

How about this magic tube then? None of that speaking to the sun nonsense. You point it at anything and it will instantly appear in this crystal, as close as if you were standing next to it. Now that's real magic and don't even think about telling me otherwise. You can use it for anything, I suppose, but if you're real smart, you'll ask me to put it on one of those crossbows you were looking at earlier. You know why? Because Marcus Cornelius Arvina is a practical man! I have no interest in stars and moons, but I have a lot of interest in seeing a soon-to-be-a-dead-man up close and personal in that magic crystal. What do you say? Five hundred coins on account it being a one of a kind artifact and all?

     (http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1396/xbow1scopeui5.png) (http://imageshack.us)

So where are you heading to? Maadoran? It's a shithole. Want to see the Death Court, I bet. Everyone does. Well, it's dead alright. It's been dead since those damned Qantari blasted a hole the size of a small town in Maadoran walls and anything that happened to be near them. Even though it's been a few hundred years, nothing grows there and nothing can live there. From what I hear some folks do try to go there every now and then, but the sickness claims them pretty fast. It's quite a sight though. The glowing spots, the floating debris, the twisted ruins. They did fuck it up real good, that's for sure. No wonder folks want to see it.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Pastel on August 21, 2008, 08:40:25 pm
Wait do sniper crossbows actually work? Isn't the low speed going to make the fall quite big at longer distances, and render the scope useless?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 21, 2008, 08:44:41 pm
Google says they work.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/2047,features,weapons-of-brash-destruction,2

Edit: Here is more info on that precision hunting crossbow, including a picture of a guy aiming and using the scope.

http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/DaveConrad-0001/Field_Evaluation_BowTech.shtml



Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Samurai Jack on August 21, 2008, 08:51:44 pm
Great stuff! More please!


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: dmiller on August 21, 2008, 09:28:31 pm
Pretty neat. Is the crossbow the only type of weapon that can be improved upon like this?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Ellorien on August 22, 2008, 12:43:32 am
A nice sniper crossbow.
The astrolabe and the spyglass - are they really "one of a kind" artifacts? I am asking because your Marcus Cornelius sounds like a snake-oil salesman.  lol A thousand coins! I think a loremaster would have a better deal in your shop.

Oh, and that blast was... interesting. Who are Qantari?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Q on August 22, 2008, 01:57:03 am
Is any crossbow in the game can be upgraded with tis scope? Are we always detected when we shoot someone from long distance, or we can hide somewhere and go killing unseen.  I like sniper tactics a lot.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Gareth on August 22, 2008, 01:57:29 am
Cool sales pitch.  lol

The items are nice as well. ;)


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Granite on August 22, 2008, 03:17:24 am
Oh, and that blast was... interesting. Who are Qantari?
If my AoD lore is yet in shape, the Qantari are extraplanar beings. Am I right, Vince?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Pastel on August 22, 2008, 04:27:36 am
Google says they work.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/2047,features,weapons-of-brash-destruction,2

Edit: Here is more info on that precision hunting crossbow, including a picture of a guy aiming and using the scope.

http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/DaveConrad-0001/Field_Evaluation_BowTech.shtml

That's pretty cool.
So how does the scope affect the crossbow? I'd go for no increase in accuracy for point blank shots, but rather a less steep drop in accuracy over length. Say, instead of going from 90% to 30% over 100m, you'd go from 90% to 50%.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Azael on August 22, 2008, 04:32:12 am
I thought the Q'antari were a foreign people that the old Empire was at war with, inspired by Aztecs or something like it, but the lore might have changed and is unreliable and ambiguous by default so who knows?

Anyway, cool stuff, can't wait to shoot away with a repeating crossbow, assuming that the extra speed is a good tradefor the lesser damage.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 22, 2008, 05:56:01 am
Pretty neat. Is the crossbow the only type of weapon that can be improved upon like this?
All weapons can be upgraded in different ways, but not all upgrades are visible. If you balance your sword (-1AP), it would still look the same.

The astrolabe and the spyglass - are they really "one of a kind" artifacts?
No. I wouldn't believe anything an NPC tells you.

Quote
Oh, and that blast was... interesting. Who are Qantari?
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=89.msg1915#msg1915
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=419.msg11746#msg11746
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=419.msg11996#msg11996
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/world.htm

Is any crossbow in the game can be upgraded with tis scope?
Only 2 models can be outfitted with a scope.

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Are we always detected when we shoot someone from long distance, or we can hide somewhere and go killing unseen.  I like sniper tactics a lot.
The isometric angle doesn't support sniper tactics well, so the scope does two things:
- reduces the accuracy loss (every square between you and your target reduces your chance to hit; high PER helps)
- adds text-adventure options (that's where you can be a real sniper)

If my AoD lore is yet in shape, the Qantari are extraplanar beings. Am I right, Vince?
No.

I thought the Q'antari were a foreign people that the old Empire was at war with, inspired by Aztecs or something like it...
Correct.

PS. And as you understand, the astrolabe doesn't protect you from swords and arrows, but it allows you to find locations using coordinates found elsewhere. It requires INT or Lore to either  understand how it works or to recognize the device.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Jedi_Learner on August 22, 2008, 07:33:53 am
You should think about putting this in the manual, it would make for a nice introduction for one of the chapters?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 22, 2008, 08:18:05 am
Great idea! Maybe an entire manual written in this style? From different characters' point of view, of course. An Imperial Guardsman take on stats should be interesting.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Pastel on August 22, 2008, 09:06:48 am
Great idea! Maybe an entire manual written in this style? From different characters' point of view, of course. An Imperial Guardsman take on stats should be interesting.
That's how the Zeus manual was written, and it was pretty awesome.
Also make sure to put in some nifty illustrations.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 22, 2008, 09:23:34 am
What do you think of this style to introduce special and rare items? I mean instead of simply displaying them in the inventory and giving you the exact (+3 vs gnomes) descriptions? It makes sense that each trader would try to embellish rare items, often giving you completely false information out of ignorance. Opinions?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: FireStomp on August 22, 2008, 09:52:08 am
I like that idea a lot, but I still hope we can et some interesting backstory and lore on the items, rather than "Yeah, yeah, great, so Jimmy, whaddya think about this brand spankin' newly-uncovered knife, huh? It's shiiiiiiny..."

But yeah, that sounds really cool.

So, wait, if only crossbows get the spyglass, what can you do with bows?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Julius on August 22, 2008, 09:59:49 am
How about getting insight depending on your lore skill?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 22, 2008, 10:11:00 am
I like that idea a lot, but I still hope we can et some interesting backstory and lore on the items, rather than "Yeah, yeah, great, so Jimmy, whaddya think about this brand spankin' newly-uncovered knife, huh? It's shiiiiiiny..."
I'm not talking about backstories, I'm talking about sales pitch here. If you have low INT/lore, you'll get "Magical amulet that uses the power of the sun to protect you against swords and arrows.". If you have high INT/lore, then you get a proper description. Funny enough, I'm sure that people who haven't seen this thread would probably feel more secure after putting on the magical amulet.

Quote
So, wait, if only crossbows get the spyglass, what can you do with bows?
You can either laminate the bow strengthening it and allowing greater draw weight (higher penetration) or trade the power for flexibility: the bow is easier to draw, but it's less powerful because of that (less penetration, higher speed).

Edit: There are a lot of arrow/bolt upgrades (masterwork, hardened edge, poison, liquid fire, etc).

How about getting insight depending on your lore skill?
That's exactly how it works. See the Let's Play thread.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Scott on August 22, 2008, 10:47:13 am
- adds text-adventure options (that's where you can be a real sniper)

No way.  I'm concerned that this might be a little too awesome.  If I personally knew any turn-based haters, I'd be emailing them posthaste to increase their efforts.  Wait until the game is released and you'll be too late!!

Regarding "balancing" swords, I'm concerned that that doesn't make any sense.  Perhaps you've done the research I'm too lazy to do myself, but I thought a balanced sword had to be forged from scratch, and that you couldn't just add a lead ball to the haft.

For your edification, the chu-ko-nu, repeating fire crossbow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_Ko_Nu


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: FireStomp on August 22, 2008, 10:50:37 am
I'm not talking about backstories, I'm talking about sales pitch here. If you have low INT/lore, you'll get "Magical amulet that uses the power of the sun to protect you against swords and arrows.". If you have high INT/lore, then you get a proper description. Funny enough, I'm sure that people who haven't seen this thread would probably feel more secure after putting on the magical amulet.

Ah, got it. Sorry, I had misunderstood. That's perfect.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Ellorien on August 22, 2008, 10:53:03 am
I like that idea a lot, but I still hope we can et some interesting backstory and lore on the items, rather than "Yeah, yeah, great, so Jimmy, whaddya think about this brand spankin' newly-uncovered knife, huh? It's shiiiiiiny..."
I'm not talking about backstories, I'm talking about sales pitch here. If you have low INT/lore, you'll get "Magical amulet that uses the power of the sun to protect you against swords and arrows.". If you have high INT/lore, then you get a proper description. Funny enough, I'm sure that people who haven't seen this thread would probably feel more secure after putting on the magical amulet.

So, if my Lore is low, I would never get a proper discription of any 'non-mundane' item? I assume I can pay a loremaster to identify those items. Any other options? Like finding old books/scrolls that mention certain items so I can figure out what my 'artifacts' are for? At least some of them?
For example, a diary of an adventurer or a hunter.




Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 22, 2008, 10:58:50 am
Regarding "balancing" swords, I'm concerned that that doesn't make any sense.  Perhaps you've done the research I'm too lazy to do myself, but I thought a balanced sword had to be forged from scratch, and that you couldn't just add a lead ball to the haft.
Balancing does imply reforging weapons. There are plenty of forging activities in the game. Let's say you found a couple of nice steel daggers. You melt them (you lose some metal in the process though) and forge a short sword. So, you don't have to sell weapons. You can melt them and save the metal for a nice armor set. When your crafting skill goes up, I'd also recommend forging new, better weapons as the quality is tied to your skill. A master craftsman can make a weapon worthy of a king, while an apprentice can make a basic weapon.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 22, 2008, 11:10:28 am
So, if my Lore is low, I would never get a proper discription of any 'non-mundane' item?
Correct.

Quote
I assume I can pay a loremaster to identify those items.
Good idea! I'm sure that Feng will be more than happy to help you out:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=149.msg6502#msg6502

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Any other options? Like finding old books/scrolls that mention certain items so I can figure out what my 'artifacts' are for? At least some of them?
For example, a diary of an adventurer or a hunter.
Even if you are told that it's an astrolabe and explained what it does, what are the odds that you can actually use it to chart a route to some location? See what I mean?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Ellorien on August 22, 2008, 11:42:25 am
Quote
Even if you are told that it's an astrolabe and explained what it does, what are the odds that you can actually use it to chart a route to some location? See what I mean?

If I pay a loremaster to explain how the astrolabe works, am I still unable to use it?  :\


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 22, 2008, 11:55:57 am
Depends on your intelligence. I've never worked with astrolabes before, but I have some experience with sextants (I used to be a sailor), and I can assure you that it's not an intuitive and user-friendly instrument. I assume that astrolabes are even less user-friendly and require a lot more knowledge and understanding.

Do you feel that a loremaster who can actually tell you what it is (did you click on that link?), should be able to teach you how to operate an astrolabe regardless of your INT? Why? Just curious.

Edit: What do y'all think about the art and quality of icons?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Scott on August 22, 2008, 12:07:31 pm
I thought the quality of the art was outstanding, AAA quality stuff, but I prefer the in-thread closeup over the link to imageshack.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: FireStomp on August 22, 2008, 12:18:15 pm
Is there any practical difference between using INT or Lore? Or must we have both raised to a sufficient level?

For instance, if I picked up the astrolabe, and had a high INT score but little-to-no Lore, could I merely puzzle out what it does and how to make it do that? And, having done so, is there then any difference between my experience with it and another's?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: JESUS on August 22, 2008, 12:21:39 pm
I get more excited about this game everytime i visit the forum.

The art quality is great, and the interaction with NPCs are better then any game out there (even in fallout i don't remember so much details).

If i understand correctly if you have enough INT but is not a loremaster you could use the astrolabe?
Maybe you can have enough INT to be taught how to use it by the loremaster who ID it for you, more money for that and more time passed too (like the implants in fallout).

I don't know if i jump the wagon of ideas for you to improve a already great game ( it seens so far), or the other impacient wagon of "finish it already i need my rpg fix". :D


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 22, 2008, 12:31:19 pm
Is there any practical difference between using INT or Lore? Or must we have both raised to a sufficient level?

For instance, if I picked up the astrolabe, and had a high INT score but little-to-no Lore, could I merely puzzle out what it does and how to make it do that? And, having done so, is there then any difference between my experience with it and another's?
None whatsoever. High INT helps you figure out how it works and what the practical implications are. High Lore includes a crash course on astrolabes (you recall studying a treatise on astrolabes). Either INT or Lore is sufficient to work with the device.

I get more excited about this game everytime i visit the forum.
Thank you, Jesus!  :D

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If i understand correctly if you have enough INT but is not a loremaster you could use the astrolabe?
Yes.

Quote
Maybe you can have enough INT to be taught how to use it by the loremaster who ID it for you, more money for that and more time passed too (like the implants in fallout).
It's probably a good idea. We can lower the INT requirement to use it IF you are explained properly what the astrolabe does. As you understand, we don't have the standard "identify it for me, plz!" feature and you have to rely on people who aren't very reliable.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Pastel on August 22, 2008, 12:38:50 pm
Depends on your intelligence. I've never worked with astrolabes before, but I have some experience with sextants (I used to be a sailor), and I can assure you that it's not an intuitive and user-friendly instrument. I assume that astrolabes are even less user-friendly and require a lot more knowledge and understanding.
Sailor turned VP of Marketing turned RPG developer? That's some epic life you lived there.

Do you feel that a loremaster who can actually tell you what it is (did you click on that link?), should be able to teach you how to operate an astrolabe regardless of your INT? Why? Just curious.
Regardless of INT? No. But I assume astrolabes weren't made only for geniuses - you could have those with an intelligence of 6-7 or more be able to learn it, while INT 9-10 would be required for figuring it out yourself. Also, if you do that, you could have the first restriction in place even if you identify it yourself.

Edit: What do y'all think about the art and quality of icons?
[/quote]


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 22, 2008, 01:00:12 pm
Sailor turned VP of Marketing turned RPG developer? That's some epic life you lived there.
The sales thing happened unexpectedly. I worked my way up to office manager, asked for a raise one day, was told that people like me (unproductive scum) only cost money and that if I want to make money, I should bring some money to the company. I said that I'll give it a shot. They gave me a dying telemarketing department (it was dying, but nobody had time to fire all those people). I turned it around and that's when I discovered that I'm really good at selling and managing sales. I was a sales manager for a few years, then was offered a director of sales position in another place, gained some recognition in the advertising industry, and then got my current VP sales & marketing job.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Ellorien on August 22, 2008, 01:50:45 pm
Quote
Do you feel that a loremaster who can actually tell you what it is (did you click on that link?), should be able to teach you how to operate an astrolabe regardless of your INT? Why? Just curious.

Yes, I clicked on the link.
What level of INT is required to learn things like that (being taught by the loremaster)? Is 6 enough? 7? 10? What if I have Int 6 and Lore 150? Can I identify the thing myself (to what end?)? If I have INT 10 but low Lore, would I be able to deduce its purpose? Like, "Aha! This is a mariner astrolabe intended to calculate astronomical latitude! Cool!!! Now I can navigate the oceans". Because "charting routes" was not a common purpose of an astrolabe before Columbus time (the common purpose was finding the time of day or night and making astrological forecasts), let alone brass astrolabes were medieval Muslims' invention. Still, I have nothing against navigational devices in AoD. I like the idea.

Yes, I think INT is important (it is my favorite stat, remember?) but it does not need to be high in order to learn how to operate an astrolabe in a game. It is not rocket science after all.

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What do y'all think about the art and quality of icons?

I am easy to please. The art is fine.

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... was told that people like me (unproductive scum) only cost money and that if I want to make money, I should bring some money to the company

Sounds like a Grifters Guildmaster's pep-talk.  :)


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Pastel on August 22, 2008, 02:35:22 pm
Quote
... was told that people like me (unproductive scum) only cost money and that if I want to make money, I should bring some money to the company

Sounds like a Grifters Guildmaster's pep-talk.  :)

Or maybe that's the inspiration behind the ruthless Merchants Guild.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Ellorien on August 22, 2008, 04:17:55 pm
Quote
... was told that people like me (unproductive scum) only cost money and that if I want to make money, I should bring some money to the company

Sounds like a Grifters Guildmaster's pep-talk.  :)

Or maybe that's the inspiration behind the ruthless Merchants Guild.
And he became a Vice-Guildmaster! Scary stuff...

 
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High INT helps you figure out how it works and what the practical implications are. High Lore includes a crash course on astrolabes (you recall studying a treatise on astrolabes). Either INT or Lore is sufficient to work with the device.

Talking about INT and Lore - in AoD, "high lore" does not tell me much, because "high" could be 50, 200 or 300. Is 50 enough to recall that treatise? I assume "high Int" = 7 or higher and "very high" = 8 or higher. I am probably wrong.
I don't understand how one can figure out this allegedly complex instrument without prior knowledge of trigonometry and astronomy/astrology. INT without lore? No.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Sleet on August 22, 2008, 04:21:19 pm
Great idea! Maybe an entire manual written in this style? From different characters' point of view, of course. An Imperial Guardsman take on stats should be interesting.
Cool.
Lore and tidbits of info from characters in this format one can meet (and not) in game would add a great deal to the manual.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Sleet on August 22, 2008, 04:26:39 pm
Sailor turned VP of Marketing turned RPG developer? That's some epic life you lived there.
The sales thing happened unexpectedly. I worked my way up to office manager, asked for a raise one day, was told that people like me (unproductive scum) only cost money and that if I want to make money, I should bring some money to the company. I said that I'll give it a shot. They gave me a dying telemarketing department (it was dying, but nobody had time to fire all those people). I turned it around and that's when I discovered that I'm really good at selling and managing sales. I was a sales manager for a few years, then was offered a director of sales position in another place, gained some recognition in the advertising industry, and then got my current VP sales & marketing job.
Interesting, tried the sales role and found I was not made for it. I would have taken that dept. down the Styx. VIP computer support became my role, now have a team doing that.  ;)


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 22, 2008, 05:50:51 pm
I used to think that sales is for people who are too lazy to get an honest office job and do something useful like pushing papers and exchanging Excel spreadsheets with other people. I never thought that I could do well in sales and the last thing I wanted was to be in sales. However, that was my only advancement opportunity at that moment, so I had to take it and see what happens.

Sales is like a chess party. There are tactics and strategies. There are right moves and wrong moves. There are choices and consequences. And you have to think really fast and analyze situations even faster. Most people misunderstand sales and go there for the wrong reasons though. Anyway...

Talking about INT and Lore - in AoD, "high lore" does not tell me much, because "high" could be 50, 200 or 300. Is 50 enough to recall that treatise?
No. Since the max is 300, 50 doesn't qualify for "high".

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I assume "high Int" = 7 or higher and "very high" = 8 or higher. I am probably wrong.
Min INT is 4, so the real range is 4-10. We assume that anything under 4 represents people who are too weak or too stupid to handle the main quest. So, 8 is high, 9 is very high, and 10 means that you are a genius.

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I don't understand how one can figure out this allegedly complex instrument without prior knowledge of trigonometry and astronomy/astrology. INT without lore? No.
High INT does imply prior knowledge of many things. You can't be super smart and know nothing, can you? Lore implies specific knowledge since loremaster are often required to deal with old gadgets so they collect and study anything related to the old science. Many don't understand the underlying principles like trigonometry and astronomy, but they do know how to operate old devices.

screen 1 (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=363.0;attach=1914;image)
screen 2 (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=363.0;attach=1916;image)




Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Hector on August 22, 2008, 07:05:45 pm
Knowledge and Intelligence aren't always the same thing.  An idiot can be knowledgeable, he just won't be smart enough to put that knowledge to practical use.  At the same time, a Genius might not have had much by way of an education.  Personally, for something like that I'd probably make it a lore check with INT providing bonuses.  Someone with high intelligence (8+) with basic trigonometry and astrology under his belt (lore 50-60) should probably be able to figure it out.  By the same token, someone with low intelligence would require a high amount of lore (250-260) to figure out how something like that works.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Pastel on August 23, 2008, 06:28:45 am
From what I understand Lore only refers to the specific knowledge of history, machinery and such. Generic knowledge is covered by Mathematics.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Sergei Quaid on August 23, 2008, 07:29:02 am
Next ITS RPG about marketing?  :)


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Villfarelse on August 23, 2008, 07:35:57 am
Do you feel that a loremaster who can actually tell you what it is (did you click on that link?), should be able to teach you how to operate an astrolabe regardless of your INT? Why? Just curious.
I think that would be a good idea (well, perhaps not regardless of INT, but if it's lower than average). But it should also depend on the NPC in question. That Feng, for example, does not seem to be someone who would like to waste time teaching an "idiot" something like that.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Palmer Eldritch on August 23, 2008, 09:20:34 am
That Feng, for example, does not seem to be someone who would like to waste time teaching an "idiot" something like that.

Yeah, I think there should be someone who would be able to teach you, either as a reward for something, or for a price. There should still be some requirements, but perhaps just slightly lower than what's required for figuring it out for yourself. It shouldn't be easy to find this person who's willing to teach you though, maybe this would be reserved for a charismatic fellow? Options are always nice, but of course, everything should not be available for anyone.

Knowledge and Intelligence aren't always the same thing. 

True, but this is not the real world. If Vince decided that INT implies certain knowledge, than that's how the system works. I personally would consider the INT stat suitable for innate intelligence, and let skills represent what knowledge you've gained, exclusively. But the thing is, I'm suspecting that the assumption that INT = knowledge (to some degree) + understanding (or potential for learning), is something that shouldn't be changed at this point, as many things in the game have been designed with this in mind.

By the same token, someone with low intelligence would require a high amount of lore (250-260) to figure out how something like that works.

This would be very annoying. I'm assuming that the starting value of a skill is affected by its parent stat (correct me if I'm wrong, though), so a stoopid or mediocre INT-char would have to waste a lot of skill points to reach such a level. Let's say he did that, probably sacrificing a lot more suitable skills in the process, and then he can't even use the skill properly? Nah.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Ellorien on August 23, 2008, 03:41:46 pm
Why would anyone need Lore 250 to learn how to use the astrolabe??? People who don't know jack about electronics can operate electronic devices if they've read a manual or have been trained by instructors. Vince said even loremasters don't understand the underlying principles. They have read a few pages of the manual at best. If you pay a loremaster, he can show you how to rotate the parts. Not a big deal. All you need is average INT and money. A bit of basic education (Lore 101) won't hurt either.
However, expecting a smart but uneducated  person (High INT, no or minimal  Lore) who has no clue about trigonometry or astronomy to figure out celestial navigation is wishful thinking, IMO. My bet the genius will be wearing the "amulet" for some time before he begins to doubt Markus' claim.

That being said, of course Vince can make any assumption he wants. I am sure the stats will be explained in the manual.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Granite on August 23, 2008, 10:48:08 pm
Vince, a doubt has just poped into my mind... the first time I saw this pic (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=363.0;attach=1916;image), I thought that that machine was a kind of semi-mechanical, semi-magical device, with that "rite" thing being *required* to be recited, along with managing the physical controls in order to make the whole thing to work. And I liked that.
Now, however, I clearly see that it's a normal machine, and the "mantra" is just a step-by-spep manual.
Can you, please, clarify this?


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Mad Mantis on August 24, 2008, 04:47:08 am
I thought that that machine was a kind of semi-mechanical, semi-magical device, with that "rite" thing being *required* to be recited, along with managing the physical controls in order to make the whole thing to work. And I liked that.
Now, however, I clearly see that it's a normal machine, and the "mantra" is just a step-by-spep manual.

The fact that it is a normal machine is what I liked about it. There is a dark age of technology going on, sort of similar to WH40K. People are ignorant on the use of technology and the rites are just their instruction manuals. Since they don’t understand what they are using they made up a superstitious rite that should help them get the function they want every time they use it. Nowadays a lot of people also do that with things they don’t really understand.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 24, 2008, 08:25:01 am
Vince, a doubt has just poped into my mind... the first time I saw this pic (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=363.0;attach=1916;image), I thought that that machine was a kind of semi-mechanical, semi-magical device, with that "rite" thing being *required* to be recited, along with managing the physical controls in order to make the whole thing to work. And I liked that.
Now, however, I clearly see that it's a normal machine, and the "mantra" is just a step-by-spep manual.
Can you, please, clarify this?
It's a normal machine. The mantra is an operation manual for people who don't understand what exactly they are doing.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Claw on August 25, 2008, 10:52:47 am
I don't mind how INT and Lore work, but I wonder if there are intermediate steps. It would make sense if a character could recognize an astrolabe without knowing how to use it, or at least realize that it's not a magic amulet of protection.


My bet the genius will be wearing the "amulet" for some time before he begins to doubt Markus' claim.
Eh, I'd say someone who wears that thing hoping it'll magically protect him doesn't qualify as genius.


Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Ellorien on August 25, 2008, 11:29:53 am
My bet the genius will be wearing the "amulet" for some time before he begins to doubt Markus' claim.
Eh, I'd say someone who wears that thing hoping it'll magically protect him doesn't qualify as genius.

In AoD world where loremasters speak mantras before pulling levers?
You give uneducated geniuses too much credit.




Title: Re: A conversation with Marcus Cornelius Arvina
Post by: Vince on August 25, 2008, 11:41:24 am
In AoD world where loremasters speak mantras before pulling levers?
While they are pulling levers. They recite mantas to confirm each step and follow steps in correct orders.