Iron Tower Studio Forums

RPG => The Shelter - Official Dead State Forum => Topic started by: Brian on March 19, 2012, 01:30:11 pm



Title: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Brian on March 19, 2012, 01:30:11 pm
First off, apologies to everyone about the lack of updates lately. As is the case for many small projects without much in the way of funding, life and side projects/jobs get in the way of production… which is to say, not much was happening for a few months. But, in the last few weeks, the team has refocused their efforts and our build is finally seeing regular updates again. Our dedication to the project restored, it kinds of brings us to an interesting dilemma – how do we keep the project going full-speed while still being able to pay for development essentials like electricity, software licenses, and beer?

Let’s backup to an internal conversation from a few months ago. Some of us were keeping an eye on this newfangled Kickstarter service that was featuring more and more interesting projects all the time. While there were a few games on there, nothing was really pulling in the money needed for an RPG with a 10+ person team. We were pretty sold on the possibilities, but ultimately it came down to whether or not we thought we had the game in a state where we’d be comfortable asking people to fund our continued development. The reality of the situation was that it was not quite where it needed to be yet, so we put those plans on hold.

Unfortunately, this kind of led to a period where everyone had to take on second jobs/contract work, which naturally resulted in less time being put into Dead State. And one of the worst things that can happen in a creative project is losing momentum, which is what we’ve spent the last few weeks gaining back. And in that time, there’s been kind of an explosion in the realm of crowdsourcing. There is now both an awareness and excitement over the possibilities, and some pretty big projects (way higher than our budget) getting funded through Kickstarter. I’m not so sure it’s “the future” yet and I expect Kickstarter fatigue to set in as every short-on-cash dev tries their luck at the crowdsourcing game. The last thing we want to do is look like a “me too” project trying to ride the gamer goldrush (dolla dolla bill, y’all!) – but I expect that there are going to be quite a few projects that have no such hang-ups.

I still don’t think we’re quite ready for a Kickstarter launch, but we’re starting to head in that direction. I think putting a bit of distance between any possible launch and the massive projects being funded right now is probably a smart move, though I’m not a bizdev guy, so who knows. While we toil away on the latest Dead State builds and features, I would like to open up the discussion to you, the potential supporter - let’s kickstart a Kickstarter discussion. Here’s what we would like to know:

-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

We still want to bring you the zombie survival RPG experience we set out to do from day one, but in order to get it done in a reasonable time frame, it’s no longer going to be possible without a way to sustain full-time development – your feedback would help shape our plans quite a bit. Thanks for your continued support and interest - let’s see if we can make 2012 a great year for Dead State!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Caidoz on March 19, 2012, 01:36:43 pm
Hey Brian, great to hear from you!

To answer your questions:

-What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game?  -  I'd like to see that the main structure of the game is there, or that enough of the game is in place that all I'm really waiting on is details.  Maybe a look at some of the aspects of the game we haven't seen yet, like a combat screen, or a look at the map.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? - At the absolute latest, I think by spring 2013.  I'm not sure if this is even reasonable, but the closer the release gets to 2014, the more impatient I would get.  I don't expect to see anything like a finished product this year, but I could be pleasantly surprised!

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? - I'm not sure how to respond to this either since I don't really know your budget, but I think to see something like what you suggested (and NPC or a zombie portrait), I'd be willing to pay 100+ for that.  I think it would be well worth the investment to support the game and then see yourself included in the final product!

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? - Bi-monthly updates would work great for me if they had a bit more information than the Monday updates were giving us.  I think what I'd like to see are more story-oriented updates, like characters, scenarios, or missions.  I think that could bring more life to the forum, as well, since we could start making "What would you do" threads, and the like.

Just my two cents.  But it's good to hear from you guys and glad to know that you're all still working hard.  Keep it up!   :salute:


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Starwars on March 19, 2012, 01:49:24 pm
Quote
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

Since Dead State seems to be a fairly different game than most, I think maybe making a few videos with a voiceover talking about various features would work well. Like, making one video focused on the combat, showcasing how it works and the different options. And another one focused more on the shelter. And one with a general overview of the game.

I guess something that should also be taken into consideration is that (if I understand things correctly) both Doublefine and Inxile for example seem to really open up the game development and have fans be able to get a look into things behind the scenes and even affect things. Whether Doublebear would want this or not would need to be spelled out so that people know what they pledge their money to.

Good to see an update again!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Brother None on March 19, 2012, 01:53:12 pm
Oh man, it's such a relief to hear an update.

I agree pretty strongly that you should avoid Wasteland 2's Kickstarter pledge time-wise, if possible, but I don't think any "ideal" time will present itself, so don't delay too much. This bandwagon is only going to get fuller.

In answer:

-What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game?
Nothing, really, I already would feel confident. And as Fargo proved, people care enough about old-style TB games to donate without too much of a concern, plus your name helps. Still, the more details the better, since this is a different kind of project. Since you're so much further, you can show screenshots/mockups, detailed art, character system plans, discuss unique approach to events/missions, etc. Videos of what makes it unique, specifically, of the way the unexpected can happen when going out to scavenge for instance, those would be perfect.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest?
Depends on budget and stuff. Next year would be nice.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much?
I advised Fargo on his Kickstarter stuff pretty extensively, always willing to help out here too. The core of it is: the $15 for digital works. Yes, it means people will pay less than for the final product, but that's the way it is. The $30 for digital premium is essential, too. From there on, Fargo's own $50 old-style big box and $100 CE were nice but producing them does cut into your budget heavily, I don't think people will mind if you bump up the prize further. It's easy to get lured in to add more physical rewards on Kickstarter but obviously you'll have to pay a ton.
Oh, and avoid the whole "your name in the game" thing. In the credits, sure, but not in the game. Unless it'll be as a nametag worn by a storeclerk zombie :P

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase?
During a Kickstarter drive, there should be an update every few days. Yes, I realize it takes time but it's important. It can be anything though. New concept art, specific stories, just general musings, a few more details on character/weapon/item systems, as long as it stays in people's minds. Outside of Kickstarter, it's up to you, whenever you got something to show really.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Brian on March 19, 2012, 01:56:05 pm
Oh man, it's such a relief to hear an update.

I agree pretty strongly that you should avoid Wasteland 2's Kickstarter pledge time-wise, if possible, but I don't think any "ideal" time will present itself, so don't delay too much. This bandwagon is only going to get fuller.

In answer:<snip>


That was great feedback - many thanks!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: TailSwallower on March 19, 2012, 02:08:04 pm
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

I think without a demo/playable alpha available you're going to need to:
a) Really push the team's experience (Arcanum, VtM:B, etc),
b) Perhaps point to the AoD demo (which will likely drop before the Dead State Kickstarter) so people have some idea of the tech being used ie. so they know the engine is available, functional and being used for a similar project. Also, you're sharing some team members, so again, comparisons to AoD could be beneficial.
c) Screenshots, and not just combat. You aren't trying to sell an FPS to as many people as possible, you're trying to appeal to a niche demographic, so show us dialogue, character creation, skills, base management, etc.
d) If possible, gameplay video - just to show that the moving parts are at least partially in place.

Other thoughts: I don't think a 'humorous video' is necessary. The Double Fine one was great because Schafer is genuinely funny and entertaining, whereas Fargo only barely pulled it off.

Speaking of Fargo, I'm sure opening up a dialogue with him would be helpful - I think he'd be more than happy to tweet your link as he'd be excited to see more top-down, turn-based RPGs, if only to prove how wrong the publishers have been all this time.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

This is a hard one. Obviously it'd be linked to how much money you're asking for as you'd have a reasonable idea of how much money you need for full-time work on the project per month.

But from the point of view of potential backers, I think people would like it to be 12 months or under, but you could probably stretch it safely to 18.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

Well the physical stuff really appeals to some, but you'd have to research manufacturing costs first. I kind of wonder if InXile did much research into that, 'cause I could imagine all those trinkets coming out to cost a lot more than they might anticipate.

Vince is still talking about offering a physical box and manual for AoD for $50 (I think), so perhaps he has contacts/has looked into it. If it's feasible then big box + manual + map would appeal to plenty of people I imagine.

I think the most basic level has to be the game itself - anything beneath that is pointless (but so many people seem to offer minor things in their Kickstarters). $15 seems to have worked for DF & W2 and $10 for FTL, so I imagine you'd want to go between $10 and $20. Also, it seems like the two big things people want for the digital version is for it to come on Steam and also be available DRM-free, so definitely look into offering both those options.

I like the idea of zombified backers and non-ally NPCs, but not sure how much further you could take it. Locations and items could maybe work, but they could dilute the established setting. A lot of people are already raising concerns about the number of NPCs, statues and what-not that InXile are going to have to shoe-horn into W2.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

I'd be happy with monthly updates, but others might not be. Fortnightly was mentioned above, so I think that would work for most. And the kind of stuff that have made up previous MDUs would be fine for me as a backer.

Good luck! Dead State and Obsidian are about the only other projects I'd consider Kickstarting (after already pledging to DF, W2 and FTL), so I'll be here patiently waiting with my chequebook open.

(Edited to refine thoughts... a few times.)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: USER47 on March 19, 2012, 02:20:09 pm
I would recommend to stimulate the brand recognition before launching kickstarter. Make some promotional material - screens/maybe short gameplay video/dev. diary/whatever - and let gaming servers to pick it up few days/weeks before launching the kickstarter campaign. So that anyone who finds it on kickstarter will already be familiar with the idea behind it. Launching kickstarter campaign for well known project also stimulates the press coverage, more than just launching kickstarter for some new game nobody knows about.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: MidnightSun on March 19, 2012, 02:29:57 pm
Quote
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

Probably a video showcasing choices and consequences, main RPG elements much like this one: http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1896.0.html (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1896.0.html)

And then something to showcase that this is a survival, not zombie-pinyata genre. Oh and someone has to get shot at least once.

Quote
-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

I have long threshold, games take a while. 2015 ?

Quote
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

I dunno. Copy Wasteland 2.

Quote
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

Monthly is frequent enough, but still managable. Show whatever you can even if it's just Oscar pulling out bug fixes list out of his ass. But I did love the gun and concept updates.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: God is Dog backwards on March 19, 2012, 02:32:09 pm
I agree with Brother None, basically.

Also, I suspect there are gonna be 100s of games on Kickstarter over the coming months. You have to stand out, somehow - so have something to show and make the pitch professional. Schafer and to an extent Fargo can get by on their names - namedropping Vampire and explaining your pedigree would definitely help. Also, be detailed about what each level of funding gets the backers, and set some clear timescales - the risk with indie development, in my view, is that it takes years and years and years for a release (and you indicate that it's already started to drag with months of 'down time'). I feel you have to be straight with people and give a clear target release date if you're asking for their money - especially if the company doesn't yet have a track record of releasing games.

Also, a commitment to platforms other than PC would help - if you can say you'll port the game to iOS or something (after funding reaches a cerain amount), that should get people interested - Mac/Linux at the very least, given how widespread those systems have become.

Honestly, I feel Obsidian are the only dev remaining that can expect to get millions of dollars - I hope they put any project on there ASAP before kickstarter is saturated.

EDIT: thinking about what makes me back Wasteland 2 and Double Fine... for W2, it's because Fallout 1/2 are two of my favourite games of all time and a game that is in the same vein (and the inspiration) is something I have to support - and the fact that the original devs are on board convinced me to pay out. Same for Double Fine - Schafer has proved over and over again that he is a game-creating genius and I completely trust him to make a great adventure game - he's never made a bad adventure game.

Dead State, on the other hand, would be a greater risk - I love V:TM, but Dead State isn't trying to be a spiritual successor and your studio doesn't have a track record. As someone who hasn't been following development, I think you would need to convince me in your pitch - show me in detail what the game is about, when you're going to release it and so on. I would donate based on the strength of what you can show me.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: johnc1256 on March 19, 2012, 02:34:44 pm
I only want to ask 2 of the questions as I don't want to feel like a demanding customer. And i just hope this game comes out this year because the way it looks already it's one of my best game's.

1, We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? I would like to see some combat, well not just me but ye the combat. and most important to me the map, that is the point of which it will draw me closer to the game or not like it. thank's

2, When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? Now I know you said that you only have a small team but I will kill myself as this game is driving me crazy if at least the demo is not out by half way August or September hope its not to much to ask. Thank you again.

Hope you guys are feeling good for this game because I am and just keep up the good work :)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Headshot on March 19, 2012, 02:35:45 pm
 :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)  :D :D  Realy hapy to see an update!!!!

-I would like to know more about survivor relationships. It would be cool to see examples of causes and effects of survivor behaviour.

-I realy don't care about the timeline. Whenever it is ready it would be ok with me. But for the sake of the game I would say no to 2014. Followers of the game are already distracted.

-A burger named of me at Mr. Bison's menu would be fun. It won't effect the game much. I would give 50 bucks for that. But that's just my budget!  :( I think people would pay much more for a John Burger or Jane Fries...

-I think weekly updates would be fine. No need for huge updates. Just a little something to see game is still alive. Even "Sorry, no update this week. No time for that. We are so busy!" would be a enough for most of us.

Keep up the good work.
 :salute:


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: MaximillionMiles on March 19, 2012, 02:36:09 pm
Hmm, reading in between the lines it sounds like the Dead State team has been going through a rough patch. But it's good you are back at work and focused!  :salute: Good luck with the game. As for your questions...

-What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game?
I don't think there's really anything more than what has already been shown. That being said a demo (even if it's a teeny tiny demo) would whet people's appetites more than anything else, mine included. But I know demos are hard to do, and are usually done only when the game is close to being finished, so... Other things work too. Or even showing nothing except what has been said is good enough.

And by the way, what initially brought me to these forums was the fact that Brian was one of the big writers of Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines, as well as an interview with him I read on a website. Brian and Annie are both "big names" so to speak, because of the games you worked on. Mentioning that in the kickstarter campaign, hokey as it may sound, could help bring in more money.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest?

Depends on how often you do updates, the content of the updates, if you make a demo, etc... I'd say I'd wait until 2013 - 2014. Can't speak for other people though.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much?

My suggestions are:
Access to a beta of the game at some point (doesn't have to be early, or only for these people, just knowing you're getting a beta earlier than anyone else is good enough)
Creating a loading screen quote  
Autographs from members of the dev team, possibly on the CD case/box of the game.
Original concept art of some sort (limited reward obviously, probably for a high amount)

Not sure about the price of these though.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase?

I think very small updates once every two to four weeks could work. Nothing big, because focusing on the game and getting it out quickly is more important. I think even a token effort, just to keep the interest alive, works.

Great to hear from you again. :approve:


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Stanko on March 19, 2012, 02:45:41 pm
I think that in case of Kickstarter funding, it's very important to emphasize all the features that separates Dead State from the rest of other hardcore RPGs, like Wasteland 2 and others that will soon follow (besides from obviously being a zombie survival game  :)).
P.S. Sorry for my English, and it's great to hear from you!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Lexx on March 19, 2012, 02:45:54 pm
What came into my mind in the very first second: People who gave x amount of money could find their name / character in the form of a zombie randomly appearing in one of the maps. :>


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: HHR on March 19, 2012, 02:50:07 pm
I'm not sure that Kickstarter being flooded by game projects is that much of a concern. There seems to be a relatively large base of people who crave for old-school RPGs and have been left out in the cold for years and years now. I think that if you deliver a product compelling enough for them, they will generate buzz and they will be glad to pre-purchase it themselves. I intend to contribute to a good portion if not all the decent RPG projects that will be thrown my way.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Java on March 19, 2012, 03:17:44 pm

-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)


In order to feel confident to put my money down I would like a video showing different aspects of the game. It would need to show how combat, relationships, trades, ect work if only a shallow view. During the video explain what is happening and how it will be expanded for the final game. This works two fold as we get to see your ideas come to life but also gain the insight to what you want the final development of these elements to look like.

As far as a time line for release, i think it would be best for you to make it. I have no idea how much time it would take for you to get to a full stand alone game if you develop it full time. One option if you do let the community decide is to release a beta at that said date instead. It will allow you many peoples feedback along with bug/crash reports. Maybe selecting a quarter  would be best as it gives some leeway for unseen problems.

The rewards could be getting a NPC named after you to getting a thank you in the credits depending on the amount given. But it think a cool one would be getting a zombie model made of you for the game. These should be proportional to the work they cause you to do.

As far as updates go, i think a news letter or post once a month would be good. Just send an email around the office and let each person add a paragraph about what happened this month good or bad. Then publish that, screens and videos are nice but cant be expected all the time. Not many people would really want to see a shot of code that fixed a bug. But a new NPC that looks different or building that got finished by the art team would be good.





Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Silver on March 19, 2012, 03:25:38 pm
Hi! First of all. I had to register myself after being "stalking" here since 2010, since announcement of the game. It's almost two years now for me being here, week to week, month to month. (took username in quick rush/accidentaly = wrong one, but that's okay I guess  :))

Now here are my thoughts:
The latest-current so-called update makes me really worried and a bit pessimistic about the future of the this game in development.
As I'm seeing it, there aren't just enough resources at the moment behind the team to fully commit on Dead State. Sideprojects and jobs etc.

Brian put it right - if you loose the momentum, the things get difficult, linger, and eventually may be dropped, of course not light heartedly, but this may be the bitter reality, and furthermore:
some of the team (don't know how many people) are also working on the AoD game, and it seems their being quite succesful lately - it means they are loving what they are doing, and sadly, but in time the priorites shift! One more serious "threat" why DS may start to loose the attention from devs it had before. Sequel, Prequel, and even DLCs, right  ;) = why not to work on a project that you love and same time works (and has so much to give to everybody) !?
I'm really concerned, and thus that giving my vocal and written (and if it happens, $£€) support to start a Kickstarter Project.

 Not to be picky but you wouldn't be asking the advice or support from people if things aren't tough for you and seeing the opportunity you are considering of taking it, right.
 I really welcome and believe this is the proper way of approaching and explaining the delicate matter DS is having, addressing the audience/community/fans, being open-hearted and open-minded of the situation and the possible solution(s), not giving us some jibber-jabber.  :approve:

About the time it should be started!?

Anytime soon: Devs see people are behind them, people see that devs are taking quick actions to protect what they (all) love. (Not worth of mentioning it builds trust.) Plus people who are not currently knowing about DS, but are on Kickstarter spending-supporting money spree are more likely to make their contribution.
(OT: I'm seeing Kickstarter heading either one of these roads: It changes the gaming (biz) industry, "from fans to fans" comes reality = the positive way
Kickstarter gets eventually many cheap, even fake ideas, it looses its "charm" and faith people had it in, nothing changes with exception of couple of great games already supported by the community.)



-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

As already said: Introducing the main idea of game and some different aspects of gameplay. How can you solve situations in different ways, risks, possibilites, etc.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

2012 seems ridicilous sadly atm  :) But somewhere in 2013, early Q2 ? Would even wait more if needed, wouldn't want to of course :)
 Don't know how much is done. BUT the more you have done the more Kickstarter community will follow and support you. You are not starting from a scratch luckilly: you have a lot to show to gain the trust of the people.
Mentioning you have difficulties (all the reasons you are mentioned or will say) finishing the great idea you have and showing work done will be imho very nicely understood and accepted, supported.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

Rewards - the thing you can concentrate after taking the decision using the option Kickstarter Project can offer.
Also there are already quite good examples and "standards" on KS. (Given more money getting 2 digital copies etc is the nicest I think)
 Please just don't go against your ideas and the concept of the game. You don't have to give out opportunites for money to put "JoeCobb" "Zlatan from Sweden" or "Eskimo from Alaska" zombies or NPCs IF it ruins the atmosphere in/of the game. Of course you can do it if you think it's okay. Maybe some private party for around 15-20 people is nice for as extra bonus for people who can afford to spend more money than others.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

No strict schedule, but people shouldn't be in waiting anguish or smth like that :)
Some general way it works and has worked for different people.
 Monthly would be great for a bit larger amount of info, but if it takes longer you can always write "next week some new info" along with 2-3 screenshots to satisfy the hunger meanwhile :)
Video showing the game concept and different aspects would be great if person working on a game would give his/her voice on the video explaining things. Can't be shy or boring, sorry :) So choose wisely but loosely words you are saying!
Showing and introducing different and main NPCs you'll be definetly meeting, but not giving anything much, a bit of weapons, tactics =the usual! You are creative, you can handle the showcase! Having financial backup/support and getting a lot of more time to concentrate on the game gives you unpainful and joyful time for making game updates, I'm sure.


Best of luck and a smooth ride :)

SJ

p.s. sorry wor teh krammar, my gf and lil' sis are annoying me by now  >:D)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: joshkrow on March 19, 2012, 03:40:14 pm
Yes! Another Monday update! I'll jump right into the questions.

-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game?

I really like the idea of a gameplay demo video with voiceover explaining some of the aspects of the game as well as showing them. I personally would like to see a simple battle play out as well as some of the equipment screens and menus showcasing various weapons, as well as some exploration of the world of dead state.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest?

I have no idea what would be reasonable here (as it feels like I have been anticipating this game for a long time), I would say 12 - 18 months.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much?

Early beta play for one of the lower end donations, "Mmm, Bison!" merch for a medium donation, zombies/non ally npc avatars/flavor text mentioning your name/etc. for a higher end donation.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase?

The Monday updates have been great and I agree with one of the other comments that even an update saying you are busy is better than nothing. I would like to see showcased whatever you have available to show, but I would really like to know what your timeline is for the game realistically?


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Scott on March 19, 2012, 03:41:22 pm
I don't have any specific comment on what rewards you should offer or what state gameplay should be in, but I don't think waiting for the initial Kickstarter rush to cool off is necessarily a good idea.  I don't think Kickstarter-funded games is going to be a fad, I think it's a new paradigm with a lot of life in it.  The massive funding success of the first few indies to jump into this reflects fifteen years of frustration by middle-aged gamers whose desires, nostalgia and place in the market has been completely ignored.  These people (me included) are established, comfortable, and think nothing of throwing $10, $20 or $50 into the pot if they think they can bring a piece of the good old days back.  Christ, how many hours a week do each of us spend reading (or writing) complaints about how effing great Planescape:Torment was, and when are they going to another, goddammit?

Only two things would stand in the way of making it work for Dead State:  no name recognition (untested/unrecognized developers), and no content.  Dead State has neither of those problems.  Go for it.
--EDIT--
Actually, I do have one piece of advice:  make a certain level of contribution a de facto pre-order.  If I think contributing at a certain level is also getting me a copy of the finished product, I'm completely sold.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Trashcan on March 19, 2012, 03:47:41 pm
Very good to see you back.

-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

Descriptions of game play, or perhaps examples of game art. if the project doesn't change radically from the game which you've outlined already, then the key feature for me would be guaranteed linux support (you may even be able to, a la Wasteland 2, indicate different levels of funding at which multi-platform support becomes feasible). In general though, I just want to have an address to send the money to. I'll be an easy touch for this project.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

I'd like to have the game within minutes of you folks being done with it, but my primary concern is that your team get the opportunity to finish it to your collective satisfaction.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

Offering people the chance to have their name as background information in-game (on a poster, menu, sign of some kind); be a minor NPC or zombie; digital art book; wallpapers/desktop images; swag (posters or t-shirts, signed or unsigned depending on level). At certain levels, perhaps supporters could be listed in the game credits.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

Update once or twice a month -- show off concept art, in-game images, more weapon examples, or perhaps environments. During the campaign the updates should likely be a little more frequent -- but at that point you're mostly talking about where you are in relation to the goals you've established for funding, and what different levels of funding mean for the project.

I'm really looking forward to being able to put money on the barrel to help this game get finished.

--EDIT--
And I'd like to second Scott's suggestion: make contributions of a certain level act as pre-orders.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: subversus on March 19, 2012, 03:58:24 pm
I will back it up if:

1)it has a playable demo
2)it will have bi-weekly detailed updates
3)private forums where we can leave our feedback
4)beta some time down the line
5)release date - a year and half since the moment it's funded. It may get delayed by a few months IF some substantial reason for that is provided.


we also discuss these news here - http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=467075 (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=467075)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Nerv on March 19, 2012, 04:14:44 pm
This post made me stop lurking for a while...

I agree with most of what has been said.

In general:
* Do not wait till W2 Kickstarter is over! I have seen many links to other games in the comments there! I also don’t think its a fad, but it will get saturated fast, and trust will break for a while when the first projects fail...
* Give a background of the Team (to prove experience).
* Mention V:TMB early. People love this game! (And rightly so).
* Make a Video (don’t try to be funny unless you are ;-))
* I think its a really important to show of as much of the design and philosophy of the game as possible. I think this post (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2033.0.html (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2033.0.html)) is essential to describing what you are trying to do.
* Show whatever part of the  game is already furthest along. So people see that its not vaporware
* Emphasise that preproduction (design documents; engine selection...) is finished, and you already have quiet a bit of development funded out of your own pocket

Rewards (more or less copy W2), but:
* make sure to have medium tier rewards (30-70$) with added digitial value only. Shipping is expensive and import taxes even more so. Many people don’t want a plastic disk)
* do not make to many of the highest level rewards. A statue of yourself in the game is a lot more valuable if there aren’t 20 other ones
* for the highest level reward maybe offer to name the school after the backer. (5000$ or so)


EDIT:

How could I forget this. Definitely support Mac&Linux. We are under served gamers!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: KyzBP on March 19, 2012, 04:24:05 pm
Long time lurker.  This finally brought me out of the shadows.

Updates: Once a month would be good and it it doesn't have to be spectacular, just honest.
When: I'd like to see the game release to coincide with maybe the season 3 finale of The Walking Dead aka this time next year.  My wife and I are seriously jonesing for our zombie fix right now.  I'd gladly wait until fall of 2013 if I have to.
Rewards:  I agree it would be cool to see your name on some in game content or an NPC.

Like a lot of people here, I grew up with a C64 and crave the turn based games of yesteryear.  I too am financially comfortable and don't mind paying and waiting for the kind of game I want to play and not trying to adapt myself to the games that are out now.

Side note: By pure coincidence I contributed to WL2 today BEFORE checking in here.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Ruinous on March 19, 2012, 04:29:26 pm
I backed Fargo's Wasteland 2 just on the possibility of getting that game. I'm looking at it as a pre-order which if it doesn't live up to expectations, they may as well have the money anyway as a thanks for all the great titles they've already given me over the years. Money is tight, but I felt it worthwhile.

I've been lurking these forums for years and know the teams behind AoD and Deadstate are worthy of respect and support. If a kickstarter was used for either I'd be contributing there as well, probably whatever would effectively pre-order the game. Unfortunately I've not the cash to throw around to truely reflect my appreciation of the work you guys have previously been involved in.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

So long as people can see the development progressing, I feel a 'when its ready' is fine. When updates kinda stall, people do lose hope that the game would see completion.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

Wasteland 2's reward structure seems reasonable enough to emulate, though I feel having too much stuff named after contributors is a bit hokey

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase?

Once a month and perhaps some short gameplay vids.

Edit : This topic is sure bringing us lurkers out into the open  :approve:


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: jcarford on March 19, 2012, 04:50:53 pm
We lurkers continue to appear. I decided I might as well come out of the woodwork, register an account, and add my support for getting this ball rolling sooner rather than later. I think this might be relevant to the discussion:  http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stoic/the-banner-saga (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stoic/the-banner-saga)

Stoic has raised over 40,000 dollars in pledges in a very short amount of time. I don't know how progress on Dead State compares to what they are showing for Banner Saga, but if they can hit 100K, why not you? Disclaimer:  I honestly know nothing about making video games, so I apologize if that is a stupid question that can be answered with an extremely long laundry list of reasons.

For what it's worth, I would risk $15.00 on Dead State based solely on what I've seen here and on the website. With a slick gameplay trailer or some other evidence that this game was definitely going to be released, I would probably pony up to $75.00-100.00 depending on the pledge reward tiers. Having my name appear as filler in the game (as graffiti, in the name of a business, as a name mentioned in passing by an in-game book, etc.) would probably ben enough to induce me to drop a hundred bucks. Finally, I'd like to see the game come out by 2014, and monthly updates would be fine with me.

Good luck!

 


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Darkthia on March 19, 2012, 05:32:15 pm
Great to see you back brian, i was getting worried there for a second.


I find myself agreeing alot with both Starwars and Scott on this issue, you have name recognition, the kickstarter hype to ride on,  you've been a part of some great games that are renowned all over the internet. The time is now.

I would definitely recommend a preorder reward for donating.
I'd like to see a basic combat system and a basic dialogue system(showing choices and consequences if its possible).
The only thing for kickstarter that I would urge is to give at least a month inbetween you and any other classical rpg dev(to give the less well off of us a greater chance to donate freely).


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Brian on March 19, 2012, 05:33:06 pm
To the new, de-lurked, and old posters - thanks for the feedback!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: catmorbid on March 19, 2012, 05:57:48 pm
Great to finally hearing from you. I was expecting something like this, but knowing the project is still alive is good news to me.

-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

Definitely some combat, dialogue and if the base management has some specific UI, that.

Quote
-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

Depends really on how far into it you are. Let's say, by the end of 2013.

Quote
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

Zombified supporters is a great idea, but for the greater rewards, how about some sort of very small personified story. E.g. it could be as small as finding the corpse of a dead survivor with a diary telling about his last hours or some other fluff stuff like that. Might be hard to do so it makes any sense at all as well as gives the supporter a worthy reward, but something like that feels like it could fit into the theme...

Quote
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

I would prefer as open approach to developing as possible, however, a steady monthly progress update would probably suffice.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: KyzBP on March 19, 2012, 05:59:28 pm
...and let me add

Since DS and WL2 would attract a similar crowd I will be the first to post on the WL2 forum about DS once Brian and the gang give the thumbs up  :approve:.



Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Brian on March 19, 2012, 06:08:07 pm
...and let me add

Since DS and WL2 would attract a similar crowd I will be the first to post on the WL2 forum about DS once Brian and the gang give the thumbs up  :approve:.



I'm not sure what the WL2 board policy is on that. If there's a "general discussion" or "RPG discussion" thread, go for it, but otherwise don't. Most likely, we have a lot of crossover for our games already.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Povuholo on March 19, 2012, 06:25:30 pm
I guess it's rather important to explain Dead State properly. Last thing you want is for people to watch the video and go 'Oh it is another zombie game, how is that original' before clicking it away.


Ideal pledge time? No idea. Maybe a week before the Wasteland 2 one ends, so you can get a shoutout from the other Brian for some extra attention.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Goweigus on March 19, 2012, 07:40:26 pm
Quote
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)
good example of a tough choice with possible responses (possibly with info such as gains or losses in food, lives, approval, whatever) in a good format/ui maybe the amount of info changes based on difficulty level (hardcore you just have to have a good idea of what is going on and how things work)
Quote
-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)
December 31st 2013

Quote
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

If you can find a good price for putting ones likeness (face or name?) while making decent money for the time spent on it, go for it! I imagine almost everyone who will ever play this game will want to put their likeness into it, just like they did with Oregon Trail! Maybe a lower price gets you a copy of the game and a raffle ticket to win your likeness in the game, while a much higher price definitely gets you into the game.
Quote
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)
weekly updates, especially if you intend on running with kickstarter

I believe its been said we won't be able to edit character names in gameplay. This is the only way!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Blodhemn on March 19, 2012, 09:19:06 pm
-What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? - The combat, and just a small example of the survival element and or dialogue system in action.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? - 2014/15

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? - Soundtrack, hi rez artwork or something simple like that.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? - Once every month or two is enough, - showcase anything: game mechanics, screenshots, artwork, inspiration, current influences driving the game or even general frustrations. An update, no matter how little is better than nothing.



Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Lemonhead on March 19, 2012, 11:48:06 pm
No feedback, just take my money!  :panic: (that's the emoticon for Kickstarter fever)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: AdrianWerner on March 20, 2012, 12:42:53 am
Also, a commitment to platforms other than PC would help - if you can say you'll port the game to iOS or something (after funding reaches a cerain amount), that should get people interested - Mac/Linux at the very least, given how widespread those systems have become.
Mac/Linux is good idea, but iOS would propably do more harm than good, as most hardcore folk (and those are the ones who fund kickstarters) would assume the game would be dumbed down somehow. What's worse, they would feel that if they donated their money wouldn't go fully into making their game, but into making iOS port. Not to mention, it would take a lot of resources, which I don't think the team has to spare. Make a computer game first and only after you're done start thinking about other platforms.

Anyway, I would wait till Wasteland 2 kickstarter is done to not compete with them directly. Second, a big video, with both team members talking and showing who they are and what awesome games they worked on before, as well as detailed video demonstrating how the game looks, feels and plays. The second part would really distinguish Dead State from Wasteland 2, Banner Sage or Double Fine project and help convince people to pledge their money.

Physical stuff is extremely important for getting higher pledges. Wasteland 2 is good guide for that. People want posters, boxes etc. If they cost a lot make the pledge high, but this is the stuff that makes a lot people pledge more than 15$.Also..beta access. And digitial copy for everyone who pledges enough to get boxed copy.

Also..in-game rewards. I think it would be cool to name zombies (nametags, drivers licenses, dogtags, journals left before they died etc) after people with high enough pledges. THis method is cool and rewarding, but doesn't break the immersion of the game. .

Release date? 2013 the latest. People need to know this is a real project and they're not funding vaporware.

Also, once kickstarter launches make regularu updates, new videos, post art etc, without it the support quickly fizzles out after the initial explosion of exctitement.

And last thing: Dead State's development problems might put people off and make them doubt the team can complete the project. THat's why it's extremely important to be clear about how much is completed, how much will making the remaining stuff take, how many people are on the team etc and make clear that if it's kickstarted successfuly the whole team will work on finishing the game.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Zombra on March 20, 2012, 01:50:19 am
You might also want to look at the preorder model Xenonauts is using (http://www.xenonauts.com/why-preorder/).  It is kind of like Kickstarter without being Kickstarter.  This guy has a real knack for anticipation.

Basically they are taking direct preorders on an individual basis instead of grouping them into one huge thing.  Apparently they already have over 5,000 preorders (including one from me) at $20-30 each.  Look on their forums and you see a couple thousand users and all the ones who post seem to have the premium ($30) forum tag, despite the fact that the higher level investment really gets you nothing.  Something to think about.

I don't know; maybe Kickstarter would be smarter, easier to publicize, and guarantee an all-or-nothing bigger sum up front (which hopefully would be "all").  I'm just throwing it out there.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: micks on March 20, 2012, 02:47:58 am
I believe the crucial thing is to ask for the "right" amount of money, i.e. such as will give you something like 99% certainty of delivering at the proposed deadline (preferably no later than by the end of 2013, but that really depends on how far along you are, etc.) and at the same time feel justifiable to the contributors.

The presentation should combine past credentials (Troika, Obsidian work, AoD) with explanation of what makes the game unique (rather than any particular feature). The current Banner Saga project is a good example, and the circumstances are somewhat similar (as is most probably the budget, too).

Looking forward to contribute.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Tuco Benedicto Pacifico on March 20, 2012, 04:20:07 am
You might also want to look at the preorder model Xenonauts is using (http://www.xenonauts.com/why-preorder/).  It is kind of like Kickstarter without being Kickstarter.  This guy has a real knack for anticipation.

Basically they are taking direct preorders on an individual basis instead of grouping them into one huge thing.  Apparently they already have over 5,000 preorders (including one from me) at $20-30 each.  Look on their forums and you see a couple thousand users and all the ones who post seem to have the premium ($30) forum tag, despite the fact that the higher level investment really gets you nothing.  Something to think about.

I don't know; maybe Kickstarter would be smarter, easier to publicize, and guarantee an all-or-nothing bigger sum up front (which hopefully would be "all").  I'm just throwing it out there.
It should be pointed how that model works just cause they actually have a beta build to lure paying customers... And beside that I would guess that probably a proper Kickstarter could give them more exposure of what they have now. But well, what's done is done, as they say.

Anyway, I'd like to join those stating that if you're not a big name in the industry, it's very important to show off as much as you can to convince backers that this is a solid project, with good chances to see an actual release.
Also, as Brother None said, constant updates on the Kickstarter page would be essential to keep the interest (and press exposure) high over the whole period the funding attempt is running.

EDIT: last detail: for the goal, I'd suggest to aim as low as you realistically can, and then eventually enjoy every penny above that threshold (it's not really an uncommon thing for popular KS projects to top their goal by large amounts).


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Dean101 on March 20, 2012, 04:32:05 am
The guys over at The Banner Saga, seem to be getting a pretty good buzz with a promotional poster for the game, at the $50.00 tier. A lot of people seem to want it. Many people are upping their donation level, just to get it. (including me.) I'm sure you guys could come up with something cool as well. People love zombie posters. I've got the perfect place for one.

I would promote the fact that the game has a high re-playability factor, and can be a very different experience on each play through. Haven't seen anyone mention that.    


Also:

You and Annie's credentials as developers is a given, but I would also mention some of the Old School Games that you really liked to play, and why you liked them.

 OSG that you take inspiration from as developers.

The combat system is similar to ..........
Character creation and development is like ...............
The tone of the dialog is inspired by ........  

This one might be kind of tough, Dead State being a pretty unique kind of game, but try to compare it to an OSG that it most closely, overall, resembles. So people can identify with it.

[psychology101]

 The better people can relate, and identify, with you guys as developers and FELLOW GAMERS, the easier it will be to get their support.[/psycology101]

I know most of this stuff is pretty obvious, but some of it I haven't seen mentioned, and just wanted to try and contribute something I thought might help. Once you get the KS thing going, I'll take the easy way out, and contribute with cash.

Also, this is why I don't post more often.......it's like trying to read a shotgun blast.



 


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on March 20, 2012, 06:31:51 am
Good to see you back with an update. I hope the newfound momentum will be here to stay, of course!


-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)
- Combat, with different weapon classes, showing off the zombie/noise mechanic
- Interaction with NPCs at the shelter, showing dialog, and how decisions have consequences, maybe a glimpse of shelter management.
- Inventory management, highlighting the importances of equipment, weapons, etc. and how it interacts with character stats.


-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)
Personally i don't care. I have a RPG backlog that will last me for years. But within two years would be a good goal, shorter if the kickstarter is really successfull allowing you to concentrate fully on the game.


-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)
I think the models put forth by Banner Saga and W2 seem to be good templates.


-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)
Monthly. Screens and even better, videos of the game would be interesting. I always enjoyed your past monday updates, so stuff in that vein would also be appreciated.



Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Tuco Benedicto Pacifico on March 20, 2012, 06:48:17 am
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)
Monthly. Screens and even better, videos of the game would be interesting. I always enjoyed your past monday updates, so stuff in that vein would also be appreciated.
Monthly updates could make sense as a general rule during development, but during the Kickstarter run (which lasts for one or two months at most) they should definitely boost their output of updates to 5-7 days delays.
It's just a fact that on KS the audience's attention tends to fade away after a couple of days and peaks again to some extent when there are interesting new updates.

Ideally, there should be some sort of weekly videoblog like the one that Rosen keeps up to date for Wolfire's Overgrowth. in case there isn't enough stuff to keep the pace with this kind of effort, even showing some new concept art, mock-up screenshot, or design concept here and there would help a lot.

People need to be convinced that the project is solid and that progress has a fine pace; when you ask for their money reassuring from time to time that "This isn't vaporware" isn't as good as it is when you just need a "Like" on Facebook or more hits on the official forum.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on March 20, 2012, 07:21:58 am
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)
Monthly. Screens and even better, videos of the game would be interesting. I always enjoyed your past monday updates, so stuff in that vein would also be appreciated.
Monthly updates could make sense as a general rule during development, but during the Kickstarter run (which lasts for one or two months at most) they should definitely boost their output of updates to 5-7 days delays.
It's just a fact that on KS the audience's attention tends to fade away after a couple of days and peaks again to some extent when there are interesting new updates.

Ideally, there should be some sort of weekly videoblog like the one that Rosen keeps up to date for Wolfire's Overgrowth. in case there isn't enough stuff to keep the pace with this kind of effort, even showing some new concept art, mock-up screenshot, or design concept here and there would help a lot.

People need to be convinced that the project is solid and that progress has a fine pace; when you ask for their money reassuring from time to time that "This isn't vaporware" isn't as good as it is when you just need a "Like" on Facebook or more hits on the official forum.

Yes I agree with that, monthly was meant with regards to general updates.

I would certainly think its time well spent to make the kickstarter drive look professional. Having good footage of the game itself, or even better, a demo would certainly help as well. Having the AoD demo out should also help a bit, as there is quite a bit of overlap between both teams.

I also wondered whether Kickstarter allows to actually win investors (in the more classic sense of people looking to invest to make a profit)? E.g. would a high tier pledge (e.g. $5000) offering a return of investment after a certain time / certain number of units sold, plus tiered bonuses based on the actual sales / royalties? I half assume there are legal problems with such a setup, but I'm asking because while I think the people pledging $10000 for participating in a party and some trinkets and an in-game statue are nuts (or just way too rich), I would seriously think about investing a few thousand in a game, gambling on its success, so to speak.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: GarfunkeL on March 20, 2012, 07:23:01 am
Monthly updates during development works for me.

What BN said about Kickstarter.

Ideally I'd want Dead State in my hands tomorrow but I can wait until 2013. Or 2014, really.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on March 20, 2012, 07:26:55 am
Quote
First off, apologies to everyone about the lack of updates lately. As is the case for many small projects without much in the way of funding, life and side projects/jobs get in the way of production… which is to say, not much was happening for a few months. But, in the last few weeks, the team has refocused their efforts and our build is finally seeing regular updates again. Our dedication to the project restored, it kinds of brings us to an interesting dilemma – how do we keep the project going full-speed while still being able to pay for development essentials like electricity, software licenses, and beer?

That's why i launched at first the DS poll about kickstarte, i knew something was wrong, lack of beer ? Is there something more terrible ?

Quote
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

A gaming live video would help a lot i think, putting your name in bold when you're mentionned, cause a great name from someone which is in the industry will always lead to more backers

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

Quote
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

just ideas, i'm not a collector addicted of games
-10.000k: 20 digital games, all free dlc for those 20 copies (dlc ftw XD), a giant painting of you rotting, a diner with the crew made of chips and beers, all dead state goodies (shirts, hoodies, underwear) etc, your picture and name as an npc

-5000: everything above minus the diner

-2000: everything above minus the npc name

-1000: everything above minus the npc picture

-500: everything above minus the painting

-200: the game, the ost, some goodies signed

-100: the game, the ost, pictures of devs cats signed by cats

-50: the game + ost

-less: the game

Quote
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

2/3 times a month, but i don't really need update,a s long as i know you guys are working on it.

If DS could be released in 2k12 it would be awesome, but first quarter 2k13 will be ok too


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Dean101 on March 20, 2012, 07:27:49 am
Speaking of Monday updates. I was just reading your Survival Training thread, and had a promotional idea.

 Make an..........Essential Zombie Apocalypse Survival Training Guide

It would make a cool little pamphlet/booklet to put inside the box, for one of the higher level tiers. You could also make a .pdf version for the Digital Deluxe download tier. You could leave space, so people can actually fill in the blanks. Maybe with a little mascot type character. Pauly/Patty Prepared.

There were a lot of great questions, and info. in that thread, and it would be a great tie in for zombie crowd.  

 If you don't like that idea:

Some of the questions could be used as loading screens, or it could be found in the game world, on a dead guy, that hadn't filled it out yet.  

Not sure how spoilerish a map would be. Might be a better option.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Priapist on March 20, 2012, 07:31:22 am
Glad to hear you guys are still alive and kicking, and that the pedal is back to the metal.

There's some good stuff in this thread already, so I'll keep it brief. Regardless of how you present, I'll be in for a low-tier contribution - but I think it's really important to sell yourselves. The high-rollers in the kickstarter game thus far are people that gamers trust to carry through on their promises. People who have developed quality games in the past and go into it as self-employed professionals, rather than wide-eyed amateurs. You may not have the profile of a Tim Schaefer or Brian Fargo, but I reckon you could almost get by on the Ocean House Hotel alone, let alone the rest of Bloodlines and your collective work at Obsidian.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: suibhne on March 20, 2012, 08:04:25 am
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

A video is worth a thousand screenshots, so I guess it's worth a million words. ;)

The screenshots already look great, but for Kickstarter I think a few things would be immensely useful:
- a few more screenshots - because who doesn't love 'em, and they're relatively easy to do;
- a video of some significant gameplay (maybe 3-5 minutes), including base management, exploration, and combat (but not everything has to be feature-complete, obviously!); and
- more bio of your professional background - you folks have done a few impressive things, and that really helps to build cred for crowdsourced funding. People aren't just funding the project - they're buying into your ability to deliver, and it helps if they believe in your personal story/stories.

Quote
-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

No preference. When it's done.

Quote
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

No preference (or very little). I like your idea of the portrait reward. Think of smaller rewards too, tho - like sponsor-specific avatars or early access to music tracks.

Quote
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

I'd like to see a comprehensive customer and media relationship strategy that doesn't take time out of your schedule. Get a crack intern - pay them a small amount in exchange for them being able to build a career, contact list, etc. for games marketing. I'm in a good US business school right now, and I have a few Marketing colleagues who would probably jump at a chance like this as long as they could do a good job in 5 hours/week. And I think they could. Once you approach release and need more marketing, you can figure out another strategy - add another intern, put in some developer time, whatever. Your first intern can even help build a strategic marketing plan for you that will solve that issue - win-win, because it's another feather in their cap.

(And keep in mind that something like this might be attractive to PR students as well as some MBA students; the pool isn't as tiny as you might think. The challenge would be getting the word out, then doing enough interviewing to actually find someone who doesn't require a lot of management and can communicate as effectively with you as with the outside world.)

Right now, you want to produce a steady trickle (emphasis on both words there), and you want to build a small media ecosystem that can drive hits back and forth. And don't take any chances - try to get that ecosystem up and running (or better-oiled than it currently is ;) ) before you go to Kickstarter.

Also, seriously, weekly is too much, at least until you have a plan in place with a clearer idea of where your marketing resources are coming from. I'd suggest monthly updates at this point, with occasional surprise bonus postings at irregular intervals in between the regular updates.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: unimural on March 20, 2012, 10:32:57 am
Ancient lurker here as well.

As others have pointed out, it is important to make potential backers both trust you and be interested in the game. I would like to add a suggestion to theirs: do an update on your website. Overhauling it isn't probably necessary, but it does feel abandoned. And I'm fairly certain I'd feel the same were I to encounter it for the first time. Well, perhaps in a month I wouldn't :-)

- What to show?

The shelter is a unique feature in your game, I think you should show a bit of how it works. Something of combat needs to be seen as well. I think it would be interesting if you could wrap the gameplay presentation into a story, since evoking narratives is such a strong draw in games like these. Perhaps construct a 'highlights reel' of a mission, something going right and something wrong.

- Release?

I really don't care all that much, but I do believe the 12 - 18 months from start of Kickstarter should be the goal. Gamers are used to waiting for games, and I think a lot of the potential backers have at least that much patience.

- Rewards?

I just want the game, but I'd probably take whatever ~$100 tier you would offer. A lot of people (or perhaps merely vocal people) seem to like physical stuff.

- Updates

Once a month would be fine by me, but I suppose something every fortnight is closer to what people want. To be honest, I usually don't follow the updates of the Kickstarter projects I've backed.

One thing that could be cool is if you'd do a devchat every two months, for example. Or record a progresscast with the team, perhaps answering questions from the forums. A big part of the reason why people want to spend money on things like these is to _feel_ involved. And hearing you guys talk of the game (or of whatever) would, I think, be something most people would enjoy.

- When to Kickstart

Kickstarter was quite successful even before Tim Schafer started the gaming kickstarters boom. I do think oversaturation will become a problem before long. Afterwards it'll even out, but you probably want to try to get started before too long.

Good luck! I really hope I'll be able to play Dead State eventually.

EDIT: The following, possibly stupid or impractical idea occured to me. If you could blackmail some rpg superstar like Tim Cain, MCA to say something stupid on the video like :'Tim Cain wants you to back Dead State.', well, that would be something I would find impressive and funny.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on March 20, 2012, 11:45:33 am
hum i forgot as reward:

50k: all the bellow + your zomby portait will be the jacket of deadstate (if you haven't something done or in mind yet)
it hink it could be a motivating reward to have his face, as the dead state videogame, also i think with kickstarter you'll be able to do (limited) physical dvd of your game( for further backers like 50$) i know how it cost to release cd/dvds, could be also cool to make a limited version of it (1k to 10k copies depends of the backers) that the team can sign for further backers (150$ and more for example) free shipping costs to usa/canada (that would be included in the amount requested) and an extra 10$ to europe and 15$ to asia/oceania

edit: oh yeah and you can ask bryan fargo for 100k$ if needed, seems like he can afford it


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: geezer on March 20, 2012, 11:50:38 am
Quote
-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

Assuming you don't have that much of the game completed I would say 2014. Anything much longer than that will make backers nervous I think. But for me at least 2013 seems too early. You might want to mention how much an extra year of development time might cost.

Quote
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

I would hate to see the same kind of silly rewards that Fargo offered at higher levels, but at the lower levels I think he has the right idea. Except that your costs for having boxes and CD cases with artwork on them will probably be higher per backer. I can't stress the importance of the nice DVD case and manual and box. I'd also like to mention the idea of holograms. Having box art or DVD case inserts with hologram art would be cool. Also I think offering a lower tier that only includes a DVD in a case with an artwork insert without a manual or box and a tier with just a DVD+case+manual might be in there as well. Those are things that people downloading your game on the pirate bay will not have. It does cost money, but it makes people feel like they are buying something tangible. Just make sure that those tiers are priced high enough that you won't end up getting more money from the $15 tiers than from the $50 ones. If you have to charge $75 just for a manual, DVD case, and box then do so. It's still better than not offering that option.

Also be careful with shipping costs. You might decide on some flat rate for the US and maybe Canada, but be very careful with international shipping. It can cost hundreds of dollars to ship a one pound package to certain countries. In fact such high shipping costs aren't all that rare. International shipping can also be very unreliable to certain countries. You'll probably want to research those issues and make a statement about it. You might also want to mention an alternative, if any exist, to the credit card Amazon payment system that kickstarter uses. You might suggest prepaid cards or other solutions. Maybe even non-kickstarter alternatives.

For the higher tiers things like zombies with a likeness of the backers' faces could be used. Since zombies are generally just normal people who have been zombified, that wouldn't seem to harm the game any. You might also offer the opportunity to submit voice acting samples for a high tier backer. You would still retain the right not to use them if you didn't feel the acting was good enough. You would of course supply the lines or the kinds of noises you want. I'm just thinking in terms of some comment here and there rather than large sections of dialogue. Any sort of reward that might add to the game instead of taking away from it (like Fargo's statues) could be a good idea. You could even allow people to submit artwork. Perhaps there are artists that would love to have some of their bitmaps or 3d models in the game and might be willing to donate at a higher tier for the opportunity. Again, subject to your approval.

If your game is going to have a story or stories (quests) you might even accept story ideas and writing samples from people. If their writing or idea is good enough you could work it into the game. This would be easier of course if you have a structure that contains lots of little stories rather than one big one. That mechanic would entice me actually. I'd love to have the opportunity to write some little story which you would edit and improve and include in the game. Again, that's the kind of 'vanity' reward which adds content to the game. Actually even more than writing a story, I'd love to be able to do some programming or scripting that might get included in the game if the code is clean and efficient enough. I don't know how many backers are also programmers, but you never know.

And of course higher tiers should include the option of being alpha and beta testers. Ideally there would be a method for such people to submit alpha/beta bug reports. Although that method could simply be a sub-forum for testing. Oh yes. That's another thing. You might have a special sub-forum just for people who have contributed over $100 or something so that you can pay particular attention to their suggestions. I don't mean that you would give those suggestions more weight because they contributed more. But you might promise to check and respond to questions and suggestions in that forum first. All in all I think pure vanity rewards should be minimized and constructive rewards that might actually add to the game should be maximized.

Quote
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

I think monthly updates are fine, but I also think some kind of developer journal/blog would be wonderful. That way the backers could see that you are actually doing something with the money and not just spending it on heroin and hookers. Any way to make the backers feel more included in the development without also ruining the game for them would be good. Little videos now and again of programmers writing code and interviewing them about their challenges and progress and artists doing drawings and modeling would I think give people a strong sense of progress even if that progress seems slow. The design work and writing itself seems kind of invisible and talking too much about the story, if there is one, might give too much away. I think some kind of regular peek at the programming and art should be sufficient.

As for general suggestions I think you should be specific about your past projects. Make it clear that making games is not something you just stumbled upon and that you had a real hand in making some great games at BIS, Troika, and Obsidian. For some people just mentioning Torn will impress them. You might consider writing about some of your experiences at BIS, Troika, and Obsidian. To both demonstrate your writing abilities and to impress people with the games you've worked on without having to literally boast about it. Obviously you and Annie have some pretty impressive work history and you should be specific about what you've done at each company in an informal way without making it sound like a resume. What you are selling here is yourselves. Your proven abilities.

You should also be open about your other team members. Your artists and programmers that are going to do the grunt work. You don't need their resumes, but you do need to give some information about them and maybe ask them all to write something biographical. Or just do interviews with all of them. I think that's important. We are not just investing in you and Annie but in your whole team. I don't know if you are planning on having game music, but Fargo's inclusion of Mark Morgan really cleared up any doubts for me about donating. I knew that at least the music would be good. Although I don't think music is absolutely necessary in a game. Although sound effects are. That's another thing you might want to mention or demonstrate is some sound effects. Ambient sound and weapon sounds. Stuff like that. If you know anyone who has worked on famous games you might also want to ask them if they would be interested in joining your team. The inclusion of Jason Anderson from Troika and some of the original developers for Wasteland 1 definitely encouraged me.

Your kickstarter presentation is unfortunately not that different from a job interview, but with 20,000 or more people instead of just one. And that's another thing the more impressive your kickstarter video or presentation the more funds you will probably get to make your game. Unfortunate, but true. Brian Fargo's  video was amazingly well produced. Both interesting and amusing. Your video doesn't have to be amazing though. It just needs to give people confidence that they are not throwing their money away by giving it to you. Backers are just venture capitalists who expect a return on their investment in the value of the game that you are going to make instead of money. So you have to be as convincing as possible that you can make a great game.

Linking the size of the game and the features of the game to various funding levels would be great. You can make your target based on a certain vision for the game and then mention how you might improve the game with more money. Including taking more time to make it a truly great game. If x dollars will buy a certain size game, what size game will 2x dollars get them. Or put voice acting on the table. Or some other bell and whistle feature. There has been a lot of talk on the Wasteland forum about more complex combat systems. Or, if the game has a story, it could give you more time to polish it or enhance it in some way. What we are really buying is your time. You might let us know how much more an extra 3 months or 6 months, say, might cost. Basically by giving you development money we are trusting you. Trusting that you have the talent, the will, and the discipline to put all the work in to build the huge intricate machine that is a computer game.

One problem with your particular game is that it is unique. I cannot really picture a zombie RPG. I just cannot easily imagine how it would work. Sort of like Obsidian's Aliens RPG. It's very non-traditional. So in your presentation you should meet that objection as quickly as possible to reassure RPG purists that it really will be an RPG despite the fact that one's first impression on hearing that it is a game with zombies is that it will be some kind of action game. Mentioning 'survival' makes it seem even more like an action game. So getting specific about exactly what your vision is for the core game mechanics should be done early in the presentation. You should also mention what your favorite games are. You are presumably going to try to make the best game you can. So letting people know what you consider to be a good game is relevant.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: TheTuninator on March 20, 2012, 11:51:13 am
My thoughts:

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-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

For me, the primary sell of the game is the promised deep, intricate faction interactions and real player choice. As such, I'd want any videos shown to emphasize these aspects; the combat gameplay is incidental to the experience, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote
-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

A year after the Kickstarter starts would be ideal.  However, this can be rendered largely irrelevant through the simple expedient of releasing an alpha/beta version to pre-orders; even if the game isn't finished in 12 months, we'll still be able to play it and so can wait longer for a finished product. This way, you can take as much time as you need to finish the game, and Kickstarter backers/pre-orders can play it while they wait for a finished product (much like Project Zomboid has done). Win-win!

Quote
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)
Zombie and NPC portraits are a good idea, I think. I'd caution against unique items that have an actual effect on gameplay.

You might take a leaf out of Wasteland 2's book and offer a special party trait for pre-orders that just does some quirky or silly stuff, like, say, running into a character who looks an awful lot like somebody out of Bloodlines or Walking Dead. Sort of like the "Wild Wasteland" of FONV; that'd be a good way to give backers an incentive without actually having any impact on the gameplay.

Quote
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

During a Kickstarter, you'd need to be active, so weekly updates would be ideal. Even minor, easy-to-produce text-only stuff like character bios or faction descriptions would be great, and, I imagine, wouldn't require an inordinate amount of effort on your guys' end.

Also, many other posters have already raised this point, but I'll stress it again; you should trumpet your status as the writer of Bloodlines to the high heavens. As the draw of this game is the promised deep faction and character interactions, people need to know you're able to deliver on that; the fact that you're the writer of Bloodlines tells potential backers that you can indeed deliver writing of this caliber. In all honesty, Bloodlines is the best-written game I've ever seen; I'd buy another game with writing of that caliber in a heartbeat. Indeed, that's how I found Dead State in the first place, and I suspect many others will be drawn to the game for the same reason.

Don't be afraid to really put your status as the writer of Bloodlines out there, because it will both grant faith in your ability to deliver on your promises and draw new customers.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Imbecile on March 20, 2012, 11:55:34 am
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

We still want to bring you the zombie survival RPG experience we set out to do from day one, but in order to get it done in a reasonable time frame, it’s no longer going to be possible without a way to sustain full-time development – your feedback would help shape our plans quite a bit. Thanks for your continued support and interest - let’s see if we can make 2012 a great year for Dead State!


I'd like to see some dialogue, or maybe something that shows the branching effect of a decision. I love that stuff.

I could deal with it being out early 2014. Things always take longer than you expect.

Rewards?: Soundtrack is nice. Your name in lights (in the credits). You get put on Brian and Annies Xmas card list. Baseball bat & Chainsaw combination. Fake zombie repellent. A bionic Kitten.
OK maybe scrub that last suggestion.

Few updates, but to a schedule you can keep. Monthly, but with the occasional surprise update just to keep people logging in





Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Nerv on March 20, 2012, 12:12:23 pm
-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

I think only you can really answer that question: How long do you need?

I would think this question is also essential to determine how much money you want to raise, as the lions share is sure to be salaries... 
One thing which is bound to happen sooner or later on Kickstarter is a Project underestimating the needed money and not being able to deliver. Please don't let Dead State be that Project  ;)


What kind of rewards would you like to see

One thing which I forgot to mention earlier: In addition to a DRM-free and a Steam release, please also consider Desura. Its supposed to be really easy to maintain for developers, is Indy friendly, and has a Linux version.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: skuphundaku on March 20, 2012, 12:16:33 pm
Crowdsourcing and Kickstarter aren't going away, not for the next 18 months at least, so I don't think you should rush in without taking every aspect into consideration. Why am I saying "the next 18 months"? Because that's the promised release deadline for the big/significant Kickstarter projects that were just launched (the Double Fine adventure, Wasteland 2 and, to some lesser extent, The Banner Saga). If all of them flop, then crowdsourcing is going to take a big hit after these 18 months, so starting anything past that point may become unfeasible.

With that in mind, the question of when to start has to take into account the fact that 3 major (OK, 2 and a half because TBS isn't really on the same level with DFA and WL2) had just been started in quick succession. The result of that is that many of the people interested in old-school gaming have already spent quite a bit by funding them, so it's likely their amounts of disposible funds are quite low at the moment. I'm not talking about people contributing $15 for what is, essentially, a cheap preorder, but about people who contributed hundreds of $ to each of these projects and need some time to replenish their accounts. I think this should be much higher on your list of priorities when it comes to scheduling your Kickstarter project than the fear that Kickstarter is going to be too crowded with worthy projects, because that's highly unlikely. Right now, the only other promising Kickstarter project on the horizon seems to be Obsidian's/MCA's old-school RPG project, but, if they're/he's smart, he'll delay it for the same reasons. In their case, it would make most sense to start their Kickstarter project as they end the development of their South Park game. They could delay a bit if they're confident they're going to get good reviews and good publicity for that game. I think that the best idea for Dead State would be to have your Kickstarter launch overlap with the final few days of that Kickstarter, like WL2 had a small overlap with DFA.

Finally, a few months before starting your Kickstarter project, you should try making as much noise about Dead State as possible, so that people are aware of what it is and, thus, make them more likely to contribute. That's what both Brian Fargo and MCA have been doing since the DFA Kickstarter was launched.

However, you have to not forget that you're not just another "short-on-cash dev" and you should position yourselves to take advantage of that fact when you launch your Kickstarter project. OK, the Brian Mitsoda and Annie Carlson names aren't on the same level of fame with Tim Schafer, Brian Fargo or even MCA, but you do have a significant portfolio and you have to leverage that. What you lack in fame, you can make up with the fact that, by the time you launch the Dead State Kickstarter project, you should be having a working build of the game that can be used to showcase the most important features.

OK, now on to the questions:

-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)
Well, the way I see Dead State, the game is about survival. You have combat related survival and non-combat related survival. Any demo of a zombie game can't really work without showing of the combat. Also, not just any combat will do, but something that has the trappings of zombie horror/zombie apocalypse needs to be shown, otherwise it's going to be just combat that may not rise to the level of quality of Jagged Alliance 2, or even Silent Storm. Even more interesting than combat, the non-combat survival elements of the game need to be shown off. In my opinion, this part of the game is the more important one, because, otherwise, the game becomes just Jagged Alliance 2 with zombies, and I (and probably others as well) am getting zombie burnout, with every other game dev shoehorning zombies into their games only because having zombies in your games is the hip thing du jour.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)
I would rather you take your time making a good game than rushing to have it released as soon as possible. I don't think even 24 to 30 months would be unreasonable, if that does translate to more work being put into making the game and not just you going to work on other projects/jobs between sputs of working on Dead State.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)
I think there are 3 classes of swag you can add for the various Kickstarter tiers:
1) digital swag - I don't care about those things at all, but they may work well for differentiating the lower tiers.
2) physical swag - poster, box, collector's box etc. Plain for the lower tiers and with autographs for the higher ones. Personally, I'm a big fan of classic boxes, so I would love having some kind of collector's box extra for the higher tiers, like WL2.
3) vanity in-game items - names for bigger contributors in the credits, in the game etc. There were some interesing proposals earlier on this thread, so I won't go into details any further.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)
I think that the best thing for a Kickstarter project would be to give contributors access to the game's beta builds. That would help you a lot with fixing the game's problems and it would keep the interested people up to date with what is happening.

Finally, because this doesn't fit in any of your questions, offering the game DRM-free would raise a significant amount of good-will among the potential contributors. Any mention of a lack of a DRM-free version would mean you shooting yourself in the foot. Also, Linux/MacOS versions would be more than welcome. If you doubt the market potential represented by these versions, just take a look at the Linux/MacOS contributions to the Humble Indie Bundles. Without exception, Linux users are the ones paying the most (on average) for the Humble Bundles, with Mac users second and Windows users constantly last.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: geezer on March 20, 2012, 12:46:12 pm
I just want to add that I agree about the lack of DRM. Hopefully all kickstarter projects will offer a DRM free version, ideally both digitally and in DVD (or blu-ray) format. The only people who care about that stuff are publishers. Everyone else knows that DRM doesn't work anyway and just inconveniences your paying customers (or backers) while only delaying pirates by a matter of hours usually. Either way you just have to accept the free riders. It's inherent to selling a digital product. Some people are so annoyed by it that they would prefer to not even be in the business at all. Other people it doesn't bother. I for one wouldn't contribute a single dollar to a project that wasn't DRM free. Oh and don't consider Steam to be DRM free. It isn't . I have never purchased a Steam only game and I never will.

I'd also like to add that there is no absolute requirement to offer anything but the digital version. Brian Fargo is a businessman. Doing all that stuff is easy for him. For you guys it might be too much of a PITA. For a small project like this there is nothing wrong with using digital only distribution and just offering in-game goodies instead of real world stuff.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on March 20, 2012, 12:49:14 pm
I don't think like others 2k14 will be a good choice, you still have a lot done (i hope), if you got fully fund, you should schedule 1 y and a half top, otherwise it'll be too far away for backers, also, having the crew working full time on it should speed things up
see that example
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/64409699/ftl-faster-than-light?ref=spotlight (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/64409699/ftl-faster-than-light?ref=spotlight)

they x11 their objective, i guess with your names on the project a good video, a good explanation of the game goals, if you need 300k$ for example, you can double (or triple) it easy if the kickstarter is well introduced


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: J P Falcon on March 20, 2012, 01:26:17 pm
An added advantage to using Kickstarter is that you can get maximum exposure on Boardgame Geek. The site has a robust video game section and you could attach your game to a wide variety of "Geeklists" which can cross reference board game zombie and Kickstarter lists as well. This added audience will not hurt and in fact, even if you do not use the Kickstarter program, you should keep BGG in mind for future use.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Blaster on March 20, 2012, 02:19:49 pm
Hi Brian,

Thanks for the update. Speaking directly towards funding - the whole issue is a catch-22 until things really get rolling, imo.  You, as an indy dev team, seem to rely on donations to help fund the game, while a lot of potential donors, like myself, only commit to a game when there are regular updates with content we can gauge.  It can definitely cause a headache.

Anyway, to your questions:

-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

The way the game is skinned is nice, but entirely irrelevant, I think.  I would like to see what the engine is capable of, and what you plan to do with it.  Will we see literal hordes of enemies on screen at a time, or will they que off screen and zone in as the ones in game are killed, maintaining a set amount of, say, 6 at a time? 

Quote
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

In game avatars based on rl photos of donors? 

Quote
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

I like the idea of a timeline layout.  Get the team together and set goals.  Relay those goals to the community and keep us updated on what's been accomplished, and how things are changing as the project progresses.  Maybe list the challenges you've faced, or are facing, and how you intend on getting past them? 





Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on March 20, 2012, 04:02:36 pm
another example of one day funded project, i'm sure you can beat this for DS:
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stoic/the-banner-saga (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/stoic/the-banner-saga)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Brian on March 20, 2012, 05:52:32 pm
Once again, thanks for all the suggestions. Some quick thoughts on the data here:

Time period

-The reason I asked this was to see how quickly supporters were looking for turnaround in a full game. If the dominant response was "six months", then it would most likely not work for us. I would estimate we would finish no later than 16 to 18 months from being funded.

Rewards

-Special thanks in the credits for some set donation amount, no problem.

-Forum supporter tags may be a possibility, just have to look into the logistics. It's a good idea.

-Copies of the game, I will have to read the fine print about how it is handled, but it doesn't seem like a problem and in fact seems to be the most popular option, so that will most likely be a possibility.

-I'm not sure how many non-digital items we might produce. Exclusive T-shirts, merchandise are not too big of a problem, but once you get into boxed copies, those need to be designed/manufactured and I'm not sure how much that might set us back. Not saying it's out of the question, but it's something that's going to depend on how many we have to make before it's not just a break even item.

-Digital rewards are easier, and we've had some ideas for them built into the game from the beginning. Definitely, there will be slots open for people to buy a personalized item or message in the game.

-Depending on how much we get, doing a small Kickstarter mini-episode (like what happens a week before your character starts the game or the last days of a doomed character, for instance) might be a possibility, though it would probably happen after the full game.

-Alpha access is a weird one. While I appreciate that people want to play it as quickly as possible, I don't know if anyone has tested an RPG before, but they're not entirely fun in the early stages. Quests can't be finished, areas are missing, skills are missing, weapons are limited, characters are missing dialogue, animations are missing for certain actions, progression is blocked from a certain stage of the game, etc. It makes sense for something 100% uniquely generated like Minecraft, but not so much for a game that relies heavily on plot/character interaction.

Early beta testing is a possibility, and it would be great to get feedback on gameplay/dialogue choices, but only if people understand what they're getting with a beta. If people really want beta access, it will happen for one of the tiers.

-Soundtrack will most likely be included in one of the tiers.

-Do you really want our autographs? Huh.

-Yeah, the highest level will probably be all the swag + invitation to a launch party with some of the devs (assuming you can make it to Seattle). I don't know why people would want to pay to party with devs, but the option will be there for the people willing to fund the top tier. 

Updates

-We'll probably shoot for regular forum updates and semi-regular videos of the progress after funding happens.

-We plan to show off some dialogue/decisions, shelter upgrades, and combat for the early game on whatever video we do for any potential Kickstarter launch. We'll probably focus on dialogue in the shelter and one combat map for our early footage.

Additionally, if people have questions/answers about the project, DoubleBear, the team, other projects we worked on, clarification about why we are considering Kickstarter, feel free to post those questions here and we'll do our best to answer them in a formal Q & A.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: TheTuninator on March 20, 2012, 08:24:32 pm
Beta access (when you guys deem it acceptable for public consumption, of course) would definitely be a good thing for all tiers, I think. This may be a bit of a generalization, but for the most part, I feel that the kind of people who are likely to preorder/Kickstart an in-depth isometric RPG like Dead State are possessed of the mental faculty to understand that a beta is not, in fact, reflective of the finished product.

Furthermore, if you're estimating 16-18 months, that would definitely go a long way to assuaging fan concerns over the game's release date; getting beta access gives fans something to do and shows that the product is indeed improving.

I don't know if you know Xenonauts at all; it's an indie game very much so in the tradition of X-COM. They've given all pre-orders alpha access, and while this would obviously not work for Dead State for the reasons you've cited, having access is quite reassuring to me as a preorder because I can see that the game is improving significantly with time. Beta access for Dead State would serve a similar function.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Tylerryan79 on March 20, 2012, 09:36:38 pm
The time is right for this.  Overlap with w2.  People may be broke, but in a paychecks time they will have $ for you.  The large amount of press w2 is getting can be used to your advantage.  People will want to see what other "old school" games are being made/funded.  They will see you!  Your game looks great and the idea is solid.  Add that and a few thousand fans and your golden.  

I'm sure the fan base of w2 will dig it, especially if they are zombie fans.  And let's face it, zombies are in now more then ever.  With kickstarters press, w2 press, you should strike while the irons hot.  Wait too long and a large majority may never see your game.

As to rewards, that npc/gun/place one sold out quick.  People might think its dumb, but they are the ones who can't afford it, or too late to get it.  Get the game for 15-20, and throw in a Physical collectors/digital collectors.  I say skip a normal regular edition tier, and if people really want physical make them pay a little more.  Less work for you guys too.

Do a lot of updates on the kickstarter page.  Be grateful and vocal, make everyone outgo be your savior!  

Only do kickstarter if your able to get the game out in less then two years max.  I'd say one year though, 18 months tops.  People will be too scared to invest if your unable to deliver soon.  Some people will regardless, but the majority will feel comfortable doing it of the games out sooner rather then later.

If you can make a demo for kickstarter then perhaps that will give you leeway for more time.  

I've followed here off and on for a few years, possibly when you first put the site up or soon after.  You must update your site.  I noticed the homepage isn't the same thing anymore which is good(probably don't want to advertise your making updates for no one).  Make it looked lived in.  Before kickstarter starts have a couple recent things on the homepage to make it appear you always update.  Then start monthly updates.  Just your thoughts on the game, and whatever else is happening in the teams lives.  Look at the larian studios blog for a good template(updates on games and interesting musings).

Anyways, best of luck.  I'll support this game with my $.  Hope to see it there soon.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: bill2505 on March 20, 2012, 10:20:18 pm
i just   registered in order to answer this.
i new something like this would happen
When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)maximum 5 month( and not just a beta i mean a full polished game) after all  in the end of 2012 the  world will be destroys the apocalypse will come and T virus is going to spread  so  after that  i wont need a survival simulation  rpg because i will have to survive  in the real word(seriously now i dont care how long it takes as long as  i see periodically updates and the company is trustfull

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

what i would like to see is  a    survival guide package with maps ,guides how to survive( even digital)

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Super-Dragon on March 21, 2012, 12:48:03 am
I think that Dead State's situation is significantly different than Wasteland 2's - Fargo was the first to start an old school rpg project on Kickstarter and that got fans extremely excited. He didn't have anything to show, only a vague description of what the final product would be like, but he's reputation gave the project credibility. However I don't think that similar strategy would work with Dead State - people are going to be expecting more from Kickstarter projects, dev's word alone is not going to be enough. So when you hit Kickstarter, you should really have something to show. Dead State will be a much harder game to sell to the old school PC audience since it's not a sequel and it's not really a "conventional" rpg because of the strong emphasis on survival and zombies.

Another issue that I have to point out is that if you decide to go to Kickstarter, you have to be committed to finish the game in less that 2 years. You will only ruin your reputation if you take people's money and then make them wait for eternity.

I personally have lost some of the enthusiasm I had when I first heard about this project. Not receiving any update for months made me think that the project will probably be cancelled. I know that it must have been hard to not have anything new to show to the community, but at least Brian could have posted greetings on the forum every now and then, just to let us know that you still intend to make this happen. It'll take some effort before people will start getting excited about Dead State again.

Anyway, thanks for the update.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on March 21, 2012, 03:35:09 am

-Copies of the game, I will have to read the fine print about how it is handled, but it doesn't seem like a problem and in fact seems to be the most popular option, so that will most likely be a possibility.


That really should be a given. Most people would not consider supporting a video game project, if they don't get the game.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: SXX on March 21, 2012, 06:40:30 am
Specially register here to ask of two things:
1 - Please do not start kickstarter project too early.
I want to support brand new and cool RPG game, but I spend all my money for this (and next) month on Double Fine Adventure and Wasteland 2.
I sure lot of people just doesn't have enough money to support all projects they want to.
2 - Consider to make Linux and Mac versions of the game.
And use Desura as alternative to Steam.
Thank and good luck!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: TailSwallower on March 21, 2012, 06:47:48 am
-Copies of the game, I will have to read the fine print about how it is handled, but it doesn't seem like a problem and in fact seems to be the most popular option, so that will most likely be a possibility.

This is a must. Sure, you could have a $5 tier where people get a high-res desktop image or something, but the $15 (or so) tier needs to be a digital copy of the game - Steam and/or DRM-free. That's the tier and reward combo that will get the most traction. Next level up I'd go for the digital collector's edition - game, soundtrack, etc for $30ish.

Just had a thought - would Brian's micro-story ebook be a possibility either for the $5 tier and/or as a digital bonus?

-The reason I asked this was to see how quickly supporters were looking for turnaround in a full game. If the dominant response was "six months", then it would most likely not work for us. I would estimate we would finish no later than 16 to 18 months from being funded.

Yeah, I think 18 months would be fine - the people who would want to back Dead State would realise how big RPGs are and see this as perfectly reasonable I would expect.

[...]but once you get into boxed copies, those need to be designed/manufactured and I'm not sure how much that might set us back. Not saying it's out of the question, but it's something that's going to depend on how many we have to make before it's not just a break even item.

Yeah, the Banner Saga kickstarter mentioned it being prohibitive, but hopefully Vince has some hard figures he could share with you so you can make an informed decision.

-Depending on how much we get, doing a small Kickstarter mini-episode (like what happens a week before your character starts the game or the last days of a doomed character, for instance) might be a possibility, though it would probably happen after the full game.

Not sure what you mean by mini-episode - video, story? But people seemed to get excited about the novellas from Michael Stackpole, so yeah, I could definitely see people getting excited about some episodic story content from Brian Mitsoda.

Early beta testing is a possibility, and it would be great to get feedback on gameplay/dialogue choices, but only if people understand what they're getting with a beta. If people really want beta access, it will happen for one of the tiers.

For Beta access I would even consider going so far as making people sign up to the forums here to get their beta access and open up a dialogue before the testing even starts. If you just sent people download links without making sure they knew what they were getting themselves in for then I imagine you could end up with a lot of negative feedback happening on other random forums.

Steam for beta access also seems to be a popular choice. I'm not sure how you'd go about sorting it out with Valve, but at least it would limit the chances of the beta ending up on every known torrent site within a day.

Additionally, if people have questions/answers about the project, DoubleBear, the team, other projects we worked on, clarification about why we are considering Kickstarter, feel free to post those questions here and we'll do our best to answer them in a formal Q & A.

Do you want us to grill you as harshly as possible so you know what to expect from the greater internet?


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Scott on March 21, 2012, 07:40:49 am
And use Desura as alternative to Steam.

Use a DRM-free download as an alternative to Steam.  Before I donated to W2, I asked the devs to clarify whether a non-DRM version would be available.  They changed the text on their $15 tier to specify that in addition to Steam a straight, unencumbered download would be provided.  Wasteland 2 and Banner Saga (as well as Minecraft, Dungeons of Dremor, CDProjekt Red and a pile of others) have committed to providing DRM-free games.  This is becoming more and more of an issue separating indies from big faceless publishers, so I hope you will take a similar stand.

Everything you said above regarding your plans for Kickstarter makes great sense.  Good luck!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: MaximillionMiles on March 21, 2012, 07:49:06 am

-Copies of the game, I will have to read the fine print about how it is handled, but it doesn't seem like a problem and in fact seems to be the most popular option, so that will most likely be a possibility.


That really should be a given. Most people would not consider supporting a video game project, if they don't get the game.

-Copies of the game, I will have to read the fine print about how it is handled, but it doesn't seem like a problem and in fact seems to be the most popular option, so that will most likely be a possibility.

This is a must. Sure, you could have a $5 tier where people get a high-res desktop image or something, but the $15 (or so) tier needs to be a digital copy of the game - Steam and/or DRM-free. That's the tier and reward combo that will get the most traction. Next level up I'd go for the digital collector's edition - game, soundtrack, etc for $30ish.

Agreed. I didn't even list that among my rewards because I thought it was a given. This is usually the tier that gets most contributors because there's a lot of people that aren't that interested in or don't have the money to buy swag but want to get the full game. These are the people that would just buy the game and nothing else.

Think of Star Wars. There are people who buy T-shirts and keychains, there are people who buy loads of merch and limited edition stuff and get every new version that comes out, and there are those that spend thousands to get a piece of the scenery or something authentic from the production of Star Wars. But most people just buy the tickets to see the movie or buy the DVD. These are the majority, even if each of them spends less money than the fans.

And just as a curiosity:
(http://i1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc505/maximillion_miles/guests.jpg)
And the number of guests was over 100 just a few minutes before that (silly me forgot to screenshot it). That's the number of people that flocked to this forum just to read your new update. So there is a lot of interest in this game, and also plenty of lurkers I assume. That's how it always is with most games/movies/books: for every die hard fan there are many, many more people who won't or can't devote that much time and money into your work, but still want to play/watch/read it. And it's not in your best interests to ignore either demographic.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Kide on March 21, 2012, 09:57:13 am
Had to register to comment to this. Great to hear from you, and I have been following the game from sidelines for some times. I invested on wasteland 2, and would definitly want to invest on Dead State, and I am sure there is plenty of other's that would be happy to do it too.

Timeline: I personally don't care too mutch about the deadline, 18 months sounds good to me.

Rewards: I definitly would want something like a big box or alike from this along with the game. I just love the old style big boxes, and would love to see more of them. The zombified NPC things sounds cool too.

You probably should have something to show of the interaction's in the envirment/NPC's and at least some concept art and such in the kickstarter page. Though I don't need anything myself, just happy to back this project when the time comes. I originally found Dead State, because I was looking at the older PC games, and where the people making them had gone, so yeah I ended up finding Dead State through Vampire the masquarede:bloodlines, so that would be something worth mentioning in the kickstarter.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on March 21, 2012, 10:31:04 am
Dead State will be a much harder game to sell to the old school PC audience since it's not a sequel and it's not really a "conventional" rpg because of the strong emphasis on survival and zombies.

I strongly disagree with that, i think most old school gamers especialy the zomby fans (which represent a lot of people) are waiting for that kind of game, instead of a brand new engined game random shooter for example.

Specially register here to ask of two things:
1 - Please do not start kickstarter project too early.
I want to support brand new and cool RPG game, but I spend all my money for this (and next) month on Double Fine Adventure and Wasteland 2.
I sure lot of people just doesn't have enough money to support all projects they want to.
2 - Consider to make Linux and Mac versions of the game.
And use Desura as alternative to Steam.
Thank and good luck!

I disagreee too,
1. it's now or never, you would be able to support both games as a kickstarter project usualy last at least 35 days or something like that, means you can contribute in the next month.
2. correct me if i'm wrong but Desura isn't secure if you want to sell games, better doing it through steam once it's released, cause through desusa, you just have to give everyone your key to the game to play which is the best way to have your game pirated (again correct me if i'm wrong)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Nerv on March 21, 2012, 11:21:56 am
2. correct me if i'm wrong but Desura isn't secure if you want to sell games, better doing it through steam once it's released, cause through desusa, you just have to give everyone your key to the game to play which is the best way to have your game pirated (again correct me if i'm wrong)

Are you as a Gamer seriously arguing in favor of DRM?
DRM does not stop piracy, it just makes sure that pirates offer a better product on 2 fronts: it is free, and it does not have the annoying DRM of the paid version.

You are right that Desura does not contain DRM of its own, but neither would a DRM free version which I assume would be released anyway (many people have requested it, and more will if it isn't there when Kickstarter starts). Actually Desura can work as the go-to place for the DRM free Version as you can also download installers from their website without the client. This might save the Devs from having to set up their own server for the download.

Sidenote: I actually don't have much of a problem with Steam-DRM. But that is because its really unobtrusive and offers a TON of additional value in exchange (such as unlimited downloads, friend list, installing on multiple PCs ...).


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Silver on March 21, 2012, 11:32:25 am
I agree with some previous posters.

It's now or never with Kickstarter. Don't start to wait for a perfect moment. Currently Kickstarter is at peak and it would be unwise to pass the opportunity, when people and really enthusiastic and supporting many projects.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: xenocide on March 21, 2012, 11:59:43 am

-Copies of the game, I will have to read the fine print about how it is handled, but it doesn't seem like a problem and in fact seems to be the most popular option, so that will most likely be a possibility.


I am absolutely floored that this is even up for debate.  As others have said this is a must.  Do NOT do kickstarter if you do not offer copies of the game.  I hate to sound too harsh but the fact that you would even question this makes me less confident in the game and you as a developer.  That may sound over the top but for me it is true.


Time Frame:

16-18 is fine.


Updates:

More frequent during the kickstarter phase, but during actual development I think once a month is fine.  Others like big updates and new videos all the time but for me just a few lines of text now and then saying what you are up to is ok.  Obviously you can not have a huge lack of info like the last few months.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Brian on March 21, 2012, 12:29:29 pm

-Copies of the game, I will have to read the fine print about how it is handled, but it doesn't seem like a problem and in fact seems to be the most popular option, so that will most likely be a possibility.


I am absolutely floored that this is even up for debate.  As others have said this is a must.  Do NOT do kickstarter if you do not offer copies of the game.  I hate to sound too harsh but the fact that you would even question this makes me less confident in the game and you as a developer.  That may sound over the top but for me it is true.

Sorry about the confusion - yes, there will be copies of game, just as long as the second tier is hit. I just need to look at the fine print for this option first. This is always the most popular item for any successful Kickstarter project.

On DRM, as long as no one loses their unique code wheel, it shouldn't be an issue.






I kid, I kid. Without going into a whole piracy debate, I'm not a fan of DRM, but I wouldn't release a game download on the honor system either. I like the way Steam handles copy protection personally, but if people want DRM-free copies as a condition, we will have to accommodate that request somehow. Like I mentioned at the start of this update, we're just at the planning stage now. 
 


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Nazarene on March 21, 2012, 01:12:13 pm

I'm not a fan of DRM, but I wouldn't release a game download on the honor system either.

but you should. If you're going to use kickstarter you will be collecting money from people who trust in you, too (possibly without DoubleBear providing a demo beforehand). Me likes the gog.com/W2/Banner Saga approach  :approve:
Anyway your game will get pirated inevitably.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Lexx on March 21, 2012, 01:27:25 pm
Yup, it usually just takes a few hours till it's on the interwebs and playable, so DRM really has no effect other than annoying the ones who bought the game.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on March 21, 2012, 01:38:07 pm
runign a pirate version on a computer is something that not everyone is able to do (true), so a drm version will prevent those click and play players to get pirated copies.
I know some people won't believe that, but just look at some pirate copies of big games on torrent, and you'll see that not everyone is able to follow pirating instructions.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Brian on March 21, 2012, 01:43:18 pm
Yup, it usually just takes a few hours till it's on the interwebs and playable, so DRM really has no effect other than annoying the ones who bought the game.

To clarify, there's a big difference between something like a generated redemption code for a DRM-free copy plus Steam activation code and a download page that can be accessed an unlimited number of times by anyone with the link. Sure piracy is going to happen, but if we can make it easy for legitimate patrons to access their copy and not end up making it really easy for just anyone to download the game (and kill bandwith, annoying legit users), that kind of works in our favor. Like I said, I don't want to get into the piracy debate, but there is a lot of data out there on how NOT to release DRM-free products.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: quasimodo on March 21, 2012, 02:41:10 pm
Steam is DRM and I don't want it on any PC I use and my gaming PC is not hooked up to the internet.   

I would like to buy a hardcopy disc that I can install on any PC with a minimum of fuss, now and 10 years from now. 

If I have to download a game I do it at work, but I don't want any active program like Steam on my work PC.

I would be happy to give a lot of money to Kickstarter for Deadstate.  I gave $300 to Wasteland 2, but DRM is a big No Sale for me.



Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Nerv on March 21, 2012, 02:48:20 pm
To clarify, there's a big difference between something like a generated redemption code for a DRM-free copy plus Steam activation code and a download page that can be accessed an unlimited number of times by anyone with the link.

That makes sense, you will not stop determined pirates by using a login system or limiting the amount of downloads per redemption code, but at least it will not cost you on bandwidth.

I agree that we shouldn't go into the Piracy/DRM debate any deeper here, especially since you have already stated your intention to release DRM free.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Tuco Benedicto Pacifico on March 21, 2012, 02:54:07 pm
Steam is DRM and I don't want it on any PC I use and my gaming PC is not hooked up to the internet.  
Steam is mostly perceived as a service and only in second stance as a DRM, and rightfully so, as there are many good reasons to justify this perception.
For a start, unlike shit like Securom or TAGES, Steamworks integration doesn't install stealth drivers in your system. It just uses encrypted data until the first activation.

That said, I'll leave you with your idiosyncrasies.

For those so vocally advocating for Desura, on the other hand, i'd like to quote Puppy Games (Revenge of The Titans' developers):

Quote
This part of the post is likely to attract all manner of hate and flames, but it has to be said: Desura wasn’t working for us. We spend just as much time and stress figuring out how to release software on the Desura platform as Steam, but unfortunately make literally 1/1000th of the money. So little in fact I don’t think Desura have even managed to pay us any money yet. It doesn’t make sense for us to support Desura any more, and so we’re not. Don’t get me wrong – it’s a great client, their hearts are in the right place, but… we’re on Steam.

So my humble apologies to anyone with their eggs in the Desura basket. Contact us if you’ve got any issues.

As DRM-free services I would say that GoG or gamersgate sound way more appealing as commercial partners.
The truth, in any case, is that Steamworks integration (with all the features that come with it) is probably the only "DRM" that increases the popularity of a game and its sales, instead of hurting them.
For a lot of people today Steam achievements, cloud saving and Steam community features (for multiplayer games) are a PLUS to buy a game.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on March 21, 2012, 04:47:49 pm
i second that  :approve: (you made my point in a better english that i would've ever been able to)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Nerv on March 21, 2012, 05:09:49 pm
Steam is DRM and I don't want it on any PC I use and my gaming PC is not hooked up to the internet.  
Steam is mostly perceived as a service and only in second stance as a DRM, and rightfully so, as there are many good reasons to justify this perception.
For a start, unlike shit like Securom or TAGES, Steamworks integration doesn't install stealth drivers in your system. It just uses encrypted data until the first activation.

That said, I'll leave you with your idiosyncrasies.

Totally agree on the Steam stuff.


For those so vocally advocating for Desura, on the other hand, i'd like to quote Puppy Games (Revenge of The Titans' developers):

Quote
This part of the post is likely to attract all manner of hate and flames, but it has to be said: Desura wasn’t working for us. We spend just as much time and stress figuring out how to release software on the Desura platform as Steam, but unfortunately make literally 1/1000th of the money. So little in fact I don’t think Desura have even managed to pay us any money yet. It doesn’t make sense for us to support Desura any more, and so we’re not. Don’t get me wrong – it’s a great client, their hearts are in the right place, but… we’re on Steam.

So my humble apologies to anyone with their eggs in the Desura basket. Contact us if you’ve got any issues.

Puppy games are just one developer, their only game on Desura was Attack of the Titans, which many people had already bought through the humble bundle. I would bet good money this is the main reason for lack of sales: There is a huge overlap of HIB customers and Desura users.

Desura is also very easy to maintain. I'm not advocating it instead of Steam, but in addition (and possibly as a source for the DRM free version):

Quote from: Gaslaplamp Games
I really love Desura as a platform; from the developer’s perspective, they have some of the best and cleanest tools in the business. Packaging a Dredmor build is as easy as pointing it at the build and going “here, off you go.” I love it, and I wish all our Linux customers would use it because it makes my life so easy and wonderful. By contrast, updating the Humble Bundle Build is an exercise in pain and frustration. (Steam is somewhere between the two.)
http://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?threads/exclusive-interview-with-gaslamp-games.750/ (http://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?threads/exclusive-interview-with-gaslamp-games.750/)

Also Desura is fast becoming the goto place for Linux gamers. It is the only cross distro-store, which makes it easy to target all distros with minimal effort. Which alas... is only relevant if there will be a Linux release. But I really hope so, and it seams to be a good financial decision in models such as Kickstarter which allow customers to set their own price (see HIB statistics or comments on Kickstarter for W2, DFA)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Fuzzman009 on March 21, 2012, 05:10:11 pm
Also de-lurking to voice my excitement to contribute to this project.

-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

Some peaks into the mechanics behind the combat would be nice, like how well a particular build handles particular weapons, buffs and debuffs, things like that.

A case example of dealing with the group dynamics in the shelter would be awesome - like all the steps from

1. Finding out a plot against you
2. Seeing ways to deal with the situation
3. Confronting the people involved
4. The result of your choices.


-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)


16-18 months sounds good, I wouldn't mind if it took longer if bugs needed to be worked out (and we were told why/could see from the state of the beta).

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

Digital art work would be nice and a big box with an old school thick manual to wade through would be amazing but I understand that could be prohibitively expensive.

Depending on the pricing I would love to be able to blow myself up in-game  :).

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

Bi-monthly would be good


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Silver on March 21, 2012, 05:18:59 pm
Sorry, a bit off-topic, but I'm seeing many guys/girls who have been lurking here, making an account now to have a say. (including myself)
That ought to inspire :)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Brian on March 21, 2012, 05:29:38 pm
Sorry, a bit off-topic, but I'm seeing many guys/girls who have been lurking here, making an account now to have a say. (including myself)
That ought to inspire :)

We have noticed and it's awesome. We really appreciate it.

Depending on the pricing I would love to be able to blow myself up in-game  :).

That actually made me laugh out loud. Something to keep in mind as a reward...


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: SXX on March 21, 2012, 05:53:34 pm
I disagreee too,
1. it's now or never, you would be able to support both games as a kickstarter project usualy last at least 35 days or something like that, means you can contribute in the next month.
2. correct me if i'm wrong but Desura isn't secure if you want to sell games, better doing it through steam once it's released, cause through desusa, you just have to give everyone your key to the game to play which is the best way to have your game pirated (again correct me if i'm wrong)
1 - I spend lot on Wasteland, so I don't sure I'll have enough money.
I don't mean to wait long time, but as minimum before Wasteland 2 will be funded.
2 - Steam never helped to protect anything.
DRM its only way to fight against users who want to pay money.  ::)

And also there is no possible DRM for Linux (only Direct Rendering Manager) so I ask for Desura as alternative for Steam.
I paid $1000 to Wasteland 2 to have DRM-free Linux version and I sure I'm not alone with that.
Add anything like DRM to the game when some people paid lot of money not seems like a good idea.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Goweigus on March 21, 2012, 07:22:33 pm
Requiring steam would also help set up the Dead State community for the multiplayer expansion pack :P

*Anything more than a key code or steam activation is too much DRM


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: skuphundaku on March 21, 2012, 08:08:44 pm
I disagreee too,
1. it's now or never, you would be able to support both games as a kickstarter project usualy last at least 35 days or something like that, means you can contribute in the next month.
2. correct me if i'm wrong but Desura isn't secure if you want to sell games, better doing it through steam once it's released, cause through desusa, you just have to give everyone your key to the game to play which is the best way to have your game pirated (again correct me if i'm wrong)
1 - I spend lot on Wasteland, so I don't sure I'll have enough money.
I don't mean to wait long time, but as minimum before Wasteland 2 will be funded.
2 - Steam never helped to protect anything.
DRM its only way to fight against users who want to pay money.  ::)

And also there is no possible DRM for Linux (only Direct Rendering Manager) so I ask for Desura as alternative for Steam.
I paid $1000 to Wasteland 2 to have DRM-free Linux version and I sure I'm not alone with that.
Add anything like DRM to the game when some people paid lot of money not seems like a good idea.
I'm in the same boat here. Well, I spent just $250$350 (forgot the $100 I contributed to the RPG Codex $10,000 WL2 pledge) on WL2, but when you add up the $250 for The Banner Saga and the $100 for the Double Fine Adventure, I'm getting close to SXX's $1k. I wouldn't have even considered pledging, were it not for the DRM-free offers and Linux support. For all the people thinking that Steam is acceptable, I suggest documenting yourselves a bit better on the issues regarding DRM. It's not just about it being intrusive or not. It's about being able to play with or without an internet connection. It's about not having your bought and paid for games held hostage by Steam, which could take them all away on a whim (if you don't believe me, go read the EULA and then google some horror stories). It's about being able to install and play the game 10 years later, on a computer without an Internet connection, or after Valve went bankrupt and closed Steam down. And don't bother claiming that "Valve will never go bankrupt, Steam will be forever!" because stranger things have happened, and what you consider set in stone today may seem like a childish illusion tomorrow.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: DrunkZombie on March 21, 2012, 10:45:15 pm
16-18 months is good news and about what I was expecting.  Hopefully we can get you the funding to make it a reality.  I'd be willing to give some cash.  I'd like to see a demo of some dialogue and a bit of exploring/combat.  As far as rewards, I prefer things that will not distract from finishing the game.  Name in the credits, beta access, a copy of the game, merchandise, partying with the devs, etc... would all be cool.  Contributor zombies and npcs sound cool but I fear having to do extra custom work would slow the development down some.  Although I guess if the amount was high enough it might be worth it.

It was good to see an update.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Capital on March 22, 2012, 02:01:49 am
All of the people creating accounts has inspired me to create one as well. I've followed this game for a couple years and, checking here a couple days before this update, I thought the project was dead.

You guys have a very interesting game in the works. I just fear that there aren't a large number of people who are interested in such a game. I'm speaking from a younger demographic's point of view - 19 years old, white and living in a large, white town in Rhode Island. It's not a stretch to say that most gamers I know do not often play turn based PC games. However, many of them seem to crave games that can draw them in in an emotional way and survival games. What I'm getting at is that you should definitely emphasize your game's interpersonal and survival features, since that's what many kids like me are interested in. We're not as wealthy as some of the other demographics, like the well off 30 nostalgic somethings that seem to be all over this forum, but there's certainly strength in our numbers.

I have a feeling you were going to do this anyway, but with my new found voice in the forum I figure hell, might as well use it. As a hobbyist game developer, I can empathize with the hard work you put in only to be received by frustrating expectations from your community. I wish you guys the best of luck, and if I wasn't as starving and broke as I am, you would definitely receive a donation from me. Perhaps you take food stamps?


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on March 22, 2012, 03:35:03 am
(click to show/hide)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Nerv on March 22, 2012, 05:01:37 am
(click to show/hide)

*sigh*... what is your source (all web statistics are notoriously unreliable)

and more importantly whats your point?


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: SXX on March 22, 2012, 05:16:37 am
(click to show/hide)
LOLWUT?  Wikipedia as source of browser statistics? Something new!  :lol:

http://support.humblebundle.com/customer/portal/articles/281031-prior-bundle-statistics (http://support.humblebundle.com/customer/portal/articles/281031-prior-bundle-statistics)

(click to show/hide)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: SXX on March 22, 2012, 05:21:33 am
*sigh*... what your source (all web statistics are notoriously unreliable)
There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics (c)

PS: Some people can't give pledge by kickstarter but want to support project, so available donation in PayPal should by nice feature.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on March 22, 2012, 06:12:12 am
(click to show/hide)

*sigh*... what your source (all web statistics are notoriously unreliable)

and more importantly whats your point?

No point, just stating the obvious, lots of effort for a little population. Just stating, won't get into the whole drm + linux debate too.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Nerv on March 22, 2012, 07:21:00 am
No point, just stating the obvious, lots of effort for a little population. Just stating, won't get into the whole drm + linux debate too.

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp (http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp)

I hope you realize those are different Issues. While DRM has no love among the Linux crowd, it has very little love among gamers in general (except you apparently).

But since you admit you had no point lets just leave that discussion here and get back on topic...


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: oldschoolrpg on March 22, 2012, 07:49:31 am
I know fans would love to help see Dead State be completed. Too many great ideas or unfinished games have been scraped,we will help.Just point the way to the format to donate. I kicked in for Grim Dawn twice without a 2nd thought,if this is your type of game you dont mind helping out. Question for the Developers. How much percentage wise is the game to completion ? I honestly thought the game was going to be scrapped early on. No offence guys but watch the way main stream gaming was going Dead State seemed to good to be true.Realisticly i dont plan on seeing Dead State icon on my PC before 2014. No worries, as long as its the type of game i can replay in 2030.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: tommykosh on March 22, 2012, 08:01:58 am
i find this game after i played the board game dead state, so i m very interesting about it, i ve make a small notice of a fantasie where the world was run over from undead and only few people are stay in a house in a city, so they barricade the nearest road and start to clean the city ( they use the green gras areas around the houses and the part to plant vegetables and so go on / breaking in to a garden center where they get the stuff for solarpower and windpower parts ).
they save people they are alone or in small groups to complette the group to defense the dead.

i was stunning that there is a rpg in doing by other guys, so i check this site so many time, but like soooo many other good start i had think the project was dead.

so i think a kickstarter game will be great , but read my stuff in my other post.

Better a part of the game that can be upgraded with more stuff to make it larger bigger anytime complette.



Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Vander on March 22, 2012, 09:08:03 am
My response will be simple: While i am very interested in your project, i am not interested in the least about funding your game via kickstarter.

Why? Because if i take the risk of funding a project without any inssurance of the game quality, or even that the game will be out one day, i expect to have a cut of the profits, scaled by how much i have paid of course, like any investment. Kickstarter dont do that.

Don't get me wrong Brian, i love the work that you did in the past. And if the game is any good, i will buy it full price when its released. But putting my money on it before the game is out? I dont do that even with big publisher's games, wich are practically certain to be released, and if they are not i will be reimbursed. If your game is not released, i lost all my money. And for the risk i will be rewarded with what?
A cheaper game if i put the minimum? Yeah but i am not sure the game will be good.
A few goodies if i put more? Not interested in that.
Exclusive content? Even worse, that will put me off to buy the game althogether.

But right now, asking for funding a game on kickstarter is like to demand your players to be take the same risk as a publisher, at a smaller scale, but witout any financial reward, nor any influence on the content. Its a pretty bad deal.

Or i misunderstood how kickstarter work completly


I will also point out that even if you have a reputation, and a good one, you company does not. Tha amount of money put on some project is staggering, but they are names that are far more known than yours.



Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: almondblight on March 22, 2012, 09:32:44 am
Because if i take the risk of funding a project without any inssurance of the game quality, or even that the game will be out one day, i expect to have a cut of the profits, scaled by how much i have paid of course, like any investment. Kickstarter dont do that.
...
And for the risk i will be rewarded with what?
A cheaper game if i put the minimum? Yeah but i am not sure the game will be good.

Eh, "buy the game for full price at $25 and we'll give you $10 back when we're rich" is the same as "buy the game for $15." And you have to add in the ability to get the kind of game you like funded, without the risk of giving large amounts of money. You're right that there is a risk with these things, as there is to some extent whenever you buy games (you might not like them). You have to decide if it's worth it to you, but the lower tiers tend to be pretty reasonable.

All the suggestions in this thread so far have been pretty good. The only thing I have to add is:

1. I'd also like a Mac version.

2. Getting a lot of media buzz about the game before the Kickstarter is a must. Look at the reactions at RPS about this. Many of them are basically, "Oh, I completely forgot about this game, but yeah, it sounds awesome."


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Silver on March 22, 2012, 09:54:42 am
My response will be simple: While i am very interested in your project, i am not interested in the least about funding your game via kickstarter.

Why? Because if i take the risk of funding a project without any inssurance of the game quality, or even that the game will be out one day, i expect to have a cut of the profits, scaled by how much i have paid of course, like any investment. Kickstarter dont do that.

Quote

But right now, asking for funding a game on kickstarter is like to demand your players to be take the same risk as a publisher, at a smaller scale, but witout any financial reward, nor any influence on the content. Its a pretty bad deal.

Or i misunderstood how kickstarter work completly

Yes, you misunderstood it.

The whole point of KS is to have a good faith in the project and giving heads up to devs.
btw: If the pledged amount of $$$ isn't reached money will be given back.

you just have to choose
a) take the risk and support the game and hope it comes out best possible
b) won't take the risk, take the risk they still have the resources to make the game and then buy full game

Another major point of Kickstarter is that the community should be in a good relationship with developers and devs actually listen the feedback they get.

This is made easier because big companies that are usually investing money in games demand their whatnot stuff in the game, which has shown over the time goes against devs and fans will at  too often. (a la let's cut content out of the game (day1 DLCs), this is sexy atm, we want this in the game, what ? More silly conversations? Cut the deeper backstory, more bigger boobs n blood if I have to write a lame and hyperbolic example)

It's better to have two-sided relationship from givers to takers than have a third party there trying to cut their pofits and spoiling the devs <-> gamers relationship through that.



Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Legionair on March 22, 2012, 10:38:35 am
OK I chose not to read any one else reply until I have done my own. I did not want their Ideas to influence mine. So if what I offer is what has already been said so be it.

-A last stand VS zombies.  A unwindable scenarios where we have a fairly skilled group that can hold their own but No way to survive.  Have it start slow so We can get our footing, maybe even let it start with some combat VS another Human group that draws the Zombies to us.

-This is hard to answer. I want it tomorrow.  But I am good with you taking all the time needed. I can wait a lifetime for a great game.  But I feel that it maybe should be no more then a year after the end of the Kick-starter that the game is launched or at least very close to launch.

- Low level $10 just simple game access.  20+ Beta access. 100+   Random Named zombies after us.  500+ NPC named after us.  1000+ Group members named after us.

-Bi monthly  with content would be nice.  It depends on the updates just a check in with no new info is fine but if it is that with no new info make it weekly.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: foda500 on March 22, 2012, 11:17:22 am
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

I'm more than ready to drop some cash in this game, but giving an example of how my decisions would affect my playthrough would be nice.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

Fall 2014

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

A nice old school box would be nice, but not sure if it's doable for you guys.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

Bi-monthly with a decent amount of content.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: arkhometha on March 22, 2012, 12:40:50 pm
Shut up and take my money, Brian.

But answering your question:
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)
I'd give my money right away, but some combat, dialog, inventory and choice and consequence footage would be nice.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)
18 to 24 months from the end of the funding.
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)
Boxed game. NPC, name in credits, zombie named, your home designed there, that kind of stuff.
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)
Every two months, lots of contents and some pics would be nice.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Steelgrave on March 22, 2012, 12:46:11 pm
Hi Brian. I'm a moderator on two gaming sites and I want you to know that a lot of folks are keeping an eye on Dead State. This game comes up every time a zombie game is mentioned on a thread and always with anticipation. You have a lot of unique ideas and I've been waiting for a chance to contribute via Kickstarter. Simply knowing that it's not vaporware and that it is still being worked on will encourage a lot of us to contribute, I'm betting! Frankly, I'll contribute day one and will encourage others to do the same.

As for your questions on release dates, eh....when it's done works for me. Nothing will kill Dead State (no pun intended) quicker than releasing a game before it's done (Sword of the Stars II or almost anything by Paradox comes to mind). Rewards? My name and face on a zombie or NPC is a great idea (and the zombie would require little touch up from my face now, heh heh), an extra starting item or two for lesser contributions maybe. Fallen Earth (before it sucked) offered extra weapons or clothing items when you purchased a better start up, maybe you could do the same for Kickstarter levels.

Whatever you decide, I think Kickstarter is a move in the right direction. Keep that momentum going! And hey, with the popularity of The Walking Dead going gangbusters, your timing is right. Dear God, if you could somehow get the game out as the third season of Walking Dead kicks off, or even by the finale, what timing!

Good luck. And please, take my money :)



Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: arkhometha on March 22, 2012, 01:05:03 pm
Also, NO DRM.
And I support the ideas of ports, only after the PC version, since it's the biggest market. Do like Fargo did with Wasteland 2 and add Mac and Linux ports if the kickstarter breach certain funding goals.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Continuity on March 22, 2012, 02:52:33 pm
The main problem I have at this point Brian, is that Dead state hasn't been getting the full attention of your team.  Who is your team anyway? We need some assurance that you guys can get this done and know what you're getting yourselves into.  Double fine have Tim Schafer leading their project and are an established studio, inxile have Brian Fargo leading their project and are also an established studio... Those are two names/studios I know and trust and are easily worth the $80 I put toward those games.
We know that you Brian were the lead writer on Bloodlines, and that's a good start but it takes more than a writer to design, develop and produce a game.

Sorry If I sound harsh but we've been waiting quite a while on this game and by your own admission its been basically a side project.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Brian on March 22, 2012, 05:01:11 pm
The main problem I have at this point Brian, is that Dead state hasn't been getting the full attention of your team. 
Allow me to clear things up, since I've been seeing these comments on other boards.

The team has had their reasons, but mostly it came down to eating, paying the bills, life happening, etc. We haven't had much in the way of a budget and most everybody has been contributing in their spare time. When the team has to work full-time to pay the bills so they can work on the game, it leaves them fewer hours to finish their tasks. This can lead to problems where Team Member A can't proceed until Team Member B finishes their work, which could be a few days to a week or more depending on how busy they are at their full-time job, contract work, etc. The conclusion - we need to be able to finance full-time work from the leads and major contributors so that we can all give Dead State our full attention and get it out in a reasonable time.

Because the longer we go without work being turned out quickly, the more we get comments like "why isn't the game out?", "what's taking so long?", "the game is dead/vaporware!" and the like, which kills morale and will probably hurt interest and sales. If it was just me on the project, finances wouldn't be an issue, but there are two other leads and at least ten other regular contributors in the other departments that we depend on for art, levels, models, and other tasks. 

Quote
Who is your team anyway?
You can read the FAQ for more info, but more or less, we have had around the same 10 people contributing to the game since it entered actual production. That doesn't mean they have been working on the game every single week since we started the game, but they have done as much as they could when they had the spare time. Considering how much content goes into an RPG, we've made pretty good progress, but there's a lot still to do.

Our art and programming leads, Oscar and Nick, have been on the project since we started, but for a long time they have been focused on getting Age of Decadence out too. They just released the AoD Public Beta Demo today. Many of the programming assets are shared with Dead State, although we're using a newer version of the engine. Ivan, who did the animations, is also on our project.

You'll see more of everyone's work in the next few weeks.

Quote
We need some assurance that you guys can get this done and know what you're getting yourselves into.  Double fine have Tim Schafer leading their project and are an established studio, inxile have Brian Fargo leading their project and are also an established studio... Those are two names/studios I know and trust and are easily worth the $80 I put toward those games.
We could have launched a Kickstarter at the start of the project and even talked about doing so last year. I wanted to make sure that we had enough to show off and that we would all have the time to get a Kickstarter demo build into shape. In my opinion, we made the responsible move and are waiting until we have more content that represents the final game. Financing the game doesn't just allow us to work on it full-time - it is a definitive commitment to the community and to our patrons that we are going to deliver the game at a specified arrival date. I wouldn't make that commitment unless we were absolutely sure we could honor it.  I'm talking to the team about our Kickstarter production schedule now, but we have had most of the game designed and laid out for months. You can take a look at the list of updates we've made to get a better sense of what we're making and how the game plays - that's more than a lot of projects on Kickstarter have right now.

In the last few weeks, the leads have been working on the build nearly full-time. A huge amount of progress has been made and it's looking great. Again, we'll be showing more off before we even start our Kickstarter project.
Quote
We know that you Brian were the lead writer on Bloodlines, and that's a good start but it takes more than a writer to design, develop and produce a game.
It does, which is why I'm not working on it alone. Also, while I'm known as a writer, I've also worked on all aspects of design and early development of creative and system design on other projects. I've been involved in hiring, production aspects, promotion, cameras, casting - you name it, I've probably had to do it at one point. And that's not counting the skills I've had to develop over the years to do an indie project.

Additionally, it takes time. We've wrote about it before, but RPGs are some of the most time-consuming games to make. There's as much writing as a book, but with the addition of the whole design aspect. There are more systems to allow players to play the game according to their character's skills. There are unique features such as the shelter gameplay, morale, and noise systems that need to be tested and proven. There is the scavenging/survival aspect that requires lots of locations and loot balance. It's a very long process, even for a fully funded team. Some of this is done already, so we're mostly looking for funding to pick up the pace and bring the game out quicker.

Quote
Sorry If I sound harsh but we've been waiting quite a while on this game and by your own admission its been basically a side project.
It's not harsh - you're a potential patron and you want to know what you're getting into. I'm as skeptical as you about most projects.

We announced pretty early in the pre-production process, and that was probably a mistake, but we mostly needed to bring awareness to our project to find people to fill roles on it. Most people didn't start until early 2010, and there have been times in the last two years when we've had lean months. But we're being transparent about it, whereas most companies aren't going to tell you when they have hit snags. It happens for many games, you just don't hear about it. Devs might go dark for months or years without saying anything - we are being upfront about our situation. As for waiting quite a while, here's a list of some full-funded, fully-staffed games that have had that problem:

Dragon Age (Started production 2004, released end of 2009)
Diablo 3 (At least 2005-ish to... 2012)
Final Fantasy 12 (5 years development from announcement)
Fallout 3 (2004-ish to 2008)

There are a lot more, that's just off the top of my head. Anyhow, development takes time.

This post wasn't really aimed at Continuity, but he brought up some pretty good points. I hope this helped clear some issues up. If not, please share your concerns with us.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: TheTuninator on March 22, 2012, 05:29:25 pm
Thanks for such transparency about developmental issues! It's really great to see devs engage with their fanbases.

Again, I can't stress enough that you really should promote your status as Bloodlines' writer quite heavily; I'd consider that title far more than a "good start" when it comes to an RPG like Dead State aims to be, personally. Lots of people played and loved Vampire, in no small part due to your writing; that's absolutely going to be your best possible way to draw in new customers, as well as a great tool for potential backers.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: RussellClank on March 22, 2012, 05:45:06 pm
Quote
Sorry If I sound harsh but we've been waiting quite a while on this game and by your own admission its been basically a side project.
It's not harsh - you're a potential patron and you want to know what you're getting into. I'm as skeptical as you about most projects.

We announced pretty early in the pre-production process, and that was probably a mistake, but we mostly needed to bring awareness to our project to find people to fill roles on it. Most people didn't start until early 2010, and there have been times in the last two years when we've had lean months. But we're being transparent about it, whereas most companies aren't going to tell you when they have hit snags. It happens for many games, you just don't hear about it. Devs might go dark for months or years without saying anything - we are being upfront about our situation. As for waiting quite a while, here's a list of some full-funded, fully-staffed games that have had that problem:

Dragon Age (Started production 2004, released end of 2009)
Diablo 3 (At least 2005-ish to... 2012)
Final Fantasy 12 (5 years development from announcement)
Fallout 3 (2004-ish to 2008)

There are a lot more, that's just off the top of my head. Anyhow, development takes time.

This post wasn't really aimed at Continuity, but he brought up some pretty good points. I hope this helped clear some issues up. If not, please share your concerns with us.

DUKE NUKEM FOREVER which took 15 years to develop:  From 1996 to 2011.  Unfortuinately it was so terrible that it shouldn't have even been completed and it forever ruined Duke Nukem. :wallbang: Just proof that some series need to quit while they're ahead rather than be dead.
But that's an entirely different game with entirely different people!  :)

I really think the people on here complaining should see that fact, and realize that you guys on Dead State are doing so much better.  You told us what's going on.  Many of us can relate.  I'm a fiction writer, I have hard times, and when I'm not writing, it's either because I have no creative juice or I'm so busy there's just no time for it.  And revealing a novel before it's finished is a pretty bad thing to do, lol.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Silver on March 22, 2012, 07:53:00 pm
Quote
Sorry If I sound harsh but we've been waiting quite a while on this game and by your own admission its been basically a side project.
It's not harsh - you're a potential patron and you want to know what you're getting into. I'm as skeptical as you about most projects.

We announced pretty early in the pre-production process, and that was probably a mistake, but we mostly needed to bring awareness to our project to find people to fill roles on it. Most people didn't start until early 2010, and there have been times in the last two years when we've had lean months. But we're being transparent about it, whereas most companies aren't going to tell you when they have hit snags. It happens for many games, you just don't hear about it. Devs might go dark for months or years without saying anything - we are being upfront about our situation. As for waiting quite a while, here's a list of some full-funded, fully-staffed games that have had that problem:

Dragon Age (Started production 2004, released end of 2009)
Diablo 3 (At least 2005-ish to... 2012)
Final Fantasy 12 (5 years development from announcement)
Fallout 3 (2004-ish to 2008)

There are a lot more, that's just off the top of my head. Anyhow, development takes time.

This post wasn't really aimed at Continuity, but he brought up some pretty good points. I hope this helped clear some issues up. If not, please share your concerns with us.

DUKE NUKEM FOREVER which took 15 years to develop:  From 1996 to 2011.  Unfortuinately it was so terrible that it shouldn't have even been completed and it forever ruined Duke Nukem. :wallbang: Just proof that some series need to quit while they're ahead rather than be dead.
But that's an entirely different game with entirely different people!  :)

I really think the people on here complaining should see that fact, and realize that you guys on Dead State are doing so much better.  You told us what's going on.  Many of us can relate.  I'm a fiction writer, I have hard times, and when I'm not writing, it's either because I have no creative juice or I'm so busy there's just no time for it.  And revealing a novel before it's finished is a pretty bad thing to do, lol.

Shit! I hoped the Duke Nukem example will be avoided  :lol:


Title: My ideas about crowd funding
Post by: SXX on March 22, 2012, 08:03:24 pm
This post wasn't really aimed at Continuity, but he brought up some pretty good points. I hope this helped clear some issues up. If not, please share your concerns with us.
You need to prepare well before start kickstarter project.
I see few extremely important things for successful funding:

1 - Make good video and description of project.
I think project start is most important moment in all funding period.
Some projects doesn't got pledges because they wasn't described well or had boring video.
You need to explain why your game better than am and why it need funded!

2 - You need to be more socialized: twitter, official page in facebook.
Tim Schafer was very successful because he's well connected with his fans:
http://twitter.com/# (http://twitter.com/#)!/timoflegend
Brian Fargo well known person in Fallout/RPG related communities like NMA or RPGCodex, he is founder of Interplay.

3 - Project need some support from other well known people.
I'm just programmer and I can give my $30, but I can't make lot of advertising of any kickstarter project.
I sure Markus Persson  aka @notch make a big contribution in Double Fine Adventure and Wasteland 2 success.

4 - You need be prepared to different questions: about rewards, shipping costs, taxes, payments by paypal and virtual credit cards.
I'm live in the UK and can buy anything from USA without taxes up to £600.
But situation in Germany/Finland is different and people want to know which cost goes on package or it can go as a gift.
They want to give you $500, but they won't pay 30% tax.
I sure there is lot of other question which you can see in comments of other kickstarter projects.
You need check problems of other project before create your.

5 - Rewards should be interesting.
First I pledged $265 for Wasteland, but after linux port announce (with $1,500,000 tier) I upped my pledge to $315.
There was a $1000 position to beign an NPC, location or weapon and all 100 was engadeg in first three days (? i think three, yes).
But few days ago one of them freed... And I took it! YES!
I was very happy because its extremely cool to add something in old-school RPG game.
Being a part of old-school game is much better than getting some physical stuff.

6 - As Linux and Mac user I want to ask you to think about cross-platform development before publication of project.
Windows have biggest percentage of market, but this percentages is office workers, housewives and other casual people.
Mac/Linux users that just 10%, but most of us are enthusiasts of our platform.
E.g all Linux users is very active internet users or IT-specialists.
If you announce information about Linux/Mac release at start you will get extra advertising on specialised community's, lot disciussions and more activity related to your project.
Probably its a good idea to make something tier like $1,500,000 for cross platform release like Fargo did for Wasteland 2.
Its motivate people like me give a big pledges to support this cross platform project.
And it doesn't damage you if you got just $1.2 million but not $1.5 million.

7 - Check some alternative for Steam.
DRM-free version and Desura release will be great for people who wont get DRM installed.

That all just my 50c and imho, I have no time for dispute about my ideas.
Thank for reading and sorry for my English (I'm russian), but I really wish to see success of this project.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: DrunkZombie on March 22, 2012, 10:00:52 pm
I am interested in how modable the game will be.  I am not talking about some kind of mod toolkit or something but about what things are not hardcoded and instead are in files that we can access.  While I look forward to playing your game and experience your vision and story, at some point it will be nice to change things and extend the life of the game.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: mrwasabi90 on March 23, 2012, 01:02:38 am
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)
A gameplay video that contains a small plot arc is always nice, similar to the E3 Bioshock Infinite video.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)
-Summer of 2013 would be good. The summers are always kind of a wasteland when it comes to the triple-A releases, and something like this would be just the thing to keep me busy.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)
-Prices are up to you, but something that would be interesting to me is a boxed hard copy of the game as opposed to a simple digital download like everyone else.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)
Once or twice a month would be fine, just as long as you guys keep it to a regular schedule.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Continuity on March 23, 2012, 04:33:30 pm
Brian, thanks for such a full and forthright response, and I think I was a bit blunt at least if not harsh.  To be frank I've been very impressed by the number of updates and by the level of your involvement on the forums here.  I'm still very much looking forward to Dead State but more than that I'm looking forward to seeing your work! I'm probably not the only one who first found out about DoubleBear and Dead State by clicking on your name on the Bloodlines wiki page.

RPG's do take a lot of time to make and I think most RPG fans appreciate that, I'm sure that the majority feel exactly as I do, that we would rather an RPG take 5 years and fulfil its potential than come out sooner with thin content, balance issues, or lots of quest bugs.  What I think we're really concerned about is that so many great sounding RPGs get canned, and so many of the great RPG developers have folded.. in fact its probably only Obsidian left that I really trust to make great RPGs.  I guess i'm just saying that the fans get nervous which probably fuels a lot of the negative comments you see and you shouldn't pay too much attention to that.



Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: hama on March 23, 2012, 10:32:15 pm
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)
Dialogue. (Screenshots) The graphics and top-down view won't be the selling point. Hell I don't expect much combat-wise. Reason I'm still waiting for this game is because I wan't to meet interesting characters and have a great (mature) conversation, like I did in Bloodlines. So show me a conversation between characters. A variety would be good from squabble to " Ah I wish I could eat ____ ".

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)
2014 December. I can wait longer though.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)
15:Digital copy and access to a private discussion community.

19:Previous + a chance to win the highest reward. (A lottery, I would say 1 maybe 2 winners max)

25:Previous + Digital game soundtrack + Pdf book:Concept Art, developer bios, script, drawings, scrapped ideas, How was this game made? etc

100:Previous + Boxed copy + Manual + Zombie survival guide. Well some ppl just like to collect things. Name a price that won't put you in a hard place.
                     + thanks in the credits

?:Previous + signed Poster + signed Hardcover Book. Limited.

1000:Previous + Become a zombie NPC (picture needed). + 5 digital copies. Limited.

1200:Previous + Become a human NPC (picture needed) + Get a survivor spork that you can use to eat or fight with. (I mean a real spork). You get the choice to become either zombie or human NPC. Limited.
 
1500:Previous + Put an item in the game with your description(weapon, armor, tool, food, cloth, liquor, book, jewelry etc. must be small enouth to fit in the inventory) Limited.

10,000 or more:Previous + Join a survival camp with the devs... but I can see you guys hate this idea. So make it a party with the devs. Limited.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)
Once a month? I'm not too bothered about it. I think it would be more effective if you showed yourself more on the 'private discussion community' of the backers. Just a short comment now and then to show us that you are listening.
What would I like to see? A good overview of the system. How does the game work? How do I keep my men sane? How do I preserve/get food? Any unique perks like master chef? Can I have survivor A and B in my team at the same time? (Will ppl get along?) What kind of stats does the game use?


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: rist on March 24, 2012, 08:11:06 am
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

Show some of your more creative weapon/creature-specific fatalities. One of the key elements of zombie media is the gory fatality, inflicted on both the living and dead.

Make sure that any female characters in the promo material are A) Fully-clothed B) Gritty C) Brave and D) Bereft of D-cups.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

People love to shuffle around and groan like Zombies. It's hard to incorporate someone's zombie shuffle into the game but you could definitely make room for some funder-submitted Zombie groans, either submitted electronically or recorded at your studio. Obviously it'd be a pricey reward but I think it'd get publicity and have a lot of appeal.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: TailSwallower on March 24, 2012, 10:51:21 am
People love to shuffle around and groan like Zombies. It's hard to incorporate someone's zombie shuffle into the game but you could definitely make room for some funder-submitted Zombie groans, either submitted electronically or recorded at your studio. Obviously it'd be a pricey reward but I think it'd get publicity and have a lot of appeal.

I'm pretty sure I've suggested this previously just as something the community can do for shits and giggles, so yeah, I think it could be a good idea for the Kickstarter. The only problem I can see is making sure people are recording the audio in the correct format, at a good enough quality.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: DoesntExist on March 25, 2012, 11:05:14 am
Before I tackle the questions below, I do want to reiterate what others have been saying here, the fact that you were the lead writer on Bloodlines quite frankly does very much matter to the RPG crowd.  Emphasize that, (and other industry experience), Fargo was remembered for Wasteland, you are for Bloodlines, and with ample reason I might add.  I'd be willing to wager a fair portion of those interested in Dead State are looking for similar elements from your prior work, such as excellent, in-depth, and colorful writing.  And attention to RPG elements, among other aspects.

On an unrelated note, provide incentives for surpassing the minimum required funding.  Fargo asked for $900,000, but he also stated that if the funding was surpassed the dev team would expand the world, and generally add more depth to the game.  Declaring the same wouldn't hurt.  Also, if the minimum is far exceeded, perhaps add that attention to a small portion of high-quality voice acting for plot-important characters would be considered (emphasizing Bloodlines again here wouldn't, I know I'm shameless).

-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

The dialogue system, choices and consequences, a sample of the game engine.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

Towards the end of 2013, I guess.  Too long and it becomes like stale water in an ewer.

-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

Go with what works, I say.  Originality counts for little if no one is interested in it.  As someone mentioned regular updates for some of the higher tier rewards seems worthwhile.  The blowing yourself up in-game would be awesome, too.  A random thought, at the higher levels maybe offer an exclusive quest (or at least, timed-exclusive).  Just a suggestion, there are better ones I'm sure.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

At least every month for public, sizeable updates.

Finally, I just want to add that this is excellent news.  I'm ecstatic that the DS team is considering kickstarter.  I think it's one of the few ways this game will be released in a suitable time frame.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Annie on March 25, 2012, 01:55:12 pm
Make sure that any female characters in the promo material are A) Fully-clothed B) Gritty C) Brave and D) Bereft of D-cups.

As a female, designer on the project, AND Brian's spouse, I can assure you there will be no scantily-clad vixens bouncing their jugs all over our promos. (Sorry if this is something anyone might be looking forward to. If you want that, I can refer you to the REST OF THE INTERNET <3) ;)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Anonxeuix on March 25, 2012, 02:11:55 pm
Make sure that any female characters in the promo material are A) Fully-clothed B) Gritty C) Brave and D) Bereft of D-cups.

As a female, designer on the project, AND Brian's spouse, I can assure you there will be no scantily-clad vixens bouncing their jugs all over our promos. (Sorry if this is something anyone might be looking forward to. If you want that, I can refer you to the REST OF THE INTERNET <3) ;)

What about stripper zombies? Is this prejudice against strippers?!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Tigranes on March 25, 2012, 03:22:28 pm
I'm not that excited about Dead State in terms of setting/vision/etc, but I'd like to see it succeed and would probably buy it. That said, you guys have not updated in a while, and I think it would be reasonable to want to see some updates and signs of progress between now and when Kickstarter begins. With Double Fine, inXile and even the Banner Saga people this is not as much an issue; accurate or not, from the consumer point of view there's a lot more reasons to be wary of vapourware or sub-par end products from DoubleBear as it is new and small.

-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)
Personally, just a clear, concise, memorable and professional presentation of the main vision for the game (which is clear enough to me having read many updates, but Kickstarter is different). DS has enough in it to sound like an interesting and unique game if you do that.

-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)
End of 2013 seems reasonable, if you hear the number 2014 people might think it's too far away in the future.

-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)
Updates don't need to be complicated or gigantic; e.g. Paradox' dev diaries are pretty short, while I felt AOD sometimes overdoes it by giving themselves too much work on that front. I would like to see monthly updates that you guys do not miss (rather than weekly updates that are missed).

Good luck with it all and I'd probably throw in at least $10.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Ruinous on March 26, 2012, 03:20:19 pm
SXX, are you sure about point 4? I remember buying UO collector's edition way back when it launched. I got hit with both import duty and vat, nigh on doubling the cost of the game. Given I was on something like £3/hr it was a hell of a kick in the teeth... playing the game on a dial-up, paying for my internet access by the minute and getting the quarterly bill was heart-attack inducing for a 20(ish) year old. Ahh the good old days.

Now it is anything over £15 and you'll get hit with import VAT, plus customs duty if it is £135+. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/post/buying.htm (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/customs/post/buying.htm)
This poses a problem for large donations unless the packaging clearly indicates the 'value' of the goods is not what has been pledged. Got to be ever so careful with this kind of thing ;)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: SSH83 on March 26, 2012, 08:03:43 pm
Personally, I don't need to see anything more to plunk down $1k/yr forever.  If we want gaming to become a true platform of art, we need to keep all the best artists alive, no questions asked.  However...

For the Kickstarter, I think The vision fiction would make a great opening pitch.  Kickstarter is about selling visions, idea, and dream.  I don't think a POC may be a good idea because people don't understand the meaning of WIP.  People will judge Double Bear by the demo AS IF IT IS THE FINISHED PRODUCT.   So unless the demo is going to be polished and amazing... that may not be good for Kickstarter.  Maybe start with no demo and see how it goes at first.

Although I think Doublefine and Wasteland 2 success were 99% due to fan-base nostalgia.  Double Bear's Dead State does not have much of that.   I think regular crowdsourcing method should be used in addition to Kickstarter, ala Project Zomboid and Minecraft.  Release alpha (version 0 that does basic premise really well) to people who pre-order, then expand expand expand, slowly building fanbase and let it grow organically.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: rist on March 27, 2012, 04:21:24 am
As a female, designer on the project, AND Brian's spouse

Cool! Coincidentally, I'm about to play Storms of Zehir.

What the...Obsidian are working on a South Park game? I don't understand that company sometimes.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: catmorbid on March 27, 2012, 08:46:55 am
Make sure that any female characters in the promo material are A) Fully-clothed B) Gritty C) Brave and D) Bereft of D-cups.

As a female, designer on the project, AND Brian's spouse, I can assure you there will be no scantily-clad vixens bouncing their jugs all over our promos. (Sorry if this is something anyone might be looking forward to. If you want that, I can refer you to the REST OF THE INTERNET <3) ;)

What about stripper zombies? Is this prejudice against strippers?!

I personally find the thought of being both revolted and aroused at the same time an interesting mix of emotions   :lol:


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Dymlit on April 02, 2012, 03:37:23 am
Doublebear seems to being going in the right direction. Slowly? Perhaps. But Rome wasn't built overnight. This game is something that alot of people have been looking forward to for a long time and to compromise it even by a little would be an injustice to us all. So stay the course, take your time and keep the spirit of the game at the forefront.


I do have one question? Why cant yall sell mechandise? I understand thats sounds silly but the crazy thing is, i would buy a 20-30 dollar T-shirt knowing that the money directly funded the game. You already have Designs/logos. You make two different shirt disigns and you get 50 dollars from me.....




Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: MaximillionMiles on April 02, 2012, 08:24:05 am
I do have one question? Why cant yall sell mechandise? I understand thats sounds silly but the crazy thing is, i would buy a 20-30 dollar T-shirt knowing that the money directly funded the game. You already have Designs/logos. You make two different shirt disigns and you get 50 dollars from me.....

They already do. (http://www.cafepress.com/doublebear) If I would venture a guess, it's not enough though. They only get part of the money from their sales, and there's not a gigantic fanbase, nor is doublebear an established studio (yet).


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Ruinous on April 02, 2012, 11:13:34 pm
Rist, reading between the not so subtle lines I get the impression Obsidian is really struggling to stay an active concern so I'd guess they'll take any and every opportunity to keep employed which falls their way.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Colt on April 03, 2012, 08:32:11 am
To toss in a couple simple points:

After having developed a game I'll say that my standard of a team's ability to put out a finished product is: AI. A proof of competent AI programming is pretty much a requirement for investment (and one that even many big budge teams utterly fail at). That's usually the one catch that can stop a game from coming out or destroy a game's fanbase when a beta comes out.

More important to me in the game is your ability to write and produce an immersive story and atmosphere, though, and that's the bulk of what I like to see in updates beyond just proof of function.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on April 03, 2012, 08:43:47 am
To toss in a couple simple points:

After having developed a game I'll say that my standard of a team's ability to put out a finished product is: AI. A proof of competent AI programming is pretty much a requirement for investment (and one that even many big budge teams utterly fail at). That's usually the one catch that can stop a game from coming out or destroy a game's fanbase when a beta comes out.

More important to me in the game is your ability to write and produce an immersive story and atmosphere, though, and that's the bulk of what I like to see in updates beyond just proof of function.

Regarding AI - maybe not quite the same as a Dead State demo, but you can check out the AI in the Age of Decadence demo - Nick is the programmer on both teams, and i think you will find that he is competent in putting together a decent AI.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Oscar on April 03, 2012, 09:47:01 am
To toss in a couple simple points:

After having developed a game I'll say that my standard of a team's ability to put out a finished product is: AI. A proof of competent AI programming is pretty much a requirement for investment (and one that even many big budge teams utterly fail at). That's usually the one catch that can stop a game from coming out or destroy a game's fanbase when a beta comes out.

More important to me in the game is your ability to write and produce an immersive story and atmosphere, though, and that's the bulk of what I like to see in updates beyond just proof of function.

Regarding AI - maybe not quite the same as a Dead State demo, but you can check out the AI in the Age of Decadence demo - Nick is the programmer on both teams, and i think you will find that he is competent in putting together a decent AI.

And we are still adding some more improvements to it.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Nerv on April 04, 2012, 04:42:26 pm
As everyone predicted, Kickstarter is now starting to get quiet a lot of games. Those which give a clear vision and/or have an experienced Team seem to be getting funding pretty quickly, even with all the competition. 

There is even a Zombie game (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sandswept/the-dead-linger (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sandswept/the-dead-linger)). Its not direct competition however as it seems to be more focused on an open world sandbox survival (kind of a Project Zomboid in 3d)...


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Praudmur on April 07, 2012, 04:56:27 am
Hi all! I think that it would be wise to wait a few weeks so 90% of big projects that attract attention of "common" people on Kickstarter will achieve funding. There is wave of projects and i for example don't have money to support all 10 projects that i like.  I think that projects like http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/807779870/bionite-origins (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/807779870/bionite-origins)  with  Indie-developers chose wrong time, haven't prepared good view of project, don't have funny/horror video  ...
Or this one http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/355932838/crowdsourced-hardcore-tactical-shooter?ref=history (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/355932838/crowdsourced-hardcore-tactical-shooter?ref=history)  when goal was achieved in last minutes.  So all is IMHO but i registered just to say this ) Wish you good luck.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on April 07, 2012, 08:47:16 am
Hi all! I think that it would be wise to wait a few weeks so 90% of big projects that attract attention of "common" people on Kickstarter will achieve funding. There is wave of projects and i for example don't have money to support all 10 projects that i like.  I think that projects like http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/807779870/bionite-origins (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/807779870/bionite-origins)  with  Indie-developers chose wrong time, haven't prepared good view of project, don't have funny/horror video  ...
Or this one http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/355932838/crowdsourced-hardcore-tactical-shooter?ref=history (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/355932838/crowdsourced-hardcore-tactical-shooter?ref=history)  when goal was achieved in last minutes.  So all is IMHO but i registered just to say this ) Wish you good luck.

There's gonna be a shitload of new project as interesting in the coming weeks, so i don't think delaying would be wise anyhow. But as you said, the kickstarter page should be as complete as possible with a video introducing elements of the game in order to proove people they're right to be confident in you


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Praudmur on April 08, 2012, 07:26:03 am
Ok. I read many comments to kickstarter projects - people don't like when fist award is  just a beta version only . They think that developer want them to pay for testing and not about that developer give them a chance to improve project. And i think that if there will be award that give a chance to beta test game it must not come alone maybe with digital poster or something like that. BTW Wasteland 2 awards starts only with 15$ there is no small awards but in other projects  i saw 5$ awards (like in bionite). Well you should think about that  :)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on April 09, 2012, 03:46:38 am
Ok. I read many comments to kickstarter projects - people don't like when fist award is  just a beta version only . They think that developer want them to pay for testing and not about that developer give them a chance to improve project. And i think that if there will be award that give a chance to beta test game it must not come alone maybe with digital poster or something like that. BTW Wasteland 2 awards starts only with 15$ there is no small awards but in other projects  i saw 5$ awards (like in bionite). Well you should think about that  :)

Smaller awards without game in it, doesn't represent a lot of money (5 to 10 backers)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Voron86rus on April 09, 2012, 07:11:33 am
Hello! I am writing from North Russia  :) keep up your game a long time.
Ready to send 30 dollar a month (more salary does not allow  :()
if it somehow helps Projects
P.S. Google translator :D


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Oscar on April 09, 2012, 08:46:07 am
Hello! I am writing from North Russia  :) keep up your game a long time.
Ready to send 30 dollar a month (more salary does not allow  :()
if it somehow helps Projects
P.S. Google translator :D

You are a true patriot :salute:


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Goweigus on April 09, 2012, 06:54:23 pm
Hello! I am writing from North Russia  :) keep up your game a long time.
Ready to send 30 dollar a month (more salary does not allow  :()
if it somehow helps Projects
P.S. Google translator :D

You are a true patriot :salute:
Think of where we could be if people tithed their wages for kickstarters!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: J P Falcon on April 12, 2012, 04:37:28 pm
I just want to make one point regarding DRM which may or may not have been mentioned already. If a DRM scheme is to be used, I hope this information is clearly stated in the Kickstarter description. If it is an internet activated serial number license (such as OOTP), a non-internet serial number (such as Matrix uses), or Steam, this should be known to potential pledgers beforehand. Personally, I will pledge if it is an OOTP or Matrix scheme, but not if it is Steam or similiar installer design.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: fadingathedges on April 14, 2012, 01:05:53 am
Hallo!

I've been lurking since I heard about DoubleBear and what would become Dead State - maybe a year or so ago. I'm still really pumped for the game and decided to register and post. I would totally go in on a pre-order sized level via kickstarter.


-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

More than anything I think I'd like to see a design plan. "This is an outline of our target final game, these parts are largely done, these parts are in progress, these parts are up next." etc. I think this could be a good way to communicate what Dead State will be to people who haven't heard about it yet, and also lay out a skeleton for how you decide to keep everyone updated on your progress. It could be super rough to match up with however things work out for you: obviously a super detailed layout of every line of code you're going to write wouldn't work here.  :hahano:


-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

I'd love to play Dead State this year, but if it comes out in 2016, in 2016 I'm buying it. I know this is difficult request - and I'll chip in regardless - but a lot of people who give you money will want some sort of realistic expected timeframe for release. Maybe that's what this question is getting at? If so, my answer to "what sort of time frame would an average prospective kickstart contributor consider a reasonable wait for release to something they put money in on" - I would say less than 18 months.


-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

Pre-order credit is obvious, closed beta / alpha access are good. I'd recommend some sort of non-immersion breaking thank-you note, like a perk that kickstart contributors could choose to take at character creation (if there are such things in DS?). You could even have multiple of these at various levels. e.g. ~Kickstarter:+2 to mopeds; Loyal Supporter: +2 to people skills.


-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

There are two questions buried here:
1.) What is the most logical update process we could give you considering our time constraints?
2.) What update model would best serve DoubleBear's long term interests in Dead State's success?

1.) If you took one day a month and spent just part of it letting us know what's up, I'd be cool with that.
2.) A bi-weekly, weekly, or twice-weekly schedule which you set and then stick to like your life depends on it. More than anything your consistency on this is going to grab people, bring them into the fanbase, and make the most supporters through a project like kickstarter. Referring back to the "design skeleton" (design zombie?!) I mentioned above ~ I would tie these together. Every Monday, show us a new art asset (a zombie of the week would be cool) and write a paragraph or two talking about something that got coded, how it functions in the game - use it as an opportunity to paint a picture of a detail in Dead State.

My contribution level is limited by income/lack thereof, but my answers here reflect what I believe will lead to the most success for Dead State. Good luck!



edit~  That READ! poster in the library is pretty hilarious, you should sell / kickstart out some of those :P


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Continuity on April 15, 2012, 10:33:19 am
Something else to bear in mind: Kickstarter fatigue.

This kickstarter phenomenon has taken place over just a couple of months, and already half a dozen games have pulled relatively large amounts of funding. The thing is in many cases its the same people backing these games, I myself am backing 5 games right now.  There is only so many games that the core pool of backers can fund in such a short time-frame, having missed the initial rush you might be best off waiting for the whole thing to die down then going for it 6 months after that.  At any rate I know that I personally have reached a limit for now.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: cb.spike on April 15, 2012, 12:08:16 pm
I think there is still room for this kind of kickstarter. Game with some big name behind it and with promise of odlschool gameplay with clever twist. Those thing will ensure coverage from many sites. Also I don´t expect Dead State team will be asking for unreasonable sum of money like one milion of dollars muhahaha :smug: . Plus, they will have a lot of things to show. So I don´t see a problem here and I´m also ready to pledge.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: SnallTrippin on April 15, 2012, 01:22:31 pm
I would def. put cash down - this game has looked good for a long time...and with a couple posts on RockPaper, etc, etc you could probably bring in an ok chunk of cash.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Continuity on April 15, 2012, 01:55:55 pm
I would def. put cash down - this game has looked good for a long time...and with a couple posts on RockPaper, etc, etc you could probably bring in an ok chunk of cash.

I wouldn't count on that, the DFA project for example had only 0.76% of its backers as direct referrers from RPS.  And RPS's recent coverage of deadstate has been less than flattering, all but calling it vapour-ware.

Don't want to piss on the parade but a little realism wont hurt.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: J P Falcon on April 15, 2012, 08:20:35 pm
Well it is heartening to see an old school game like Shadowrun do extremely well on Kickstarter. And I want to point out that they make certain to mention that the game will be DRM free. A very important bit of information which allowed me to pledge without reservation.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Sabin Stargem on April 16, 2012, 03:18:28 am
Would it be possible to add a tier that pre-orders Dead State and to buy a copy of Age of Decadence at once?


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Goweigus on April 16, 2012, 06:43:40 pm
Would it be possible to add a tier that pre-orders Dead State and to buy a copy of Age of Decadence at once?

Could make for a good cross promotion to have a tier on each games kickstart page covering both games (especially if there is a chance they will release at the same time*)

*First there was The Orange Box, then there was the... ???????? Box


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: TailSwallower on April 18, 2012, 12:33:00 pm
Could make for a good cross promotion to have a tier on each games kickstart page covering both games (especially if there is a chance they will release at the same time*)

*First there was The Orange Box, then there was the... ???????? Box

Double Iron Bear Tower Box!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: speng31b on April 20, 2012, 11:37:02 am
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

Show off the core of what makes this game fun and unique. If this were a puzzle game or a platformer, you would show off the "gimmick." Since it's not, you need to succinctly demonstrate what makes this RPG better than or different from others. Is it the great writing? The interesting social dynamics? The combat? If you had to describe and justify Dead State's place within the RPG genre in one sentence, what would that sentence be? Which mechanic or pillar of design philosophy makes Dead State, Dead State? Put that answer into video form and you have your Kickstarter pitch. If the answer is too long or lacks focus, then you either need a better answer or a better mechanic ;)

Quote
-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

I would want to know that you have a roadmap to release with milestones plotted along the way. I am not you, and as a customer I do not need to know "this game is going to be released by X date." I DO need to know that you have some idea what a milestone is and how to meet it so that I'm not investing in vaporware.

Or better yet, demonstrate past milestones that you have planned and then either met or compensated for not meeting. This is the best of all worlds -- it shows that you not only know how to develop a game on time, but you've been actively working on doing so all along!

Quote
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

This is a tough one for me to answer, and it really depends on your own resource availability. Just don't promise anything that's going to kill you later down the line. Mentions in the credits would be great and fulfilling without providing any opportunity for a mass-dongle-shipping mail nightmare, or something.

Quote
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

If you are worried about the overhead of frequent updates, work to make the process seamless. Make your design log a public Google Doc so that people can really witness the process as the game evolves. Take your recovery time from when you're burned out on inputting balance numbers into excel or whatever and write a short blog on something cool you added or a problem you solved. If updates feel like a chore then they won't be fun to read or write, and they're a lose for everyone. Make them fun to write -- an expression of your own experiences or frustrations or victories during the development process. As customers this makes us feel included and trusted, which is a nice warm fuzzy thing.

The real crux of this is to worry less about big costly media updates. Most of us would rather read thoughtful, humanizing blog posts than gorge on concept art or in-game videos. If you're releasing for press then you need that juicy stuff, but if you just want to keep customers happy and confident, you don't.

Quote
We still want to bring you the zombie survival RPG experience we set out to do from day one, but in order to get it done in a reasonable time frame, it’s no longer going to be possible without a way to sustain full-time development – your feedback would help shape our plans quite a bit. Thanks for your continued support and interest - let’s see if we can make 2012 a great year for Dead State!

I've been "following but not participating" for awhile now, and I just wanted to take this opportunity to wish you the best of luck with this project. I know first-hand that indie development can be -- I feel compelled to thesaurus.com this, because no casual synonym for "stressful" does the concept justice. Despite all that, it's totally worth it. You have a great product and a lot of talent, and you should definitely go for it. Best of luck!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: speng31b on April 20, 2012, 11:46:56 am
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

Show off the core of what makes this game fun and unique. If this were a puzzle game or a platformer, you would show off the "gimmick." Since it's not, you need to succinctly demonstrate what makes this RPG better than or different from others. Is it the great writing? The interesting social dynamics? The combat? If you had to describe and justify Dead State's place within the RPG genre in one sentence, what would that sentence be? Which mechanic or pillar of design philosophy makes Dead State, Dead State? Put that answer into video form and you have your Kickstarter pitch. If the answer is too long or lacks focus, then you either need a better answer or a better mechanic ;)

Also, don't Dwarf Fortress yourself to death. As a customer, I want to know that you have a fun core of gameplay, not that you have ideas for 97,331 features which all interact. That's terrifying.

Quote
-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

I would want to know that you have a roadmap to release with milestones plotted along the way. I am not you, and as a customer I do not need to know "this game is going to be released by X date." I DO need to know that you have some idea what a milestone is and how to meet it so that I'm not investing in vaporware.

Or better yet, demonstrate past milestones that you have planned and then either met or compensated for not meeting. This is the best of all worlds -- it shows that you not only know how to develop a game on time, but you've been actively working on doing so all along!

Quote
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

This is a tough one for me to answer, and it really depends on your own resource availability. Just don't promise anything that's going to kill you later down the line. Mentions in the credits would be great and fulfilling without providing any opportunity for a mass-dongle-shipping mail nightmare, or something.

Quote
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

If you are worried about the overhead of frequent updates, work to make the process seamless. Make your design log a public Google Doc so that people can really witness the process as the game evolves. Take your recovery time from when you're burned out on inputting balance numbers into excel or whatever and write a short blog on something cool you added or a problem you solved. If updates feel like a chore then they won't be fun to read or write, and they're a lose for everyone. Make them fun to write -- an expression of your own experiences or frustrations or victories during the development process. As customers this makes us feel included and trusted, which is a nice warm fuzzy thing.

The real crux of this is to worry less about big costly media updates. Most of us would rather read thoughtful, humanizing blog posts than gorge on concept art or in-game videos. If you're releasing for press then you need that juicy stuff, but if you just want to keep customers happy and confident, you don't.

Quote
We still want to bring you the zombie survival RPG experience we set out to do from day one, but in order to get it done in a reasonable time frame, it’s no longer going to be possible without a way to sustain full-time development – your feedback would help shape our plans quite a bit. Thanks for your continued support and interest - let’s see if we can make 2012 a great year for Dead State!

I've been "following but not participating" for awhile now, and I just wanted to take this opportunity to wish you the best of luck with this project. I know first-hand that indie development can be -- I feel compelled to thesaurus.com this, because no casual synonym for "stressful" does the concept justice. Despite all that, it's totally worth it. You have a great product and a lot of talent, and you should definitely go for it. Best of luck!


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: wiande on May 02, 2012, 02:12:24 pm
Perfect time to launch, no big productions on their way, no big zomby game in kickstarter, new month just started,  the sooner the better guyzzz


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Ruinous on May 02, 2012, 07:06:17 pm
Xenonauts (true spirit of Xcom remake) is going to kickstarter very shortly with a public build that is quite playable, but at the end of the day the devs cannot let other projects put them off launching their own kickstarter. If the pitch is compelling, the pledges will come for sure. Doesn't hurt if people start spreading the word either.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: J P Falcon on May 02, 2012, 08:01:56 pm
Xenonauts (true spirit of Xcom remake) is going to kickstarter very shortly with a public build that is quite playable, but at the end of the day the devs cannot let other projects put them off launching their own kickstarter. If the pitch is compelling, the pledges will come for sure. Doesn't hurt if people start spreading the word either.

Damn! I preordered Xenonauts months ago and tried their beta builds...moving and setting up a new IP and email caused me to completely forget about the game....need to get reacquainted and see how those who preordered are affected by the KS program....too many games in the fire.....


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: CoarseDragon on June 11, 2012, 01:14:14 pm
Quote
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

I would like to see some weapon stats and charcter bios. Maybe a typical senerio.

Quote
-When would you want Dead State out by at the latest? (Keep in mind, no amount of money can make 10 people do the work of 25.)

Late spring / early summner 2013 would be fine with me.

Quote
-What kind of rewards would you like to see and for how much? (For example, higher level sponsorship might get your portrait done up as a zombie or non-ally NPC featured in the game.)

I'm already in so whatever you feel is right.

Quote
-How often would you want to see updates and what would you like us to showcase? (Again, keep in mind, doing updates takes time out of our schedule.)

Once a month or 4 to 6 weeks would be good.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Oscar on June 11, 2012, 01:24:27 pm
Quote
-We’re planning on showing off some of the gameplay we think represents the game. What would you like to see most to feel confident about contributing to the game? (Please don’t describe a fully complete game.)

I would like to see some weapon stats and charcter bios. Maybe a typical senerio.

There are lots of weapons updates:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2315.0.html (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2315.0.html)

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2026.0.html (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2026.0.html)

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2020.0.html (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2020.0.html)

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1977.0.html (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1977.0.html)

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1859.0.html (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1859.0.html)

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1818.0.html (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1818.0.html)

You can find of all the updates here:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2265.0.html (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2265.0.html)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: CoarseDragon on June 11, 2012, 08:27:27 pm
Thanks Oscar.


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: Killian Darkwater on June 12, 2012, 07:26:18 am
I would like to see some weapon stats and charcter bios. Maybe a typical senerio.

I don't know if this qualifies as a typical scenario, but it was a good update, and perhaps gives you an idea of the writing in the game

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2033.0.html (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2033.0.html)


Title: Re: 3/19 Monday Design Update - Kickstarting a Kickstarter Discussion
Post by: CoarseDragon on June 13, 2012, 01:29:40 pm
I would like to see some weapon stats and charcter bios. Maybe a typical senerio.

I don't know if this qualifies as a typical scenario, but it was a good update, and perhaps gives you an idea of the writing in the game

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2033.0.html (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2033.0.html)

Thanks for reminding me of that. Excellent prose! And one reason I pledged at Kickstarter.