Iron Tower Studio Forums

RPG => The Age of Decadence => Topic started by: Oscar on November 23, 2007, 02:36:27 pm



Title: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on November 23, 2007, 02:36:27 pm
Originally our towns were simple, single-map locations where everything unnecessary was omitted. While that was good and functional, the maps lacked atmosphere and didn't really look like real towns, but camps.

(http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/9851/15ih6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

As you can see the old Teron looked way too small, so we decided to split this town and all others into 3-4 "districts" to flesh them out a bit, add some atmosphere and distinctive style. These shots are work in progress, so your suggestions are welcome.

Gate District

I present you the gate district of Teron.

(http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/4860/finalgdoverviewbl4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/3686/finalgdgateyf6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/1964/finalgdbrokenwallho1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/7219/finalgdtavernig9.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6332/finalgdhouseslx4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


Barracks District:

Here are some shots of the Market Area, in the Barracks District of Teron.


(http://img119.imageshack.us/img119/8032/barracksdistrictmarket1qo0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/2883/barracksdistrictmarket2bo0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


Here is an overview shot of the Barracks district.


(http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/6355/barracksdistrictovervieoc7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Matt on November 23, 2007, 02:57:03 pm
Wow guys, those look great! I like how many houses there are, for just one district. I'm impressed. I assume they are all enterable and have unique decorations inside?

Also, the graphics look gorgeous. From an old video I was thinking this game would look too much like Runescape, but I've proven wrong from those screenshots. I've actually just come fresh out of a multiplayer game in Company of Heroes, and even on full settings the graphics look quite similar.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on November 23, 2007, 03:03:51 pm
Not all houses are explorable. 2/3 of them are just a filler, to create an "urban" atmosphere. As for the interior, hey, Oscar, can you post a few shots if you have time?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Nick on November 23, 2007, 03:07:24 pm
Hey, Matt, glad to see you're already here, too. I totally love our members list :)

Well, these are 3dsmax renders. Shadows on the engine won't be as nice... for example, self-shadowing doesn't work there. However, no other special effects were used by Oscar to render this, so the final result will look pretty similar to what you see here.

Interiors will have 3dsmax quality of look, since they use lightmaps, mostly.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Tuomas on November 23, 2007, 03:26:06 pm
Wonderful. :) the textures definitely add a decadent feel to the buildings, cobble stones, roofs, and tiles.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: FrancoTAU on November 23, 2007, 03:46:04 pm
Wow, that really looks great.  The town used to look more like a really nice basic JRPG town. The little touches really add up to make it look real.  The only small nitpick I could make is that there are full grown trees here and there with almost no patches of grass or little dinky bushes or trees.

It's amazing what you guys were able to do with Torque.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Gareth on November 23, 2007, 04:15:12 pm
Very, very nice, a HUGE improvement, welll done guys :)

I'm fine with filler houses. I prefer that to very small looking settlements where everything is enterable.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on November 23, 2007, 05:17:07 pm
Not all houses are explorable. 2/3 of them are just a filler, to create an "urban" atmosphere. As for the interior, hey, Oscar, can you post a few shots if you have time?

Sure.

A run-down house (for that spy quest), a standard house, and the first and second floors of the tavern.

[attachment deleted to save space]


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: puppyonastik on November 23, 2007, 06:27:43 pm
Fantastic work Oscar! It's almost perfect imo. All I think it needs is some sparse light green grasses in among the housing to balance out all the browns and grays.

I love how dirty and lived in it looks.  :D

Edit: The insides don't need any improvements I think. They look very realistic.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: FrancoTAU on November 23, 2007, 11:44:04 pm
Interiors look great.  It's very gloomy, but still feels like its being lived in.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: callehe on November 24, 2007, 03:34:30 am
It looks great! The second floor on the tavern is superbly done. All the interiors look great in fact.



Only nitpick for me had more to do with logic than the art itself: the trees look a little too green and happy outside the gate. Since the gate is made out of wood, the guards would likely chop down the closest trees first to make the spikey logs.


Generic suggestion:
If you would like to add more to the atmosphere of the cities, you could add some sanitation facilities: where did the people go to the toilet for instance - the ruins of a former bathhouse maybe?

What I would like to see more of in terms of cityscape is a mix of pre-apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic style with sharp distinctions.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: renkin on November 24, 2007, 07:44:08 am
Nice new forum!

As for the town, this is a vast improvement. It doesn't look empty and artificially scattered anymore, and the colors are much better. However, I have two remarks:

First, the gap at the left edge (as seen in the picture) of the district makes no sense to me. It makes the block of houses seem unnecessarily cramped together into one little rectangle. If you got rid of the gap, either by adding another row of houses or cropping the map, the area would look much more like one part of a continuous urban district.

Second, I sense a slight inconsistency in the atmosphere. While the wall is severely run down at places, all the houses seem to be in perfectly fine condition. It takes away from the post-apocalyptic feeling a bit, in my opinion. Also, it doesn't make much sense that the townsfolk took time to rebuild/repair all the razed/damaged houses, but repaired the walls in a very temporary manner. Make a couple of the houses have collapsed roofs, is my suggestion. :)

ADDED:

Upon closer inspection, I see that the area actually has two foundations of razed houses, and possibly some fixed roofs as well. I guess my comment was a bit quick, but I still feel the contrast between completely repaired and totally destroyed is a bit high. So my new suggestion is add a couple of partially collapsed houses that nobody cared to fix/clean up yet.

Also, I see now the gap is actually along the whole edge of the area. Maybe you want that feeling of a contained housing area, but it still looks slightly weird to me.

None of these are serious flaws by any means. I'm merely focusing on what I think could be improved.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on November 24, 2007, 09:17:25 am
Good points. The trees will be gone (anything that close to the town would have been used a long time ago). The gap to the left won't be accessible in game - that's just the map's border and it won't be shown. As for the houses, I agree. They do look too well-maintained, but we've already sent a demolition crew there, so give us a few days and we'll fix it. Or un-fix it.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on November 24, 2007, 09:41:51 am
Great post, renkin, very helpful. :)

When you refer to the "gap at the left edge", you mean the one that runs from the street to the wall? The one that is created between the row of houses?

The district ends with the row of houses that are in the same line as the tower. The new row of houses are just some filler houses that you can see at the edge of the screen, so that it doesn't appear empty. The same goes for the houses that go alongside the road to the north.

So, if it's that gap, I think it's not a big problem since, most probably, it won't be noticed ingame. But I can try to move some houses around to make it less noticiable and less artificial.

About the inconsistency on the atmosphere, I've taken note of your criticism and working on adding more noticeable variety, as Vince already said. :)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: renkin on November 24, 2007, 10:32:08 am
Vince and Oscar: That sounds great. Demolition for the world. :) As for the gap, I'm still unsure which one you mean, but I meant the one running along the edge of the map, basically. It makes perfect sense however that it's just some filler that won't be shown in-game. Somehow I didn't think of that before posting. So anyway, now I'm entirely happy about it. :D


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Priapist on November 24, 2007, 10:49:28 am
<cough> Bloat! </cough>

But it's all good. If there's one thing the comparison between Assassin's Creed and Oblivion teaches us, it's that toy cities just don't cut it. Also, I can deal with filler, but please include some obvious visual clues and not a shit-tacular design element like permanently locked doors you need to walk over to and interact with just to check if the house is real or not.

And since it's my first post here, congrats on the new forums, they look spiffy, and this "first name basis" thing is kinda cool. Shame mine was usurped by a ninja. :hahano:


Title: RE: Town Districts
Post by: Frost on November 24, 2007, 11:09:51 am
To make filler houses more believeable, you could make all house doors interactive, and when clicked on the filler generic house door, you'd see some witty  random floating response of what do house owner think of you and your atempt to go in to his house... it's a small thing, but it can build some atmosphere, and it's surely better than "It's closed"...

And... Good job with forums! Keep up the good work...

Edit: Oh.. and a irritating "Knock Knock" sfx is a must...


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: axedice on November 24, 2007, 11:14:40 am
I think Baldur's Gate 2 did this well. When you come across a filler house, the mouse pointer changes into a question mark and gives you a simple text saying there's nothing intresting in the house.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Euchrid on November 24, 2007, 11:16:31 am
Looking much better.
Aside from a greater degree of dilapidation and removal of trees, can't think of any significant improvements. The interiors are looking great too. Also, I agree with the last poster, some kind of visual queue for filler houses would be welcome (though hardly a necessity), could just make them more dilapidated, maybe even boarded up. Though, this is probably impractical with two thirds as filler, some kind of text would be a better option, especially if you were not required to walk up to the door to see it.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: trais on November 24, 2007, 11:20:13 am
Looks nice, but there's too much brown in it. Even the humblest of homo sapiens likes different colors and tend to decorate their homes, even only to look a bit different than the neighbor (I guess it's one of most basic human instinct, to be unique). In such monotone and sad-looking town suicide rate of citizens would be a bit too high I guess.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Cassidy on November 24, 2007, 11:32:49 am
Looks nice, but there's too much brown in it. Even the humblest of homo sapiens likes different colors and tend to decorate their homes, even only to look a bit different than the neighbor (I guess it's one of most basic human instinct, to be unique). In such monotone and sad-looking town suicide rate of citizens would be a bit too high I guess.

Yes, but it actually adds to the feeling of desolation. Fallout would lose part of its Post-apoc spirit if houses were all colorful in it, for example, plus I don't expect suicide to be totally unknown in a desolate world where magic did almost as much devastation as RL nukes. Though it would be interesting to see one of those craters from the world map as an underground ruins-filled location and a screenshot of it, as I guess that there must have been something really important there(It could be an indirect tribute to "The Glow" too, though logically without radiation... or is there a kind of "magical death flow" in AoD?).

Now on the more pressing matter, I believe a few spots, to represent the houses that were there but aren't anymore(or just the razed ruins of houses, if it's believable to consider the population doesn't have time to clean up the mess) would add to the feel too. And I don't know if this is going too far, but what about some charred ground?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: John Yossarian on November 24, 2007, 11:53:01 am
Great job guys! That place looks to me like a great mix between Balmora and the Rome tv series buildings. Would it be too much to ask to post images of some other town (one that has already experienced Oscar's loving touch)?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: trais on November 24, 2007, 12:07:00 pm
Yes, but it actually adds to the feeling of desolation.
Sure, it adds to the feeling of desolation, but it doesn't look (at least to me) like a town where people are living (getting born, growing up, loving, hating, trying to score with chicks, usual stuff). It looks like a pre-build town which whole purpose was to make player feel lonely and sad.

Fallout would lose part of its Post-apoc spirit if houses were all colorful in it, (...)
Yeah, but there where lots of "decorations" in Fallouts. Posters, broken cars, burning barrels, art-deco on buildings...

for example, plus I don't expect suicide to be totally unknown in a desolate world where magic did almost as much devastation as RL nukes.
Yeah, cool. Still, majority people usually want to survive and live as comfortable and happy life as possible. It's just human nature. And one part of happy life is esthetically pleasing environment, I belive.

In short, new maps looks very post-apoc, just not "real" enough to belive that "real" people are living there.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on November 24, 2007, 12:10:04 pm
I think Baldur's Gate 2 did this well. When you come across a filler house, the mouse pointer changes into a question mark and gives you a simple text saying there's nothing intresting in the house.
That's what we have. "You see nothing of interest inside".


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Koby on November 24, 2007, 12:11:18 pm
As you can see the old Teron looked way too small, so we decided to split towns into 3-4 "districts" to flesh them out a bit, add some atmosphere and distinctive style. These shots are work in progress, so your suggestions are welcome.

Concerning location designs in general: In my DM days, I found that emphasizing on "how this place came into being and how did it reached its current state", had the biggest contribution to final product believability. Whether it was map making, cave/dungeon design, town design etc.

Answering question like:
How did it start, by which process/individual/event, and why?
How did it grow/changed, which factor(s) contributed the most to this process and what are the reasons behind them?
Things like that give the most insight in the creation process, a better bigger picture perspective if you may.

The same applies to town locations; the most important thing to know about it is its history. IMOH the best looking town I created where the towns I designed from birth to the current time, mostly in my head with the help of some doodles.

Towns grow mostly organically (especially after a great devastating event one would think). Slumps for example grow the fastest, usually outwards (the first to grow outside the walls), they also tent to be the most crowded and chaotic (the first indication of the poor zones). The wealthier sections on the other hand grow slowly, tends to be spacious (gardens, broad boulevards), taller buildings (not just wider) are more common especially if space is costly. It is common to see in some older cities mansions (and other "spacial" locations) "attached" from the outside to the original wall surrounding the city; encompassed by an extension wall (you might consider this as a starting point to the town, as in the layout of the town before apocalypse).

http://www.infocordoba.com/spain/andalusia/cordoba/city_walls.htm (look at the blue marked section)

Stuff like that.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on November 24, 2007, 12:17:44 pm
Great job guys! That place looks to me like a great mix between Balmora and the Rome tv series buildings. Would it be too much to ask to post images of some other town (one that has already experienced Oscar's loving touch)?
That's the plan, but one at a time.

Yes, but it actually adds to the feeling of desolation.
Sure, it adds to the feeling of desolation, but it doesn't look (at least to me) like a town where people are living (getting born, growing up, loving, hating, trying to score with chicks, usual stuff). It looks like a pre-build town which whole purpose was to make player feel lonely and sad.
Have you seen depression era pictures?




Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on November 24, 2007, 12:21:31 pm
Towns grow mostly organically (especially after a great devastating event one would think). Slumps for example grow the fastest, usually outwards (the first to grow outside the walls), they also tent to be the most crowded and chaotic (the first indication of the poor zones).
Valid points. This particular town - Teron - used to be a fort, hence the "planned development" look. Other towns are more organic.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: trais on November 24, 2007, 12:54:21 pm
Have you seen depression era pictures?
Mostly black and white photographs ;)

But I grew up in poor communist/post-communist central-Europe country, where dominating color in the cities were dust-grey and rust-red. But even then people at least had grown flowers by their windows.

I understand that the above won't convince anybody, but there's still another reason to add some more colors - looking for a long time at the same palette quickly tires eyes.
But I belive when these maps will be populated it'll look much better.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: John Yossarian on November 24, 2007, 01:25:09 pm


Off-Topic:
I grew up in a commie country too, but noone had flowers in their windows because they either took them in every night or they'd be gone by morning. Some people had them in places inside their house, although most of those were in front of pictures of dead people or African gods.

 I never thought about it, but a definite footprint decadence left in my country was the completely different and fucked way the houses looked. You looked down a block and the only time houses looked the same is when the state had split a bigger one into two or more. There'd be a really tall, one story, wooden house in the corner, looking like I'll fall if you farted too hard, right next (and by that I mean wall to wall) to a brick and concrete two story one that could probably withstand a nuclear blast. The thing is that nobody bothered to rebuild or fix anything, so if by 1959 your colonial house hadn't been taken down, it's most likely still there today, while if it was, the state built you a bunker instead.

Maybe something like this could be considered for towns where some pre-apoc. buildings stand next to new ones. I could look for pictures if it might help.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Kingston on November 24, 2007, 03:10:20 pm
Great work!

I don't think all the trees should neccessarily be gone, you could have a few young ones amongst the tree stumps. In Finland there is a law that says that for every tree cut down, a new one must be planted. In an age that is in the aftermath of destruction, I think such a law could have been passed (or at least a habit would have formed). If it is truly the age of decadence, then people should be clinging to every straw to rebuild the world. Can they waste trees? Not to mention that without trees erosion builds up and can lead to the infertility of huge areas (look at Easter Island, immigrants managed to permanently destroy the land in under 50 years back in the 17-18th century).


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: John Yossarian on November 24, 2007, 03:14:49 pm
Weren't Eastern Islanders the ones who prayed to gods for more trees by building huge ass statues that needed trees to be chopped down to carry the stones around?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on November 24, 2007, 03:36:48 pm

Concerning location designs in general: In my DM days, I found that emphasizing on "how this place came into being and how did it reached its current state", had the biggest contribution to final product believability. Whether it was map making, cave/dungeon design, town design etc.

Answering question like:
How did it start, by which process/individual/event, and why?
How did it grow/changed, which factor(s) contributed the most to this process and what are the reasons behind them?
Things like that give the most insight in the creation process, a better bigger picture perspective if you may.


I can only second that. If you can manage to get a sense of history to shine through, you have won. The setting of Age of Decadence seems perfect to achieve this. The new design looks much better, but it could maybe do more in this direction. Ask youself, what was here before, how did it change, and how can I give some visual clues to this history.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Decado on November 24, 2007, 03:44:02 pm
Looks nice, though I'm usually more concerned with character models and animations.  Pretty scenery is just that in RPGs.  Until environmental interactivity is up to the level of some other genres, it isn't really a major concern (looking decent is fine by me).


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: VonVentrue on November 24, 2007, 04:19:08 pm
Looks nice, but there's too much brown in it. Even the humblest of homo sapiens likes different colors and tend to decorate their homes, even only to look a bit different than the neighbor (I guess it's one of most basic human instinct, to be unique). In such monotone and sad-looking town suicide rate of citizens would be a bit too high I guess.

Yes, but it actually adds to the feeling of desolation. Fallout would lose part of its Post-apoc spirit if houses were all colorful in it, for example, plus I don't expect suicide to be totally unknown in a desolate world where magic did almost as much devastation as RL nukes.

It's not necessarily about decorating the crumbling remains of what once used to be a house (as a matter of fact, this is exactly what I find severely lacking in those screenshots - the ruins of desolated buildings; I am glad that such issues are currently being worked on) - it's about using different shades of a particular colour (brown, in this instance). Further distinguishing colour differences between individual textures will provide better, clearer 'reading the environment' experience - one that's definitely easier on the eyes.

Here a couple of fine examples of what I have in mind... Orangey browns, dark browns, light browns, red browns, grey browns...
(http://www.timecastmodels.co.uk/tips/pantileroofs.jpg)
(http://duckandcover.cx/features/bible/fatasscar.gif)

Also, I think that adding a campfire for beggars to gather around either on the outskirts of the town or in the middle of it (inside a roofless house, maybe?) might help improve the overall atmosphere.

Keep up the good job, Oscar!


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: ViolentOpposition on November 24, 2007, 05:38:16 pm
Damn, that looks pretty good. I liked the idea someone had of adding a little more green in there somewhere. Not tons! Just a little something.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on November 24, 2007, 05:42:54 pm
Looks nice, though I'm usually more concerned with character models and animations.
A new combat video will be posted in a few days. It will show the models and improved animations.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on November 24, 2007, 06:32:57 pm
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/6332/finalgdhouseslx4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

What do you think?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: MountainWest on November 24, 2007, 06:47:08 pm

What do you think?

Orgazmatron.

However, doesn't it look a bit too... cozy? Like a rural mountain village. Hardly a place of decadence. It needs trash in all its forms imo; the unmistakable sign of people not giving a shit about anything but themselves, if even that.

Of course, this town might be controlled. Or it might be a refuge for the somewhat civilized of the world. Thus the "cozy" look would be ok, I guess.

EDIT:

Checked the pictures again and what irks me is that everything is so clean. The houses looks like they have a ground keeper taking care of them. The black/brown shifts in color isn't enough to portray a truly run down society. Not a society outside of a desert climate at least (and the sort of trees in the pictures aren't the kind I associate with a desert). Anyone living or having lived in their own house knows shit breakes down. It lies in shits nature. The walls need repainting. The roofs need fixing. Windows break and need cleaning. Stuff that doesn't fit in your nifty garbage bag needs to be transported from your garden. And so on and so forth. In a society deprived of modern utilities there would probably be moss and fungus(?) growing inbetween the cracks of the stone houses. Temporary come permanent fixes would grace them just about everywhere.

Point: the houses are too well kept and there's way too little signs of nature. Nature's a bitch, she infests where she can.

Edit 2: Lesson: words doesn't mean the same in English as in Swedish just because they sound alike.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Claw on November 24, 2007, 07:09:35 pm
What do you think?

I am amazed. The game is hardly recognizeable anymore. Now I understand why the game takes so long to finish - now that you've started, you have to bring all locations up to the same level.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: puppyonastik on November 24, 2007, 07:20:16 pm
For someone that picked all this up as a hobby, you truly have undeniable talent, Oscar. You impress me at every turn.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Major_Blackhart on November 25, 2007, 01:16:31 am
I gots ta say fellas, this looks quite nice. Quick question though: if 2/3's are unexplorable or something along those numbers, does that 1/3 have alot of meaningful content or will it be bland "i'm a villager!" type stuff or something?

Also, how possible will it to be to rob these places if one chooses to become a thief? (not necessarily associated with the thieves guild tho). Like, for example, in arcanum, you could climb in through a window, which could be useful if the door was locked and/or guarded or trapped or something. Can you do that here?

Finally, add some sort of gathering hall for some of the locals to group together, maybe a big firepit on the outskirts of town, like a place where they meet in secret and plot against the nobility for this reason or that. Or maybe it's just a place where they hold annual festivities and celebrations, similar to the roman holiday celebrations of Saturnalia or Lupercalia. Basically, a big firepit where feasting and all manner of decadence can take place, or a great hall, that's kind of crumbling or worn and weathered, where feasting and all manner of decadence can take place. Other than that, Kudos. And Kudos to VD for starting up a new forum.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Ekodas on November 25, 2007, 05:59:59 am
Hey there. I'm french - don't shoot, I surren..err nevermind - sorry for my bad grammar / spelling.

Koby made some very good points. I'll add my 2 cents.

Imho the streets (and the alignment of houses) look too 'straight' ; it makes sense for the main, cobbled street, but the others should be sinuous, made of dirty, hard packed earth winding its way between hovels.

On a side note, in medieval towns the gutter use to run in the middle of the street (you can still see that in very old town - I know it for a reason : I live in a medieval town, with the castle of a former Duke towering 300 meters from my apartment :P).

Callehe mentioned sanitation facilities : people used chamber-pot, and used to throw the wastes through the windows - which made the streets a dirty and quite dangerous place to walk in (good thing we lost this habit, uh ?).

If you read the French, you can check "La rue au Moyen-âge" (Street in the Middle-Age) by Jean-Pierre Leguay (I'm not making this name up heh). It's a great read.

Alright, 2 shots :

(see how the buildings seem to lean)
(http://www.123savoie.com/pic/14254_t6.jpg)

And here are the stairs leading to the Castel's park (the arch is quite worn-out, it's from the 13th century)
(http://www.123savoie.com/pic/14252_t6.jpg)

Hope that helps. 'Looking forward to AoD.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on November 25, 2007, 07:37:56 am
I would like to make one suggestion for the textures of the brick walls: Can there be the occasional "recycled" stone, with artwork and materials from ages past? Like a piece of statue, a broken piece of marble column, a piece of relief, amidst the simple stone? This is actually a common sight in many old european villages that were in the vicinity of roman or greek buildings - those made very convenient quarries.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on November 25, 2007, 09:09:31 am
I gots ta say fellas, this looks quite nice. Quick question though: if 2/3's are unexplorable or something along those numbers, does that 1/3 have alot of meaningful content or will it be bland "i'm a villager!" type stuff or something?
Meaningful content, i.e. quests.

Quote
Also, how possible will it to be to rob these places if one chooses to become a thief?
Very possible.

Quote
And Kudos to VD for starting up a new forum.
Thanks.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Morbus on November 25, 2007, 11:01:49 am
@ Ekodas

Most roman native cities had straight roads like that. You had the cardus and the decomanus, which were the most important roads (E-W and N-S), and a lot of other specifications. Still, non native roman cities had messy roads, often very thin roads, as opposed to the much broader roman roads. I don't know if AoD aims for that, but if its roman all the way through, then the streets look nice. It was said, however, that it looks like that because it was originally a fort, so maybe it's not roman all the way through anyway.

From another perspective, thin roads don't go very well with games, and they require a lot more work to create than broad roads. But they look very cool if done well...

Remember than medieval times had little in common with the classical era. They're completely different settings.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Ekodas on November 25, 2007, 01:09:36 pm
@ Ekodas

Most roman native cities had straight roads like that. You had the cardus and the decomanus, which were the most important roads (E-W and N-S), and a lot of other specifications. Still, non native roman cities had messy roads, often very thin roads, as opposed to the much broader roman roads. I don't know if AoD aims for that, but if its roman all the way through, then the streets look nice. It was said, however, that it looks like that because it was originally a fort, so maybe it's not roman all the way through anyway.

From another perspective, thin roads don't go very well with games, and they require a lot more work to create than broad roads. But they look very cool if done well...

Remember than medieval times had little in common with the classical era. They're completely different settings.

You're right, Morbus.

Looks like I missed the point ('thinking 'gothic'-like setting, when I should have take a closer look at the game : "inspired by the fall of the Roman Empire" -> Doh )  :-[

*hide in a corner and cry a little*



Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Morbus on November 26, 2007, 04:42:28 am
Come now, I was not bashing...


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Tomasz on November 26, 2007, 05:29:03 am
Wow really nice looking place. I can see by the screens of locations (the way the towns being built) that the part of AOD world, in which we will be playing is based on the roman provinces in Europe. The architecture looks much more middle age than late roman, so i guess that the location is build in barbarian lands but the city ways are planned as it was in Roman cities. Sorry for my curiosity, but are there any locations inspired by the roman towns in Italia? Also it would be nice to see some philosophy schools, are there any? I think it's pretty easy to connect them to the magic schools, especially Greek Philosophers of Nature can easly be connected.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Ekodas on November 26, 2007, 07:39:48 am
*hug Morbus*

Anyway, GhanBuriGhan talked about recycled stone. That's actually a great idea. People used to pick up stuff where they could to rebuild houses/town, and since we're talking about the fall of the roman empire...
Cobbled roads would provide stone (a lot of roman roads were destroyed this way, dismantled by people trying to rebuild their town next door - same thing for temples etc.. and throughout history, the same pattern would repeat after a war).


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on November 26, 2007, 10:10:19 am
Wow really nice looking place.
Thanks.


Quote
I can see by the screens of locations (the way the towns being built) that the part of AOD world, in which we will be playing is based on the roman provinces in Europe.
The setting is only *inspired* by the Roman Empire and its fall. Here is the map (work in progress still - by that I mean that 2/3 of the icons are still being worked on)

(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/1461/map09my4.jpg)

Quote
Also it would be nice to see some philosophy schools, are there any? I think it's pretty easy to connect them to the magic schools, especially Greek Philosophers of Nature can easly be connected.
Philosophy schools don't really fit the setting. Maybe if we do The Age of Renaissance one day...


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: TheLostOne on November 27, 2007, 10:17:31 am
I like the map.  Makes me nostalgiac.

I assume locations become unlocked through dialog and story progression.  Any of them obscure, or well hidden as in requiring some digging through dialog or skill/persuasion requirements?

Also, what about random encounters when travelling?  Are those in?  Hopefully some non-combat sidequest type ones in there.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on November 27, 2007, 10:29:17 am
I assume locations become unlocked through dialog and story progression.
Yes.

Quote
Any of them obscure, or well hidden as in requiring some digging through dialog or skill/persuasion requirements?
Yes. Some will only be available if you join a certain faction (think Fallout 2 Sierra Army Depot).

Quote
Also, what about random encounters when travelling?  Are those in?  Hopefully some non-combat sidequest type ones in there.
Yes.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Hümmelgümpf der Bruzzelzwerg on November 27, 2007, 11:02:11 am
Quote from: Vince
Quote from: TheLostOne
Also, what about random encounters when travelling?  Are those in?  Hopefully some non-combat sidequest type ones in there.
Yes.
Any Monty Python references? A Black Knight maybe?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on November 27, 2007, 11:06:15 am
Nope. Nothing for the lulz.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: VonVentrue on November 27, 2007, 12:03:14 pm
Quote
Quote
Also, what about random encounters when travelling?  Are those in?  Hopefully some non-combat sidequest type ones in there.
Yes.

VD, what does travelling through the world map look like? Does it take a while to get to your destination or is the player's character directly 'teleported' to a desired location?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on November 27, 2007, 01:21:33 pm
Instantly. Think BG2 / NWN2.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Morbus on November 27, 2007, 01:23:45 pm
Nope. Nothing for the lulz.
God bless you Vince.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: cardtrick on November 27, 2007, 11:20:37 pm
Wow. Oscar, you're truly talented. The improvement in the town in that first post is just remarkable.

Someone should post links to these screenshots on the Update page of the website.

One thing I would really love to see is graffiti. We all know Roman cities had more than their fair share, and nothing says "collapsed civilization" like obscene messages on the walls.

I would like to make one suggestion for the textures of the brick walls: Can there be the occasional "recycled" stone, with artwork and materials from ages past? Like a piece of statue, a broken piece of marble column, a piece of relief, amidst the simple stone? This is actually a common sight in many old european villages that were in the vicinity of roman or greek buildings - those made very convenient quarries.

I just want to call further attention to this post. This is a seriously brilliant idea. It sounds like this could be a really effective tool for establishing atmosphere, not to mention just looking cool.  In my mind, this could be as important for AoD's art direction as using rusted cars for walls was for the Fallouts.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Priapist on November 28, 2007, 02:01:30 am
Quote
One thing I would really love to see is graffiti. We all know Roman cities had more than their fair share, and nothing says "collapsed civilization" like obscene messages on the walls.

Plus, it would be a perfect opportunity to include "Romani Eunt Domus" somewhere, because "humour to us in videogames is quoting popular films out of context for the lulz."

But, crap jokes aside, I think both this and the recycled stone ideas are great if you've got the time and inclination to go overboard with textures.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: JuJu on November 28, 2007, 12:38:52 pm
Currently this town looks like an island of (relative) order in the sea of desolation. If this was the effect you wanted to achieve, then you have my congratulations for a job well done.

One thing I would really love to see is graffiti. We all know Roman cities had more than their fair share, and nothing says "collapsed civilization" like obscene messages on the walls.
Well the graffiti idea is really bad, and I mean it. Graffiti is usually done by kids who have too much spare time, instead of people who are struggling for survival.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on November 28, 2007, 03:27:34 pm
Currently this town looks like an island of (relative) order in the sea of desolation. If this was the effect you wanted to achieve, then you have my congratulations for a job well done.

One thing I would really love to see is graffiti. We all know Roman cities had more than their fair share, and nothing says "collapsed civilization" like obscene messages on the walls.
Well the graffiti idea is really bad, and I mean it. Graffiti is usually done by kids who have too much spare time, instead of people who are struggling for survival.
I don't know. Historically, graffiti is done by the malcontent and the drunk, and It dates back to roman times. Should not be modern graffiti of course.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on November 28, 2007, 04:20:44 pm
Adding pieces of old columns and statues in the walls seems like a good idea. Of course it will have to be subtle and scarce, as these kind of details tend to "tile" badly when the texture starts repeating itself.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Helian on November 28, 2007, 05:24:07 pm
Proven again: Artistic talent and love for detail can surmount technical restrictions. (And no, I won't do the ob(li)vious comparison, we know it anyway...)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: VasikkA on November 29, 2007, 11:48:13 am
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=32.0;attach=164;image

Alright, what happens when your character walks into one of those tiny rooms? Do you remove the walls that obstruct the view or does the area around your character become transparent a lá Fallout? The last thing I'd want to do is to adjust the viewpoint just so I can open a chest or pick an object from the table.

The interior looks a bit 'heavy'. The walls are too thick p'haps?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Nick on November 29, 2007, 12:18:14 pm
Alright, what happens when your character walks into one of those tiny rooms? Do you remove the walls that obstruct the view or does the area around your character become transparent a lá Fallout? The last thing I'd want to do is to adjust the viewpoint just so I can open a chest or pick an object from the table.

You'll have to do your "last thing", most probably.
Switching to top-down view + zoom may help, though.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: roshan on December 01, 2007, 01:20:20 pm
Currently this town looks like an island of (relative) order in the sea of desolation. If this was the effect you wanted to achieve, then you have my congratulations for a job well done.

One thing I would really love to see is graffiti. We all know Roman cities had more than their fair share, and nothing says "collapsed civilization" like obscene messages on the walls.
Well the graffiti idea is really bad, and I mean it. Graffiti is usually done by kids who have too much spare time, instead of people who are struggling for survival.
I don't know. Historically, graffiti is done by the malcontent and the drunk, and It dates back to roman times. Should not be modern graffiti of course.

The television series "ROME" did a damn good job at recreating roman grafitti - I suggest that the artists watch the series if they need inspiration.

Hell, I suggest everyone watch it. It has the best sets, costumes and story I have ever seen on a television series. Not to mention the acting and characterization - I think its rare for movies to even achieve the level that Rome did. The production values are superb.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on December 01, 2007, 04:59:22 pm
Currently this town looks like an island of (relative) order in the sea of desolation. If this was the effect you wanted to achieve, then you have my congratulations for a job well done.

One thing I would really love to see is graffiti. We all know Roman cities had more than their fair share, and nothing says "collapsed civilization" like obscene messages on the walls.
Well the graffiti idea is really bad, and I mean it. Graffiti is usually done by kids who have too much spare time, instead of people who are struggling for survival.
I don't know. Historically, graffiti is done by the malcontent and the drunk, and It dates back to roman times. Should not be modern graffiti of course.

The television series "ROME" did a damn good job at recreating roman grafitti - I suggest that the artists watch the series if they need inspiration.

Hell, I suggest everyone watch it. It has the best sets, costumes and story I have ever seen on a television series. Not to mention the acting and characterization - I think its rare for movies to even achieve the level that Rome did. The production values are superb.

Good sugestion. It will be good for inspiration.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: roshan on December 01, 2007, 05:14:52 pm
The opening sequence of the series basically shows scenes of Roman streets, with the grafitti on the walls coming to life. Its quite interesting, because even after watching 15 or so episodes, I was still noticing new details in the sequence! Graffiti actually plays a role in the plot of the series - in one episode, Caesar dumps his mistress after his wife notices graffiti on the city walls depicting his relationship with her.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: VasikkA on December 03, 2007, 10:59:06 am
So, what, the walls in AoD will be covered with giant dong graffitis now? I found the set in Rome rather sterile; kinda like the one's you see in documentaries depicting a typical Roman 'street-view'. The set was also quite small(they kept showing the same plaza and alley over and over again). Without actually having lived during that time, I'd expect to see a dirtier and darker cityscape; after all, it's set in a post-apocalyptic environment. Beggars, filth, dead people and the like.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on December 16, 2007, 03:34:37 pm
I updated the first post with some shots of the market area in the Barracks District of Teron. :)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: cardtrick on December 16, 2007, 03:51:18 pm
Looks really good for the most part. I love the meander pattern along the roof and the moss on the front wall of the building in the middle top. Also really like the worn brick patches showing on the building on the right.

One thing, though. I think it looks a little too drab and brown. A few small spots of deep red or bright blue would do a lot for the overall balance of the scene. My suggestion: have a couple of small stalls set up for outdoor merchants. (Actually, I think that's what the canvass coverings on poles that you have are, right?) Any merchant anywhere, no matter how down-trodden and post-apocalyptic, is going to do his best to stand out and attract attention. At least a few of them would have dyed those cloth roofs red or blue, or painted a colorful sign to go in front of their stall, or something.

Or go back to my graffiti idea, and have some red text or symbols  scrawled along the side of one of the buildings.

I don't want a lot of that, but what you have here is too monochrome. It's effective at conveying the atmosphere you're trying for, but it's a little wearing to look at and not really realistic anyway.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: VonVentrue on December 16, 2007, 04:09:55 pm
These are some really good suggestions by Cardtrick.

The area looks great in overall - however, as far as stone paving is concerned, shouldn't some random stones be missing, perhaps (leaving behind concavities in the ground, for instance)? That would greatly improve the atmosphere and add to the 'apocalyptic/decadent' feel.

Please allow me to post a couple of pictures for reference...

(http://dqhall59.com/1st-cent-pavement.jpg)

(http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20061006/fallout_01.jpg)



Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on December 16, 2007, 04:16:12 pm
@Cardtrick: Great suggestion, especially about the merchant stands.

@VonVentrue: There are many random stones missing. You can see the dirt in their place.

EDIT: I see that you are suggesting something more extreme, but we would have to model the roads in a very different way. I believe that the main roads look fine as they are, but I will (and already have in some places) apply it to the small side roads (for example, the one between the two buildings in the second picture).


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on December 18, 2007, 07:39:34 pm
Updated the first post with an overview shot of the Barracks District (WIP). I hope that you like it!


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: cardtrick on December 18, 2007, 08:09:15 pm
Love it! Can't wait to see those streets with people.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on December 18, 2007, 08:58:18 pm
Needs to be tweaked. I like everything but the merchants guild building looks too modest and "humble". We need a palace-like, "we are rich, bitch!" building here, something that looks a bit out of place and clearly wasn't there originally. Something like this:



[attachment deleted to save space]


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Morbus on December 19, 2007, 06:20:15 am
Small notice: you are using gothic battlements. Those battlements are 2/3 of the wall. Roman battlements are 1/3. Only their width changes, though, the height is the same, of course. They don't have those small... huh... cracks for shooting arrows either. That's medieval. In the battlements, I mean. They have them on the walls, of course.

All I'm saying is, those walls are gothic, not roman. You just have to redo the battlements. The towers look good, as far as I know, the big house on the right seems quite roman-like. It's no villa at all, but it resembles them, and I find it quite nice to see (I don't think you intend to recreate exact roman architecture).

The trees are too close to the city... Wouldn't they have been cut down for fuel by now? Furthermore, should there be trees inside the walls? It's not logical (unless its a garden). OR unless they are there to provide shelter from the sun...

One thing I'd like to see is sidewalks. They are more than common in roman age... Medieval age dropped them, though... They often had protections too, above, to protect from the rain, in the most rich streets. I don't think they fit AoD though... But sidewalks should be there, if only to balance the roads a bit more (they look strange without them). The roofs are strange (tegulae and imbrecis are VERY heavy, the roofs are too extensive)... Are they supposed to be roman-like?

All in all, it looks good, but you should REALLY consider doing sidewalks and fixing those battlements.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on December 19, 2007, 08:21:31 am
Quote
Small notice: you are using gothic battlements. Those battlements are 2/3 of the wall. Roman battlements are 1/3. Only their width changes, though, the height is the same, of course. They don't have those small... huh... cracks for shooting arrows either. That's medieval. In the battlements, I mean. They have them on the walls, of course.

All I'm saying is, those walls are gothic, not roman. You just have to redo the battlements.

I have trouble seeing what are you talking about exactly. Can you post a picture pointing these battlements in a red circle? Thanks.

Quote
The trees are too close to the city... Wouldn't they have been cut down for fuel by now?

Don`t worry about them. I´ve added them for the picture only. That corner looked too empty.

Quote
Furthermore, should there be trees inside the walls? It's not logical (unless its a garden). OR unless they are there to provide shelter from the sun...

Quote
One thing I'd like to see is sidewalks. They are more than common in roman age... Medieval age dropped them, though... They often had protections too, above, to protect from the rain, in the most rich streets. I don't think they fit AoD though... But sidewalks should be there, if only to balance the roads a bit more (they look strange without them).

Teron is a small "country town", not completely civilized. I find it logical to have some trees here and there, when there are some open spaces, and not only in a "planned" plaza. As for the sidewalks, I don´t think they are necessary in this town. The roads are wide and there is not a lot of traffic in them. Why would people walk on a small sidewalk when they have a huge road for them? It´s a country town, things are a little more laid back.

But yes, we will have sidewalks in our more civilized towns.

Quote
The roofs are strange (tegulae and imbrecis are VERY heavy, the roofs are too extensive)... Are they supposed to be roman-like?

When you say that the tegulae and imbrecis are very heavy, you mean that there are lots of tiles? What exactly do you mean with too extensive?

This roofs in particular are not exactly "roman-like" ones, but with more of a country-house feeling, with some "celtic" style added. The palace district and another city will feature more roman-like buildings.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on December 19, 2007, 08:52:12 am
Quote
Small notice: you are using gothic battlements. Those battlements are 2/3 of the wall. Roman battlements are 1/3. Only their width changes, though, the height is the same, of course. They don't have those small... huh... cracks for shooting arrows either. That's medieval. In the battlements, I mean. They have them on the walls, of course.

All I'm saying is, those walls are gothic, not roman. You just have to redo the battlements.

I have trouble seeing what are you talking about exactly. Can you post a picture pointing these battlements in a red circle? Thanks.
Battlements - parapets on top of walls.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Morbus on December 19, 2007, 08:56:35 am
I have trouble seeing what are you talking about exactly. Can you post a picture pointing these battlements in a red circle? Thanks.
http://www.yesnet.yk.ca/schools/projects/middleages/defendingcastle/graphics/battlement.gif
These are gothic battlements (with the usual top structure for vertical shots). They are wider than the space between them. They usually have a narrow crack (?) for arrow shooting too, each second/third battlement.

http://www.travelsinireland.com/england/castle/battlement.jpg
Here's a good example of what AoD currently has. This is gothic. Not roman. You can see that merlons are bigger than crenels. Roman battlements are the precise opposite, the crenels are bigger than the merlons. I can't find a shot, they are very rare...

Don`t worry about them. I´ve added them for the picture only. That corner looked too empty.
I take it they don't from a closer perspective, so you won't have them ingame?

As for the sidewalks, I don´t think they are necessary in this town. The roads are wide and there is not a lot of traffic in them. Why would people walk on a small sidewalk when they have a huge road for them? It´s a country town, things are a little more laid back.
I'm just talking about what romans did. Now that you mention it, shouldn't secondary streets be made of dirt instead of cobblestone?

When you say that the tegulae and imbrecis are very heavy, you mean that there are lots of tiles? What exactly do you mean with too extensive?
I mean that REAL tegulae and imbrecis are EXTREMELY heavy. They couldn't have wide roofs because they couldn't stand their own weight. I'm not talking about the size of the tiles (tegulae had about 1x1m), I'm saying that, back then, in roman age, roofs couldn't be too large, they had to be supported by lots of wood and stuff like that, because they'd come down pretty quickly if they weren't. It doesn't really matter here. Roofs are nothing but a minor detail in RPGs :P

This roofs in particular are not exactly "roman-like" ones, but with more of a country-house feeling, with some "celtic" style added.
Huh... Celtic? No... """"""""""""""celtic""""""""""""""? Maybe... Celts didn't have tiled roofs (they used plants, grass and stuff) and they're houses were mostly round... The issue is MUCH more controversial though, but I'm not here for a history lesson. I don't really know what you mean by adding some "celtic" style...

The palace district and another city will feature more roman-like buildings.
Ok. Those are very easy to find concept art of :P My biggest issue is, still, the battlements... You can't have gothic walls in a roman like city can you?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on December 19, 2007, 09:16:11 am
http://www.travelsinireland.com/england/castle/battlement.jpg
Here's a good example of what AoD currently has. This is gothic. Not roman. You can see that merlons are bigger than crenels. Roman battlements are the precise opposite, the crenels are bigger than the merlons. I can't find a shot, they are very rare...
I'm not an expert and googled purely out of curiosity, but...

http://www.qlhs.org.uk/past-events/holidays/northumbria-2005/hadrians/slides/Birdoswold%20Roman%20Fort.jpeg
http://sedulia.blogs.com/photos/paris/entrance_to_saalfurt_roman_fort.JPG
http://www.lincoln-live.co.uk/castle.gif
http://i.pbase.com/t6/28/553528/4/69695492.BuSOzJ1W.jpg


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on December 19, 2007, 09:22:03 am
Quote
Huh... Celtic? No... """"""""""""""celtic""""""""""""""? Maybe... Celts didn't have tiled roofs (they used plants, grass and stuff) and they're houses were mostly round... The issue is MUCH more controversial though, but I'm not here for a history lesson. I don't really know what you mean by adding some "celtic" style...

lol

Yeah, totally missed the point there. If I can find a picture there of what I meant, I´ll post it. I don´t know why "celtic" came to mind. :)

Quote
I'm just talking about what romans did. Now that you mention it, shouldn't secondary streets be made of dirt instead of cobblestone?

The thing is that we have some engine limitations that prevents us from doing something like that. So we had to settle for doing a simple 3D model for the roads, using cobblestone, as they can be easily placed over the game terrain.

Quote
I take it they don't from a closer perspective, so you won't have them ingame?

You won´t be able to see that area ingame.

Quote
My biggest issue is, still, the battlements... You can't have gothic walls in a roman like city can you?

Cool, now I see what you meant. :)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Morbus on December 19, 2007, 09:26:41 am
1 - gothic, so clearly gothic. You see that structure in the top of the tower? That "line" all around it, with those little support stone things under it? That structure is for vertical shots. Medieval only.

2 - Yeah, those are roman. Very nice :)

3 - Gothic, of course. Very clear. Round towers are medieval only, and don't even exist in less developed countries. Romans have square towers only, that's a given. In addition to that, look at the battlements. Gothic. Again, there's that structure I talked about earlier (poorer castles don't have them because it's expensive to build, so they only have some small support stones in the upper wall of the towers and walls where they mounted wooden structures, very well known here in Portugal. There's also a few of them in France. It's a beautiful castle.

4 - That's roman, of course. The shot's taken from inside the walls, I think. You can see the houses and stuff, although it's not uncommon for roman settlements to have houses (even rich houses) outside the walls either. The razed house to the right is probably a villa, from what can be seen. Nice site.

The thing is that we have some engine limitations that prevents us from doing something like that. So we had to settle for doing a simple 3D model for the roads, using cobblestone, as they can be easily placed over the game terrain.
Why not cut that 3D model in some places and let the ground be shown? Or why not model the dirt roads in that very 3D model? Or different models even... I can't understand how that's a limitation.

You won´t be able to see that area ingame.
Oh, I see. I thought you were referring to the trees inside the walls. I know I can't see them outside :P

Cool, now I see what you meant. :)
Will you fix it, then?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on December 19, 2007, 09:30:05 am
Umph, I can´t see number 4. :(


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Morbus on December 19, 2007, 09:31:15 am
Umph, I can´t see number 4. :(
Just refresh the "forbidden" page you get. Or enter the url again. I can see them after that with FireFox.

(Edited my post above)

:EDIT:
Yep, their hotlink protection is stupid. If you enter the url in the same window you are seeing one of their pages (including their 403 forbidden page) you are able to see the pic.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on December 19, 2007, 09:51:37 am
Quote
Why not cut that 3D model in some places and let the ground be shown? Or why not model the dirt roads in that very 3D model?

Cutting is not really an option because the transition would have to be smooth. I´ve removed some cobblestones through texture, showing some dirt, though.

Same goes for the borders of the dirt road, you need a smooth transition from the dirt of the road to the ground of the game engine. And the brush to paint the ground is too big to make some defined dirt roads through terrain texturing. With the roads is easier since they have a nice border that shows where they end, and can afford to look completely different that the surrounding ground.

And besides, this is the most developed part of the town, so I believe it looks good to have a couple of cobblestone roads. And then we have the small "passages" with some loose stones marking them.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Morbus on December 19, 2007, 09:55:53 am
Sure. One other thing about the battlements, though (you're going to change them, right?). Don't make them triangle shaped like those in the screenshots. Roman battlements are square shaped, as in the pics.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on December 19, 2007, 10:01:40 am
The ones above the barracks are ok, right?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Morbus on December 19, 2007, 10:16:54 am
I'm sorry but no... Pretty much every battlement I see in AoD's pics is a gothic battlement. They call it "lying battlement", because they give they impression they are lying, and not standing upright as roman (and high medieval, pre-gothic) battlements were. As long as there are battlements what are wider than they are taller, there'll be a gothic feel to the wall/building. I'm afraid you'll have to redo them all if you want them to match the roman style...


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on December 19, 2007, 10:21:43 am
Well, it's a Roman-inspired game, not an uber-accurate historical simulator called Life in Ancient Rome! Having said that, if we have time, we'll tweak the battlements. Thanks.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Sleet on December 19, 2007, 10:37:11 am
Well, it's a Roman-inspired game, not an uber-accurate historical simulator called Life in Ancient Rome! Having said that, if we have time, we'll tweak the battlements. Thanks.
For that go play: Rome Total War :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome:_Total_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome:_Total_War)
(http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/article/551/551582/rome-total-war-20040927110940049.jpg)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on December 19, 2007, 10:40:12 am
Well, if you want to go for realism, add the mod Rome: Total Realism :)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Sleet on December 19, 2007, 10:50:48 am
Well, if you want to go for realism, add the mod Rome: Total Realism :)
Or how about SIMS: Totally Roman!
 ;)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: cardtrick on December 19, 2007, 11:14:08 am
Er . . . at this point I'd like to chime in and say that I could not, in any way, under any circumstances, possibly care less about the battlements.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: galsiah on December 19, 2007, 12:24:37 pm
...roman style...
The important thing is to have a consistent, coherent style. It doesn't necessarily need to bear any resemblance to a roman style. The setting is "inspired by" the fall of the roman empire - it could be a Sci-Fi setting and fit that description.
That's not to say that knowledge of roman stuff, and connected suggestions, couldn't be useful - since AoD does have a romanlike style. However, I think it'd be most useful if argued from a practical standpoint of coherence - i.e. AoD shares X with Rome, Y is related to X, so it's likely that Y would share roman qualities. The setting ought to make sense, and be internally consistent. That doesn't need to mean that every aspect mirrors roman design - only where the root causes of that roman design are present in the AoD setting too.

That said, I'm not going to care a lot either way.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Morbus on December 19, 2007, 02:43:17 pm
Well, it's a Roman-inspired game, not an uber-accurate historical simulator called Life in Ancient Rome! Having said that, if we have time, we'll tweak the battlements. Thanks.
I know that. I was just saying.

Er . . . at this point I'd like to chime in and say that I could not, in any way, under any circumstances, possibly care less about the battlements.
You couldn't, but I can. Because I look at those walls and I see medieval age... But it's not important when compared to other things, of course. Besides, it's probably easily moddable.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Gilliatt on December 23, 2007, 04:19:46 am
You are doing a wonderful job Oscar. The improvement is awesome.

I think some people focus too much on the Roman style. (And I am not necessarily pointing at you Morbus, I think many have, somehow, a similar feeling.) As Vince said, it is inspired by the Roman Empire, so you should not be afraid to be creative, you are not doing a history class software. I agree with Galsiah, consistency and coherence are the important elements here, not historical accuracy.

I'd like to point out that when the Romans invaded "new" regions, they did not put everything to the ground and rebuilt it the "Roman way". Many cities of the Roman Empire were not "Roman" at all. Athens did not became suddenly a Rome replica. Even in Italy, the urban and rural regions did not look alike. So even if you were trying to give an extremely accurate feeling to your locations, none of them would look exactly the same and none of them would have the exact same style and feeling. So I think it is pointless to ask you to redo "Rome" or another Roman city reproduction since none of the action will actually take place in the real "Rome", "Actium" or "Constantinople", to name a few.

You guys are doing imaginary locations, so some parts of them should come from your imaginations.

Of course, you understand that I am not suggesting that you suddenly stop looking at historical pictures or facts to get some inspiration. You already know how much they can inspire every artist and help you give us a more coherent world.

Keep up the good work!


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Scott on January 08, 2008, 11:08:15 am
Regarding the Roman structures debate, I assisted with editing (a lot) and porting 3D models to assist some graduate archaeology students to recreate in 3D the Roman city of Antioch.  Basically, they traveled to the ruins in Turkey, took measurements and photos, then accurately modeled 6 major structures (temples, gates, coliseum, aqueduct) and the overall shape of the site.  The other buildings are generic filler for houses.

Images:  http://www-personal.umich.edu/~hamms/portfolio/interactive/antioch.html

The images only show a couple of buildings, however with a freely available web viewer, you can fly around the entire city in realtime 3D, and get a closer look at anything you want:

http://um3d.dc.umich.edu/software/virtools/index.html


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on January 08, 2008, 11:14:02 am
Looks pretty damn good, thanks.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Yellow on January 09, 2008, 01:44:36 pm
RELEASE THE DAMN GAME


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Makabi on January 09, 2008, 11:21:10 pm
I take it you don't mind the fact that it will be buggy and unpolished as long as you get it? whatever you think, demanding will not make Iron Tower release it sooner.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Claw on January 10, 2008, 09:37:27 am
Exactly. It's called Iron Tower for a reason. Our stalwart Elder has decided to make polishing the game his first priority, and he'll release the game once he's done the job.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Mamon on January 15, 2008, 07:09:08 pm
2/3 of the houses can't be entered?  Sorry, but that's way too much filler.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: cardtrick on January 15, 2008, 07:18:25 pm
2/3 of the houses can't be entered?  Sorry, but that's way too much filler.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Not being able to enter a house is so much better than finding nothing interesting inside (ala NWN, BG2, The Witcher), which gets very frustrating for completionists like me who feel the need to go everywhere that my character can. Just having the houses there for aesthetics and authenticity is perfectly reasonable.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: TheLostOne on January 16, 2008, 07:44:59 am
VD, just a thought, but have you considered possibly making the filler houses interactable depending on your level of lockpick/stealing?  You wouldn't even have to create the area inside, just give a floater or window text saying, "You slip in through the window/door/balcony and quickly strip the house of valuables."  You gain X gold.

Instead of straight money, you could give some valuables that a burgler would tend to find (candlesticks, expensive plateware, crystal glasses) and the only place to sell them would be through a fence.

Different houses could have different skill requirements and rewards.  Houses that are well guarded for example could give you a message, "You don't think you're up for this task yet" or "Maybe a more experienced padfoot would have more luck."

You could do interesting things with triggers this way also if you wanted to.  If you fence enough goods you get recognition in the thieves guild.  Maybe have one fence that's either unsanctioned by or cheating the thieves guild, but gives more cash since he's not having to give a percentage to the guild.  If you do this too much you could have the guild come after you or hire some "ferrymen" to send you a message.

Some of the houses could have other triggers, like if you rob enough houses from the same faction.  They could send their own people or the theives guild themselves could warn you to dial it back some since you're throwing the balance.

Anyway, just something I was toying with when thinking of how to do something with all the non-enterable houses.  What do you think?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on January 16, 2008, 08:27:48 am
VD, just a thought, but have you considered possibly making the filler houses interactable depending on your level of lockpick/stealing?  You wouldn't even have to create the area inside, just give a floater or window text saying, "You slip in through the window/door/balcony and quickly strip the house of valuables."  You gain X gold.

Instead of straight money, you could give some valuables that a burgler would tend to find (candlesticks, expensive plateware, crystal glasses) and the only place to sell them would be through a fence.

Different houses could have different skill requirements and rewards.  Houses that are well guarded for example could give you a message, "You don't think you're up for this task yet" or "Maybe a more experienced padfoot would have more luck."

You could do interesting things with triggers this way also if you wanted to.  If you fence enough goods you get recognition in the thieves guild.  Maybe have one fence that's either unsanctioned by or cheating the thieves guild, but gives more cash since he's not having to give a percentage to the guild.  If you do this too much you could have the guild come after you or hire some "ferrymen" to send you a message.

Some of the houses could have other triggers, like if you rob enough houses from the same faction.  They could send their own people or the theives guild themselves could warn you to dial it back some since you're throwing the balance.

Anyway, just something I was toying with when thinking of how to do something with all the non-enterable houses.  What do you think?

I like this idea. Why not even make it into mini text adventures?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: star on January 16, 2008, 09:29:43 am
yeah, sounds like a nice idea. but it has to have some drawbacks, people sending their guards after you like you mentioned or something. otherwise all the "emtpy" houses just become treasure chests along the road..


also, add some surprises, like:

"You sneak into the house just to suddenly get the feeling that someone else is here. Before you can react in any way, something emerges from the shadows and attacks you."


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: TheLostOne on January 16, 2008, 10:02:49 am
Well I wouldn't mind a few being suprises, or if you rob the wrong house or too many a trap is set or you're caught by guards, but the whole point is to give something without having to model too many interiors so I don't think combat inside one of the houses would be a good idea unless it's one already modeled.

Also, most houses shouldn't have much of value, and the true jackpot/"treasure chest" ones should require a really high lockpick and/or steal skill.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on January 16, 2008, 10:31:25 am
2/3 of the houses can't be entered?  Sorry, but that's way too much filler.
The alternative is having towns that look like small camps.

VD, just a thought, but have you considered possibly making the filler houses interactable depending on your level of lockpick/stealing?  You wouldn't even have to create the area inside, just give a floater or window text saying, "You slip in through the window/door/balcony and quickly strip the house of valuables."  You gain X gold.
Yes, we thought about it, but then it becomes a "click on every building to get random loot" boring routine. 


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Tuomas on January 16, 2008, 12:44:16 pm
You wouldn't have to provide the options for every building. Some of the houses might not be worth the effort of breaking into as they might be poor, too guarded, too close to a patrolling guard, have people inside, seem too ordinary or flagged as the guild as places you shouldn't steal from (for whatever reason)... etc.

On the other hand some particular houses might catch the PC's interest and he could consider them worthwile targets. You could give the houses visual clues that mark them as special (in the "click me!!" sense).


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Claw on January 16, 2008, 05:40:08 pm
Ideally, all houses would be fully modelled and interactive. We'll accept filler text like in RoA instead, but static filler houses with doors that are just painted on are unsatisfying. It's like running against an invisible wall at the border of a map.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: cardtrick on January 16, 2008, 06:19:31 pm
Ideally, all houses would be fully modelled and interactive. We'll accept filler text like in RoA instead, but static filler houses with doors that are just painted on are unsatisfying. It's like running against an invisible wall at the border of a map.

What's wrong with running against an invisible wall at the border of a map? The devs only have a limited amount of time. They can't make each house fully modeled and interactive, and neither can they make maps of infinite size. I'd much prefer that they concentrate on making the content that they do have as good as possible than on adding more and more content that is not necessary. Immersion should be secondary to fun. Wading through empty house after empty house in order to find the few with interesting NPCs or loot is not fun. For that matter, neither is clicking on houses to get text telling you that you've looted some gold but with no risk or interactivity -- that just means the city is filled with house-shaped chests and barrels, and who really wants to play NWN again?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on January 16, 2008, 09:59:33 pm
Ideally In my opinion, all houses would be fully modelled and interactive. We'll accept filler text like in RoA instead, but static filler houses with doors that are just painted on are unsatisfying. It's like running against an invisible wall at the border of a map.
Fixed.

In *my* opinion, going into every purposeless house and checking every chest and drawer for loot sucks. It adds nothing to gameplay (other than a "checking all house in every town" chore).


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Claw on January 16, 2008, 11:06:03 pm
Everything I say is my opinion. I hardly ever use expressions like "imo" or similar because I consider them superfluous.
If I start stating facts, I'll let you know.

PS: And no, imo does not replace "ideally" in that sentance.

PPS: Loot? I wasn't talking about loot.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: CandyStick on January 17, 2008, 12:48:27 am
The fewer "fluff" enterable houses, the better. I made a thread about this a while ago, and most people seem to agree on that aspect. I guess I can see the appeal of being able to steal from all the houses, but this isn't a theiving simulator, it's an rpg, you use your characters skills to steal, not your personal skill, and as such the act of theft from generic houses isn't really that interesting without well design scenarios, which I belive Iron Tower is focusing on (as seen in Let's Play AOD thread). Oh, and the houses thread I mentioned earlier is here: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=91.0


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Scott on January 17, 2008, 12:30:01 pm
I know it's been up for 6 weeks, but I'd like to comment on the page 1 image finalgdgateyf6.jpg, of the gate (portcullis?) made of sharpened logs:

Overall, it looks great --it's nice that you varied the bark colors-- but the logs are much too sharp on the bottom, presuming this gate is opened and closed on a regular basis.  If they're sharp, there should be corresponding holes in the pavement below, or else they should be blunted from use.  In either case, the raw wood showing at the bottom should be dirty.  It would nicely contrast the clean, sharp spikes above too.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on January 17, 2008, 01:22:09 pm
I know it's been up for 6 weeks, but I'd like to comment on the page 1 image finalgdgateyf6.jpg, of the gate (portcullis?) made of sharpened logs:

Overall, it looks great --it's nice that you varied the bark colors-- but the logs are much too sharp on the bottom, presuming this gate is opened and closed on a regular basis.  If they're sharp, there should be corresponding holes in the pavement below, or else they should be blunted from use.  In either case, the raw wood showing at the bottom should be dirty.  It would nicely contrast the clean, sharp spikes above too.

I´ll keep this in mind. Thanks! :)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on January 18, 2008, 12:58:55 pm
Yes, we thought about it, but then it becomes a "click on every building to get random loot" boring routine. 
Only if you make it boring. I thought you like text adventures? I agree it's probably a side issue and maybe too involved to include, but it would seem the perfect spot to include such a feature. I think if you have a set of maybe 10 little text adventures, with about three layers of choices, and plenty skill checks, you'd get pretty good value for effort.



Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on January 18, 2008, 06:34:47 pm
I think it all depends on the type of game you are making. If it's a quest focused game, with a tight narrative experience, making all "fluff" house enterable dilutes the experience, as it usually becomes a time sink where the player clicks every door to see if there is a quest or something interesting waiting for them. Besides, it gets away from the focus of the game, which is interesting quests and narrative. Instead, making only some houses enterable, you know that something worthwhile is waiting for you there. See MotB, for example.

But I believe that making all houses enterable, or at least interactive through text adventure, is great for a sandbox style RPG. I would almost consider it a must, since these type of games relies on making the world as open as possible, and the gameplay is based around that premise. I would certainly like to play a game where this kind of interaction is the center of the game, with dozens of different text adventures that are reactive to your actions, instead of making a half-assed implementation in a game that doesn´t need it.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on January 18, 2008, 08:16:37 pm
Only if you make it boring. I thought you like text adventures? I agree it's probably a side issue and maybe too involved to include, but it would seem the perfect spot to include such a feature. I think if you have a set of maybe 10 little text adventures, with about three layers of choices, and plenty skill checks, you'd get pretty good value for effort.
Well, in my opinion, having repeating text adventures is worse than not having them at all.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on January 19, 2008, 05:55:03 am
Only if you make it boring. I thought you like text adventures? I agree it's probably a side issue and maybe too involved to include, but it would seem the perfect spot to include such a feature. I think if you have a set of maybe 10 little text adventures, with about three layers of choices, and plenty skill checks, you'd get pretty good value for effort.
Well, in my opinion, having repeating text adventures is worse than not having them at all.
Well, maybe it simply doesnt fit your design, like Oscar says. But can't repetition be avoided? How many such houses are there, and how many such adventures would have to be made to make it non-repetitive or reducing repetion to a minimum? And you can cheat, too. I mean, assume 50% of the time you just get a message "The house contains nothing of value", but a failed skillcheck may mean you encounter the town guard outside. For the rest you do something more interesting.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Claw on January 19, 2008, 01:42:59 pm
What's wrong with running against an invisible wall at the border of a map?
Uh, it reminds me that I am inside a virtual box and that the landscape in the distance and the sky are drawn onto sides of this box. There are no houses. There are no people.
If that's ok, then why not have a question mark hovering above quest givers as well? Don't answer that.

It's this thing, what do people call it? Ah right, immersion was the word. That's what gets utterly destroyed when I run against an invisible wall or notice that a door is just a texture.

I sure appreciated that in RoA, there was at least a message box when I tried to open the door to a house that wasn't relevant. But that was like, over ten years ago. I wouldn't mind seeing games going a (few) step(s) further.
I don't care about the distinction between sandbox and other RPGs either.


Quote
The devs only have a limited amount of time.
The world would be a better place if everyone who makes a trivial statement gets punched in the face immediately.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: cardtrick on January 19, 2008, 01:54:05 pm
The world would also be a better place if people let go of Bethesda's damn "immersion" buzzword and remembered that a game is a game and there's no way you're going to forget that -- you're holding a mouse, typing on a keyboard, looking at a monitor (how's that for a trivial statement?).


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: JuJu on January 20, 2008, 02:41:19 pm
Just make filler houses and also the ones which you have no reason to visit yet spawn a message "You have no reason to go there". I hate that the games let and even promote PC's to barge into NPC's houses uninvited and and ask: "Do you have quests? Do you have loot?"

P.S. Cardtrick, I pity you, for you have no imagination!


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: cardtrick on January 20, 2008, 03:08:50 pm
P.S. Cardtrick, I pity you, for you have no imagination!

I have no imagination? I'm perfectly content to imagine the people living behind closed doors. I don't have to be able to interact with each house to imagine my character in a populated city. Similarly, I'm content with area maps of a limited size (i.e., invisible walls) and can imagine my character inhabiting a limitless world. I care about story, characters, writing, and gameplay -- not the trivialities that make up "immersion."


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Gilliatt on January 20, 2008, 10:52:22 pm
I am one of those who prefer to have filler houses then to be able to enter every house. I think a game should be focused on things more interesting then visiting houses (like story, quests, character interaction, etc.) Unless, of course, if it is a simulation where your main character is a real estate seller.

That said, everyone is looking for different things in a game. I had a conversation with a friend about how important weapon customization was. To him, it was very important, it was part of the "role-play", when to me, it was very secondary since I can be satisfied with a traditionnal helm. I don't care if I cannot make my character look like a Nazgul. While it is true that I am the one playing that character, I am not the one who invented it, that's the developper who did that. I think the analogy can fit with the subject of house fillers. Some people want to be able to interact with everything, while me, and others, want to be able to interact with what the developpers decided was worth interacting with. What I ask of a developper is to give me something of quality that I can enjoy in a world he created and developped, not to give me total freedom.

I am not saying my position is the best, but I think many share it.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: TheLostOne on January 21, 2008, 09:01:51 am
The world would also be a better place if people let go of Bethesda's damn "immersion" buzzword and remembered that a game is a game and there's no way you're going to forget that -- you're holding a mouse, typing on a keyboard, looking at a monitor (how's that for a trivial statement?).

Umm... Just because "immershun" now carries the same connotation as soil erosion at the codex doesn't make it a negligible factor of games.  Bethesda used that shit do describe everything under the sun, but mainly used it for first person perspective.

We're all fairly intelligent people.  We know that this is horseshit and that you can have good or shitty immersion in a game with first person, isometric or even fucking VR.  It's got a lot more to do with art design, writing, and gameplay mechanics than it does with camera angle.

So please, try to drop the Oblivion feud for a bit when discussing this game, because blacklisting every word in the English language that Bethesda corrupts into hypetalk is just a waste of time, and it limits our ability to communicate effectively about this game.


Back on topic, I agree that invisible walls are somewhat immersion breakers but filler that's ultra repetitive is just as bad.  Why not have some variety in the text descriptions of buildings you cannot enter instead of just "You have no business here" why not stuff like "You smell some cooking inside.  Considering this  part of town, you try not to imagine what it could be." and "A baby's is squalling amidst the cacaphony of noise coming from this house. For the thousanth time, you are thankful for bachelorhood." 

Doesn't need to be humorous.  Been replaying Escape from Monkey Island so it's got me thinking in that vein.  Descriptions in that game are pure genius.  "Vote Govener Marley.  When there's only one candidate, there's only one choice."  lol


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Scott on January 21, 2008, 09:23:09 am
I don't know why I'm going to say anything on this topic, BUT:
Is it "realistic" for someone, thief or otherwise, to walk around town randomly trying front doors to see if maybe he can score some loot?

In The Witcher, buildings have entrances and many of them are locked.  Sometimes these doors are opened later in a plot-related event, sometimes not.  There is no lock-picking.  The PC in this game is not a thief, it is not his mission in life, and presumably he'd be treading on some thin ice if he randomly entered domiciles and stole sh*t.

In the same vein, a real thief and member of the guild, ALSO wouldn't be looting every single structure in view, and it's just not worth the expenditure of time and effort to create "realistic" consequences (ie. getting hunted down and annihilated) by guards for every ridiculous, "unrealistic", and non-role-playing possibility.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: TheLostOne on January 21, 2008, 09:52:34 am
It's not about being able to loot the whole world, its about choice or the illusion of choice.

Maybe there's not a role playing reason for checking out the house, but if you limit the player to what you define as his character, you're going to end up railroading them.  A large part of RPGs are not "in character".  What kind of loon runs around talking to everyone he sees, for instance? 

Besides if you design the game around the player acting "in character" you'll need to outhink the player, how he's roleplaying his character.  Say I'm a grifter.  I might want to check out some random houses to scope out possible con targets, or maybe I just want to disguise myself and do some door to door salesman act with some miracle cures or charms garaunteed to keep rats away.

Obviously you can't cater to every possible role playing scenario, which is the whole reason not every house is enterable and loaded with quests NOT because it's out of character to enter them.  If you're going the FO route and imitating the freedom combined with consequence of PNP, then you can't assume there will never be an IC reason to click on those houses.  Your job is that of a virtual DM and you need to facilitate roleplay options to the best of your ability.  For time/resource reasons it makes sense not to have every house enterable, but at least have some sort of feedback to the player instead of static artwork or a repeated DO NOT ENTER blurb. 

Imagine telling your DM "I want to knock on this door and find out some news about the town if possible" and he says, "You have no reason to go there."  Uh....

That's why I suggested either the text adventure stuff or some flavor text.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Gilliatt on January 21, 2008, 04:55:47 pm
@ TheLostOne: I don't necessarily disagree with you and to be honest there are some games, like Baldur's Gate (where the doors are sometimes hard to find), in which I would have appreciated some text telling me the house is a filler instead of trying numerous times to find where they put the entrance.

But in all honesty, I don't really see a big difference in having a filler house with a text and having one without text. When it is easy to see that the door you're trying to open won't open, I can easily see that I have no business there. I don't need a DM to tell me. AoD is not a PnP RPG, it does not need to tell us everything if we can see it with our own eyes.

The idea of having some text is not bad, but I won't mind at all if the Iron Tower team want to put their efforts somewhere else, because to me it is not something important.

@ general: About freedom and role play: When I play a game, I am not asking the developpers to make me able to do everything I want. Role-playing does not necessarily equals doing everything you want. The DM takes lots of decision for us. When we play VtM: Bloodlines for exemple, we don't choose to play a vampire, we have to. There are many things in a RPG that we do not decide. The setting is one of them. We sure can make some suggestions to help them make a better game, but the final decision is theirs.

Personally, I hate crafting systems, I don't like the fact that my character could be a better craftsman than someone who did this all is life and studied the thing. I think the best objects should be made by a craftsman who owns is shop or forge. But hey, many people love crafting and Vince seems to love it too. So I leave the decision to him/them, because this is not something that could ruin the game, and because it is not a mistake, it is just a matter of preference. I think before insisting on something, we should take time to consider if it is an improvement or just a preference. There is a difference between saying "I prefer this." and saying "It should be like this." (I hope this does not sound like I am condescending, because I am not. I am just giving my POV.)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: TheLostOne on January 22, 2008, 07:55:17 am
Personally, I hate crafting systems, I don't like the fact that my character could be a better craftsman than someone who did this all is life and studied the thing.

Does it make any less sense than being a sword master, or grand magus by the end of a few months or so of in game time?

People just like the idea of becoming a great craftsmen as an alternative to being a great warrior.  It just allows for more role playing options, although admittedly most games with crafting don't take advantage of that possibility well enough.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on January 22, 2008, 01:12:57 pm
Personally, I hate crafting systems, I don't like the fact that my character could be a better craftsman than someone who did this all is life and studied the thing.
To become a truly great smith in AoD you'd have to drop more than 200 points into it, which is a lot.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: jeansberg on January 22, 2008, 02:59:23 pm
Yeah. It's not like in d&d where it just takes the equivalent of a few college credits.  lol


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Gilliatt on January 22, 2008, 03:56:00 pm
@TheLostOne, although it is not realistic to become a master swordsman in such a little period, I think it still makes a little more sense since you have practiced your sword skills during the fighting you took. I have yet to see a RPG where you go to the forge everyday to practice your crafting skills. Anyway my point was not to try to convince people that crafting is a bad thing, I was trying to say that it is not because I don't like it that I should try to convince the developpers to abandon the idea in their game.

@Vince, my point was that everyone should concentrate on suggesting you how to perfect your game, not to try to convince you that it should have everyting he/she likes and exclude everyting he/she doesn't like. That's why I talked about crafting - to give an exemple of something I don't like, but that others might do - and then insisted on saying that I would not try to convince you to drop the idea just because my "little important self" does not enjoy it. So I was not trying in any way to convince you to drop it. To give another exemple, it is not because I never invest points in pick pocketing that others don't do it. In other words, my point was that having filler houses or being able to search every one of them is a matter of preference, not a matter of good or poor game design (just like having a crafting skill or not is a matter of preference).

Once again, I want to point out that I am not being condescending. English is not my mother tongue and I lack the vocabulary to clearly qualify what I am trying to say. There are way too many litterate and intelligent people on this board for me to try to lecture them.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on January 23, 2008, 05:00:38 am
Doing something with the filler houses would to me be one of those little things that show polish. It would show people, that yeah, they couldn't possibly make all those houses enterable, but they did spend some time on what theses houses are, and thought about my desire to enter them (and people playing a thief might rightfully have that desire). No, it is not important, but it is a nice opportunity.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: star on January 23, 2008, 08:33:23 pm
Why not have some variety in the text descriptions of buildings you cannot enter instead of just "You have no business here" why not stuff like "You smell some cooking inside.  Considering this  part of town, you try not to imagine what it could be." and "A baby's is squalling amidst the cacaphony of noise coming from this house. For the thousanth time, you are thankful for bachelorhood." 


Will you consider this suggestion? Because with very little work (just a few lines of writing) you are able to add a lot of atmosphere, history and general "life" to your towns..


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on January 23, 2008, 09:33:29 pm
Sure, we'll consider it. Some help wouldn't hurt either.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Gilliatt on January 23, 2008, 09:34:34 pm
Doing something with the filler houses would to me be one of those little things that show polish. It would show people, that yeah, they couldn't possibly make all those houses enterable, but they did spend some time on what theses houses are, and thought about my desire to enter them (and people playing a thief might rightfully have that desire). No, it is not important, but it is a nice opportunity.

To me, the simple fact of having filler houses instead of villages with 5-6 houses is a sign of polish. I wonder why some people cannot accept filler houses when I have never seen anyone complain that he/she cannot climb every tree in the landscape.

That said, I am not trying to argue with you, it is not because we don't have the same opinion or the same preferences that you are wrong. It is just a different way to see things. The idea of having a text when you want to enter houses that are fillers can be, in fact, a good idea. I just wanted to point out to some people that it is not mandatory.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Priapist on January 24, 2008, 03:45:10 am
Sure, we'll consider it. Some help wouldn't hurt either.

A few quick ones for poor dwellings:

"The door is barely hanging on hinges which in turn are barely hanging from the wall. A quick peek through the gaps confirms your suspicion that such a dwelling contains nothing of interest."

"The front door sways and bangs in even the gentlest breeze. Anyone who might live here has nothing to lose - and nothing to offer."

"Looking through the half-open door into the putrid squalor within assures you there is nothing to gain from venturing further - except maybe foul disease."

"With an ear to the door you listen to the sounds within - an argument over a scrap of bread. Such abject povery is best left to itself."

"A front door eaten nearly through by dry rot can barely conceal the bare and musty interior. There's clearly nothing to gain from invading what little privacy the inhabitants have left."



Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: star on January 24, 2008, 04:41:59 am
"You hear a dog barking inside."

"You hear children playing. Memories from your own childhood arise and you quickly step back."

"Several small symbols are marking this door. You have no idea what they mean."

"After a few minutes of careful observation you come to the conclusion that there is nothing special about this house."

"You smell something tasty inside, but asking for food is beneath your dignity."

"This is an exceptionally well crafted door."

"Maybe one day this could be your house. You like it."

"A old man is watching you through the window."


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on January 24, 2008, 06:24:26 am
Sure, we'll consider it. Some help wouldn't hurt either.

For the "better parts of town:"

I think these would work if randomized.


A big dog barking on the other side of the door makes you jump. You decide to leave.

Your knock is greeted by hysteric barking. But nobody opens the door.

At your knock, the door opens a crack, and you hear a whisper. “Love? Come inside, qui...”. As the person inside recognizes the mistake, the door is quickly shut again.

You hear laughter, voices, and music inside. There must be a celebration going on inside. Too bad you were not invited.

As you approach you hear raised voices inside. Something crashes to the floor. This is clearly not a situation you want to meddle in.

As you raise your hand to knock at the door, you hear a gruff male voice inside, followed by shrill curses from a woman. Some piece of tableware shatters on the door. You leave quickly.

As you approach you see the curtains move in one of the windows. However there is no answer to your knock.

As you approach, a window opens. “We don’t want any peddlers here. Move on!”

You listen at the door. There are sounds of lovemaking clearly audible inside. Not a good time for a surprise visit from a stranger.

A baby is wailing inside. Maybe this is a bad time for a visit.

A child is screaming inside, clearly getting a beating. You decide that there are better things to do than to enter here.

As you knock you hear quick footsteps and a happy voice inside: “Finally! We thought you wouldn’t come any m... Who are you!”. The door slams shut again.

A window opens. “Are you delivering the wine? No? Then what do you want here?”

“No, we don’t need anything!”

There are voices inside, and it sounds like something heavy is being moved, but your knock on the door is ignored.

You can hear a man inside, murmuring as if in prayer. He does not react to your repeated knocks on the door.

The smell of cooking and clattering of dishes indicate that the people inside are having their meal. You are sure they would not appreciate to be disturbed.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: galsiah on January 24, 2008, 04:24:37 pm
Some good stuff. I think there should be more where you see/hear little immediate activity though. Generally you don't walk down a street and hear children, babies, fights, arguments, lovemaking, abortive welcomes, accusations and insults - most of the time you get nothing but silence and a locked door.
The ones proposed are fine, but I think there ought to be more of a weighting towards uneventful descriptions - preferably a variety of uneventful, yet interesting, descriptions.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: cardtrick on January 24, 2008, 07:52:42 pm
Wow. I know I kind of argued against this, but I guess that may have been mostly the sharp despair that occasionally grips me at the thought of feature creep delaying AoD indefinitely. Anyway, some great suggestions here, and if this isn't a great deal of work to implement then I do think it's quite nice. Unsurprisingly, I have a few comments . . .

A few quick ones for poor dwellings:

All of these are awesome.

"You hear children playing. Memories from your own childhood arise and you quickly step back."
Quote
"You smell something tasty inside, but asking for food is beneath your dignity."
Quote
"Maybe one day this could be your house. You like it."

I like your other suggestions, which are simple and to the point, yet evocative. However, I really dislike that the three I quoted above tells me things about how my character is feeling that may or may not be true depending on the character I have created. The first one is at least sort of ambiguous (it's not totally clear whether you're stepping back because you're nostalgic for your happy childhood or in revulsion at reminders of your miserable childhood), but the other two are quite limiting. Especially in the second case -- who says my character isn't a poor beggar? Who says he has any dignity at all?

For the "better parts of town:"

These are all great, although I do feel like "Too bad you were not invited" assumes that your character is sociable and both "You are sure they would not appreciate to be disturbed" and "Not a good time for a surprise visit from a stranger" assumes the he's courteous. I would eliminate just those parts of those lines. That said, I really do like these suggestions, with the one caveat being . . .

The ones proposed are fine, but I think there ought to be more of a weighting towards uneventful descriptions - preferably a variety of uneventful, yet interesting, descriptions.

Excellent point.

(Maybe I'll post some suggestions of my own later, especially if Vince confirms that this is going to be implemented and asks for more suggestions.)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on January 24, 2008, 08:16:36 pm
Awesome stuff. It will be an honor and a privilege to use those in the game.

:salute:


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Gilliatt on January 24, 2008, 09:09:09 pm
Wow! Some of your suggestions are excellent! I came up with some myself, but most of them are not worthy of what you guys have proposed, so I won't list them all.

Here are some of them: (Please keep in mind that English is not my native tongue, but I think you could work around them.)

You hear dogs barking and wisely abandon the idea of breaking in.

You would need to smash the door or break a window to get in. You prefer not to draw too much attention.

There are way too many people inside for you to get in unnoticed and noone answers when you knock. Looks like they don't wan't visitors.

You hear someone singing as you approach the house... and you definitely don't want to hear some more. (just kidding)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: CandyStick on January 25, 2008, 01:54:12 am
Wow! Some of your suggestions are excellent! I came up with some myself, but most of them are not worthy of what you guys have proposed, so I won't list them all.

Here are some of them: (Please keep in mind that English is not my native tongue, but I think you could work around them.)

You hear dogs barking and wisely abandon the idea of breaking in.

You would need to smash the door or break a window to get in. You prefer not to draw too much attention.

There are way too many people inside for you to get in unnoticed and noone answers when you knock. Looks like they don't wan't visitors.

You hear someone singing as you approach the house... and you definitely don't want to hear some more. (just kidding)

These wouldn't be appropriate for non thief characters. Anyway, I like the idea of the little qoutes, they would defenitly help with fleshing the game world out. They shouldn't take too much time to implement either because not every house needs to have it (for many, a generic; "You don't see anything of interest here." would be fine). Maybe they could even depent on stat as well, where only a character with a specific amount of whatever skill/attribute would get some of them.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on January 25, 2008, 08:09:06 am
Some good stuff. I think there should be more where you see/hear little immediate activity though. Generally you don't walk down a street and hear children, babies, fights, arguments, lovemaking, abortive welcomes, accusations and insults - most of the time you get nothing but silence and a locked door.
The ones proposed are fine, but I think there ought to be more of a weighting towards uneventful descriptions - preferably a variety of uneventful, yet interesting, descriptions.
Maybe. I avoided these deliberately because silence and a measly lock would seem like invitations for a thief to try and enter, and therefore it might be dissapointing for thief characters if they can't try. The dark and silent houses would be those where I would add a little thiefy text adventure, if it was my game.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Priapist on January 25, 2008, 10:56:01 am
I have to say I agree with GhanBuriGhan on this. It's hard to make something that is completely concealed uninteresting. You won't see me rushing to peek at the patrons on the local nudist "beach", but you can bet my mind will run rampant imagining every little intimate detail of every single cute girl I see. I'd imagine the same applies to thieves and locked doors.

Unless you dispel (or all but dispel) that mystery, then you run the risk of a player reaction being "I still want to go in there, but I recognise that text is the way the designer identifies this as filler". Being met with silence is fine, but you'd need something else to confirm the all too unattractive prospect of opening that door.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Gilliatt on January 25, 2008, 04:07:24 pm
Wow! Some of your suggestions are excellent! I came up with some myself, but most of them are not worthy of what you guys have proposed, so I won't list them all.

Here are some of them: (Please keep in mind that English is not my native tongue, but I think you could work around them.)

You hear dogs barking and wisely abandon the idea of breaking in.

You would need to smash the door or break a window to get in. You prefer not to draw too much attention.

There are way too many people inside for you to get in unnoticed and noone answers when you knock. Looks like they don't wan't visitors.

You hear someone singing as you approach the house... and you definitely don't want to hear some more. (just kidding)

These wouldn't be appropriate for non thief characters. Anyway, I like the idea of the little qoutes, they would defenitly help with fleshing the game world out. They shouldn't take too much time to implement either because not every house needs to have it (for many, a generic; "You don't see anything of interest here." would be fine). Maybe they could even depent on stat as well, where only a character with a specific amount of whatever skill/attribute would get some of them.

You are perfectly right, we don't always enter houses to loot treasures. The first reason why I do it is to see if I can find some quests or interesting characters inside. I forgot that when I made my suggestions. You made a good remark, the quotes should not assume what our goal was when we approached the house.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: callehe on January 25, 2008, 04:08:42 pm
Sure, we'll consider it. Some help wouldn't hurt either.

A few quick ones for poor dwellings:

"The door is barely hanging on hinges which in turn are barely hanging from the wall. A quick peek through the gaps confirms your suspicion that such a dwelling contains nothing of interest."

"The front door sways and bangs in even the gentlest breeze. Anyone who might live here has nothing to lose - and nothing to offer."

"Looking through the half-open door into the putrid squalor within assures you there is nothing to gain from venturing further - except maybe foul disease."

"With an ear to the door you listen to the sounds within - an argument over a scrap of bread. Such abject povery is best left to itself."

"A front door eaten nearly through by dry rot can barely conceal the bare and musty interior. There's clearly nothing to gain from invading what little privacy the inhabitants have left."


I absolutely love the poetic character of these. They have flavour and are interesting, and at the same time discouraging the player to attempt to enter. That's brilliant. The other submissions are good too, but these are a step higher in quality and more apposite to the feeling you want to convey to the player.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: galsiah on January 25, 2008, 06:12:45 pm
I have to say I agree with GhanBuriGhan on this. It's hard to make something that is completely concealed uninteresting....Being met with silence is fine, but you'd need something else to confirm the all too unattractive prospect of opening that door.
Sure, agreed.
I just think that too great a proportion of the examples so far rely on current activity to achieve the "unattractive prospect". There are too many dogs barking and not enough subtle clues that there-be-big-dogs-here. Too many violent arguments, and not enough static indications that mean-bastards-live-here. Too much happening now, and not enough evidence that stuff is likely to happen if the PC interferes.

In particular, passive conditions can coherently sustain the "unattractive prospect" over time. It makes sense that coming back later isn't going to change anything. For most active disincentives, it doesn't make sense for them to be going on all day - dogs barking, perhaps, but arguments, beatings, expected visitors, lovemaking...??

How about some blood flecked doors, a few human teeth on the doorstep, a thief's severed hand nailed to the gate, heavy doors bolted from the inside and barred windows.... Or where there is activity, more that makes sense to be going on all the time - more no-nonsense doormen, dismissive servants, and the occasional crotchety hermit. (twitching curtains, "no peddlers", "we don't want anything"... are fine in this respect, of course).
I don't think there's anything wrong with the more colourful activities. I'm simply saying that it doesn't feel reasonable to be interrupting a cacophony with every second knock.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Vince on January 25, 2008, 07:25:34 pm
Sure, we'll consider it. Some help wouldn't hurt either.

A few quick ones for poor dwellings:

"The door is barely hanging on hinges which in turn are barely hanging from the wall. A quick peek through the gaps confirms your suspicion that such a dwelling contains nothing of interest."

"The front door sways and bangs in even the gentlest breeze. Anyone who might live here has nothing to lose - and nothing to offer."

"Looking through the half-open door into the putrid squalor within assures you there is nothing to gain from venturing further - except maybe foul disease."

"With an ear to the door you listen to the sounds within - an argument over a scrap of bread. Such abject povery is best left to itself."

"A front door eaten nearly through by dry rot can barely conceal the bare and musty interior. There's clearly nothing to gain from invading what little privacy the inhabitants have left."


I absolutely love the poetic character of these. They have flavour and are interesting, and at the same time discouraging the player to attempt to enter. That's brilliant. The other submissions are good too, but these are a step higher in quality and more apposite to the feeling you want to convey to the player.
He does have a way with words, doesn't he?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Oscar on January 25, 2008, 07:54:49 pm
Sure, we'll consider it. Some help wouldn't hurt either.

A few quick ones for poor dwellings:

"The door is barely hanging on hinges which in turn are barely hanging from the wall. A quick peek through the gaps confirms your suspicion that such a dwelling contains nothing of interest."

"The front door sways and bangs in even the gentlest breeze. Anyone who might live here has nothing to lose - and nothing to offer."

"Looking through the half-open door into the putrid squalor within assures you there is nothing to gain from venturing further - except maybe foul disease."

"With an ear to the door you listen to the sounds within - an argument over a scrap of bread. Such abject povery is best left to itself."

"A front door eaten nearly through by dry rot can barely conceal the bare and musty interior. There's clearly nothing to gain from invading what little privacy the inhabitants have left."


I absolutely love the poetic character of these. They have flavour and are interesting, and at the same time discouraging the player to attempt to enter. That's brilliant. The other submissions are good too, but these are a step higher in quality and more apposite to the feeling you want to convey to the player.
He does have a way with words, doesn't he?

Yeah... Those are really beautiful.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: callehe on January 26, 2008, 05:59:18 pm
Quote
He does have a way with words, doesn't he?

Hire this guy for next game?


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Isegrim on January 28, 2008, 11:07:12 am
Age of Decadence: Tactics? :idea:


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Tomasz on January 29, 2008, 03:18:03 am
Age of Decadence: Brotherhood of..Centurions (PS3\X360)

Trailer:
"..I was born before the empire collapsed" - Not so hot chick in the chain bikini, attacking everything that she sees, even some damn crates using Gladius which looks like Claymore.   ::)

I knew it that VD is you Herve ;) :P


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: Sleet on January 29, 2008, 01:41:34 pm
Quote
A few quick ones for poor dwellings:
"The door is barely hanging on hinges which in turn are barely hanging from the wall. A quick peek through the gaps confirms your suspicion that such a dwelling contains nothing of interest."
"The front door sways and bangs in even the gentlest breeze. Anyone who might live here has nothing to lose - and nothing to offer."
"Looking through the half-open door into the putrid squalor within assures you there is nothing to gain from venturing further - except maybe foul disease."
"With an ear to the door you listen to the sounds within - an argument over a scrap of bread. Such abject povery is best left to itself."
"A front door eaten nearly through by dry rot can barely conceal the bare and musty interior. There's clearly nothing to gain from invading what little privacy the inhabitants have left."

Excellent! Some of these nearly want to make my character toss a pouch of gold through the doorway to help out the destitute!  :)


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: MisterStone on February 03, 2008, 04:08:49 pm

How about some blood flecked doors, a few human teeth on the doorstep, a thief's severed hand nailed to the gate, heavy doors bolted from the inside and barred windows....

I don't see how you're going to cram that much detail into the game map... this isn't a FPS game where you are on the ground staring right at things.  And the whole blood and thieves heads business seems a bit over the top.  BGB's suggestions are a good way to add atmosphere (since the demographic being aimed at is presumably not allegeric to reading text).  With one caveat- keep the descriptions as short as possible.  Players should be able to read and understand what it is saying in a second or less... more than that and people start skimming, get annoyed, etc.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: galsiah on February 03, 2008, 04:31:59 pm
How about some blood flecked doors, a few human teeth on the doorstep, a thief's severed hand nailed to the gate, heavy doors bolted from the inside and barred windows....
I don't see how you're going to cram that much detail into the game map... this isn't a FPS game where you are on the ground staring right at things.
I mean that you'd write it, not that you'd put it in the map.

Quote
And the whole blood and thieves heads business seems a bit over the top... more than that and people start skimming, get annoyed, etc.
Apparently :).
These are examples though - the fact that both are along the same lines doesn't imply that that's all I want to see, simply that I wasn't managing great leaps of creativity when I wrote them. The point is to have descriptions of static environmental conditions provide the disincentive in some cases. Whether they're of blood, bars, poverty, teddy-bears or whatever isn't so important.

Quote
BGB's suggestions are a good way to add atmosphere (since the demographic being aimed at is presumably not allegeric to reading text).  With one caveat- keep the descriptions as short as possible.  Players should be able to read and understand what it is saying in a second or less...
Oh come on. Functionally it's essentially going to be saying "sod off" every time. What's left is the interest which can be put in to the descriptions. If it takes more than a second to say something interesting - and ideally somewhat informative on significant setting information -, that's fine.
The less-than-a-second crowd are hardly the target market here.


Title: Re: Town Districts
Post by: star on February 03, 2008, 05:20:11 pm
Quote
BGB's suggestions are a good way to add atmosphere (since the demographic being aimed at is presumably not allegeric to reading text).  With one caveat- keep the descriptions as short as possible.  Players should be able to read and understand what it is saying in a second or less...
Oh come on. Functionally it's essentially going to be saying "sod off" every time. What's left is the interest which can be put in to the descriptions. If it takes more than a second to say something interesting - and ideally somewhat informative on significant setting information -, that's fine.
The less-than-a-second crowd are hardly the target market here.


A mix is the best way. Most descriptions should be short one-liners with occasionally more wordy ones thrown in. Writing something lengthy and interesting for each filler house is impossible anyway.