Iron Tower Studio Forums

RPG => The Age of Decadence => Topic started by: Nick on December 24, 2007, 04:09:15 pm



Title: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Nick on December 24, 2007, 04:09:15 pm
Here is the video, guys. Enjoy, and let us know what you think.

(http://www.irontowerstudio.com/images/vid2thumb.jpg) (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/video/AoD_combat2.avi)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: puppyonastik on December 24, 2007, 04:19:53 pm
That was fucking fantastic guys! I loved the animations, they were very detailed and fluid! The music was great and fit the setting perfectly (I heard strong Greco-Roman influences). Flawless work! Best X-mas present ever :D

I loved the ending with the surprise, very unexpected!


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 24, 2007, 04:31:51 pm
Glad you liked it. The mechanics aren't perfect, but now they are much, much closer to what we want them to be. Nothing more tweaking won't fix. And just for the record, the "say hello to my little friend" thing at the end was a joke and is not in the game.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: puppyonastik on December 24, 2007, 05:22:31 pm
The mechanics aren't perfect, but now they are much, much closer to what we want them to be.

Still, it's all top notch. You have yourself a great team and it shows.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: John Yossarian on December 24, 2007, 05:28:50 pm
Awesome job! Loved the whirlwind animation, and I must have replayed the knockback one more than 10 times. Also, the interface looks great in action.
Small nitpick that I think has been raised before: The regular 'getting-hit' animation looks like a quick dodge to me. I'd give suggestions, but I find it hard to believe that whoever made all those other great ones can't come up with something that looks more "hurtful".
Second nitpick, sound effects.
Keep up the good work, and Merry Christmas.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Ander Vinz on December 24, 2007, 05:38:23 pm
Good work. So, when will I be able to play such a cool game?  ;)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 24, 2007, 05:42:07 pm
One day. Hopefully, sooner than you think.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: baby arm on December 24, 2007, 06:03:54 pm
Hmm, it must be Wednesday then.

Great to see the video, guys. Keep it up.
I'm glad to hear that the "say hello to my little friend" line isn't actually in the game.

Quote
The regular 'getting-hit' animation looks like a quick dodge to me. I'd give suggestions, but I find it hard to believe that whoever made all those other great ones can't come up with something that looks more "hurtful".
Agreed, especially when getting hit by that bigass axe.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Elwro on December 24, 2007, 06:46:56 pm
Fantastic, of course! I have no issues with the animations, you always have to suspend your disbelief regarding weapon/body collision in 3D games :-) The wide range of various available attacks is great!

2 things:
1. When you disarm the Centurion, his weapon disappears. What happens to it? Can you pick it up?
2. From the main part of the video one could get the impression that the viewing distance is fixed. You only change it when the main combat is finished. Wouldn't it be better if you changed it a bit in the beginning, just to show it's possible?

edit: removed a stupid question.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Tuomas on December 24, 2007, 06:56:29 pm
Looks great. Especially the free camera movement in the hall after the fight. Love the little details (statues, paintings etc.) and the lighting. The combat music track is good, the normal track is adequate.

The gladius and spear thrusts are well animated but I still got a problem with the short sword slash. It lacks power.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 24, 2007, 07:02:04 pm
Fantastic, of course! I have no issues with the animations, you always have to suspend your disbelief regarding weapon/body collission in 3D games :-) The wide range of various available attacks is great!
Thanks.

Quote
2 things:
1. When you disarm the Centurion, his weapon disappears. What happens to it? Can you pick it up?
It drops on the ground, but isn't shown. You don't pixel-hunt items; instead you click the eye button and get all available* items Realms of Arkania style. Simple and effective.

* your "available" radius is much smaller during combat.

Quote
2. From the main part of the video one could get the impression that the viewing distance is fixed. You only change it when the main combat is finished. Wouldn't it be better if you changed it a bit in the beginning, just to show it's possible?
Good point. We'll do that when we show a "life in a small town" video.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Nick on December 24, 2007, 07:10:22 pm
It drops on the ground, but isn't shown. You don't pixel-hunt items; instead you click the eye button and get all available* items Realms of Arkania style. Simple and effective.

Well, and we thought about marking the tile with l00t, too, since many people want it. We'll discuss it, and I will probably implement this thingy in closest future.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Elwro on December 24, 2007, 07:22:35 pm
Cool, thanks for the replies. If you stay with the eye option it'll be fine by me, but I bet "where are the items dropped in combat?" would be one of most frequently asked questions concerning the game. Otoh, maybe I'm too pessimistic about people reading manuals :-)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: somnium on December 24, 2007, 07:34:46 pm
Very nice. I thought the screenshots looked fantastic. But that was nothing compared to seeing it all in motion. It makes me feel rather amazed and frankly surprised.
In fact the graphics are so great that the inherent pessimist in me start to wonder if you are not spending too much development time on the graphics ;).


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Special_Can on December 24, 2007, 07:46:27 pm
 The download isn't working for me right now. It just might be too busy, I'll try again later and give my opinion then.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 24, 2007, 08:56:35 pm
We have 7 combat tracks and 11 non-combat ones. It's unlikely that one will like them all equally, since such things are highly subjective.

Edit: That was in response to Jedi's post, which he decided to delete for some reasons.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: The Pope on December 24, 2007, 08:58:15 pm
Looks very nice - the animations were very smooth.

However, I don't like the hammer. Please delay the game for another 6 months so you can get something that looks more like a weapon and less like an inflatable toy.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 24, 2007, 09:03:35 pm
What do you suggest?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: The Pope on December 24, 2007, 09:25:23 pm
Something like this:

(http://members.iinet.net.au/~theclearys/hammer.jpg)

The current one looks like it fell out of a DnD sourcebook, and doesn't really fit with the otherwise believable look of AoD.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 24, 2007, 09:44:23 pm
These hardly fit the period, good sir. Ancient hammers carried more weight. See Thor's hammer or the "Scottish" hammer (pic below)

(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/43998000/jpg/_43998316_hammer_ap416.jpg)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: The Pope on December 24, 2007, 10:35:39 pm
I posted it more as a reference for size, though you'd probably have trouble finding roman warhammers. They didn't really bother with them, as they were only needed to penetrate plate armor. As for the hammer in that picture, as far as I know they weren't used as weapons. Whats the point of throwing something like that when a sling or bow will kill an enemy just as dead much faster from much further away?

Sledgehammers are too slow and unwieldy to be functional weapons, and something much smaller would still be a one hit kill. The hammer in the video is several times the size of a sledgehammer.

Edit: If you want a big, heavy weapon which doesn't look like generic larp toy #973, how about a falx? That would fit with the roman style better.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on December 25, 2007, 12:21:50 am
Wow! Fucking awesome. Don't have a lot of time to post (Christmas Eve and all), but I just wanted to say this looked great. Congratulate your animator on a superb job, especially on that knockdown and the second death. Music was really good, and the environment looked outstanding.

One small thing: it's a little unwieldy that you have to select your attack type before seeing your chance to hit. I'm not totally sure what you would do to fix this, but it seems a little inferior to Fallout's popup with chance-to-hit's marked on body parts. I'm not saying that's what you should go for, but it's worth thinking a little bit about this, since the player is going to have to check chance to hit dozens or hundreds of times throughout the game.

Happy Holidays everyone!


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Mimir on December 25, 2007, 01:30:10 am
Awesome job. The combat looks like it is very fluid, but still very tactical. Most of the animations are superb, but I'll agree with John Yossarian about some of the getting-hit animations. Once I get used to it, it won't really be a problem since the actual dodge animations are very obvious, but there doesn't seem to be that much of an impact after getting hit. Other than that, the game looks incredible, and I can't wait to actually play it.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Kingston on December 25, 2007, 05:20:53 am
Good stuff. The animations look very professional, especially the spear-throw.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: CandyStick on December 25, 2007, 06:29:41 am
Here's my observations:

1.) Great job with the amont of tactical options. I am not a big fan of turn based combat in rpg's, I find it way too slow and subsequently tedious. But this video has just about convinced me that turn based comat in AOD exists because it has a tactical purpose and will not be tedious at all, I can't wait to play the game even more now.

2.) I noticed that you had to go in to inventory screen to change weapons. Why not have a primary and secondary weapon slots somewhere, which could be switched with press of a key. It would defenitly cut down on having to go in to inventory and drag thing over when it comes to two different weapons player might use frequently (bow and a shot sword for example).

3.) I am really amazed by the graphics. Especially after looking at that thread with the in game pics from when you guys first started. I think the quality of graphics right now goes a long way to make the game appear profesional. I know, a lot of people say "graphics don't matter", but they do, AOD could be on the a store shelf right now and I doubt anyone interested in it's gameplay features would ignore it after seeing it's screen shots. You really can't say that for any other Indy RPG's, because most of them look like they came from early 90's or worse. Great job guys.



Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: callehe on December 25, 2007, 07:21:15 am
The hit animations look like dodges and the dodges look like losing balance/limbo dancing. Other than that, very good animations and graphics. The knockdown recovery animation and head hit death animations were awesome.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: serch on December 25, 2007, 07:26:24 am
Sexy! Didn't PCs get an interrupt attack with the pilum when charged by a soldier wielding a gladius in the proof video, you know the one before this? Or did he lose it because low APs?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: arem on December 25, 2007, 07:46:31 am
Could you make the dodge animation a little faster? Compared to the others it seems too slow.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 25, 2007, 08:16:36 am
Wow! Fucking awesome. Don't have a lot of time to post (Christmas Eve and all), but I just wanted to say this looked great. Congratulate your animator on a superb job, especially on that knockdown and the second death. Music was really good, and the environment looked outstanding.
Thanks.

Quote
One small thing: it's a little unwieldy that you have to select your attack type before seeing your chance to hit.
Different attacks have different to hit modifiers. Fast attacks have a to hit bonus, power attacks are slower and thus easier to dodge, so they have a to hit penalty; aimed attacks have large to hit penalties, especially if you are aiming at heads; etc.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for great comments and support. Merry Christmas, guys.



Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: dduke on December 25, 2007, 08:25:54 am
Something like this:

[ihttp://members.iinet.net.au/~theclearys/hammer.jpg[/img]

The current one looks like it fell out of a DnD sourcebook, and doesn't really fit with the otherwise believable look of AoD.


This is a pickhammer, or not?
Anyway the implementation of one or another depends only on the game concept: following a realistic wave or a half fictional enviroment?
I think mount&blade has a good realistic feeling when it's weapons time.

But hey i like the big-sledgehammer that no one except the big muscled guy can wield while intimidating people, reminds me of the tribalman in Fallout 2 and the barbarian in Severance BoD.
So it's good to me.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Starwars on December 25, 2007, 08:41:13 am
A nice Christmas gift!

Like others have said, I really get the feeling that thought went into the turnbased combat. I can only hope that all options will feel useful, so it won't become a "select the optimal attack" fest for every battle. There seems to be large selection of weaponry, and it seems that variety will be needed in combat because of the disarming going on. This is really good I think, and again, I hope that all weapons will really feel useful.
The animations are mostly really good, and I loved the knockback effect. If you guys can get some decent sound effects on this eventually, then I think the combat will be quite visceral and have a real feeling of "danger". Fallout did an outstanding job in that area I think, the nasty sound effects there really add a punch to the "critical death animations".

Only thing I don't like much in this video is the battle music, but then again I really loved the battle music in the previous video so I guess it balances out, hehe.

Will there be more videos soon and if so, what will they showcase?

Hope you guys had a good Christmas.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 25, 2007, 09:26:06 am
Will there be more videos soon and if so, what will they showcase?
We have a "town life" video and a "quest walkthrough in screenshots" article planned. The article is for GameBanshee. 


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Helian on December 25, 2007, 11:52:37 am
Congratulations, at first I wanted to say "...exceeded my expectations once again", but then I realized that I'd come to expect just about anything from this amazing team...but enough of that useless flattery, here are some observations:
-As already pointed out, the animations for dodging and getting hit look somewhat weird, dependent on the angle, however. Other than that, they are gorgeous, and it's a minor concern anyway.
-I really like the bits from the non-combat music tracks, they are atmospheric and unobtrusive; I'd also suggest to keep the opening with the logo and the moody sound for all the videos to come, it lends a certain "effect of recognition" (I don't know a more appropriate expression for that in English, sorry).
-The combat system seems to work fluently without being overly simplicistic, which is pretty much the best thing that could happen.
That's it! Have a good time in your holidays!


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Gondolin on December 25, 2007, 02:29:21 pm
I've just seen the video and it looks awesome. Merry Christmas to everybody.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Spion on December 25, 2007, 05:54:03 pm
wow,i registered only to congratulate you guys,i loved the death animations,and the game is looking promising,and i am getting a feeling that the gameplay it will be deep,and also the dialog tree,with a lot of choices.cant wait for the game.my english it wont be too coherent but you ll get the idea:)Congrats again and keep the good work.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Dhruin on December 25, 2007, 05:58:29 pm
Some comments cross-posted from RPGWatch.  I really enjoyed it - it's looking fantastic.

-------------

Deeper comments, now that I've had the time. To be honest, these are nitpicks of relatively little consequence - I'd be pretty satisfied if it stayed as is. Still, in the interest of improvement...

- I'd appreciate a weapon quick-switch button to change between two weapon configurations. No big deal.

- The animation quality is quite good but I'd like more impact for hits. They seem to step back almost calmly, with little sign of impact or urgency. Perhaps some blood? Combat sounds would obviously help and may remove the need for animation changes but it's hard to tell without seeing (hearing) it.

- This is most obvious for the critical hit against the PC. The text says "massive damage to internal organs" but visually it looks like a scratch.

- The knockdown with the hammer seemed to have no gameplay impact - or did I miss it? No lost turn or reduced APs for being on the ground?

- The disarm needs some bling. Whether it's some small particle effect or an animation like throwing his arms up in surprise. Then enemy just looks static. Even floating text - *disarmed* that rises from the enemy.

- I see the authenticity of the hammer is being questioned - leave it as is. Whether it's exactly Roman or not I don't care but it's cool weapon choice - very slow but very damaging (I assume) and the knockdown is cool. Gameplay over realism minutae.

Love the whirlwind, too.

Again, these are nitpicks. I do think the attack impact needs some tweaking to keep up with the quality of everything else and I'd like to see the disarm improved.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Plalito on December 25, 2007, 06:30:44 pm
Excellent video!

Dodging, attack and death animations all look great. A few things that seem out of place would be the "being hit" animation and the being "disarmed" animation, or the lack there of. When being hit it looks like a half dodge, for example when the PC did the whirlwind attack it looked as if the two other npcs dodged the attack and I only noticed they were hit by reading the text box. When disarmed, there was no animation response and the npc just stands perfectly straight while disarmed. Would be interesting to have him grip his wrist or have his arm partially swing to the side implying that his weapon was knocked out of his hand, and afterwards still be in a battle pose with his hands in front of him as if he intends to dodge incoming attacks until he equips himself with another weapon. Keep in mind I only notice these because all other animations are excellent so the contrast is more obvious. Also this is just a personal suggestion but it would be nice to have a "being stabbed" death animation with swords, dagger, and maybe spears rather than having the knockdown animation. For example the last hit in the video was a sword attack yet it looked as if the npc was hit with a hammer. It might have looked better with him gripping his chest while looking down at his wound, stepping a few steps back, then collapsing forward. Maybe, maybe not.

Environment looks great.

Music is nice, but I'm curious if battle music seamlessly loops since the video is edited to end when the battle music ends. So I'm assuming there is a looped version of the combat track for in-game purposes?

Overall it was excellent, and I'm looking forward to those other videos too. Enjoy the holidays guys.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Euchrid on December 25, 2007, 08:56:14 pm
Great knockback and hit to head animations.
Interface looks really good, like the changed target cursor.
Environment looks great, could be because it's indoors, but looks much better than the previous video.

Noticed an error, a double and in one of the death descriptions (killed by whirlwind).

Overall, this would be great with no changes (other than the addition of sound effects), though, as others have said the hit and dodge animations could be improved (good enough as they are, especially with added sound effects, but weaker than the other animations).


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Yellow on December 26, 2007, 01:58:21 am
<3 the music,  combat reminds me of a mix between Fallout and Jagged Alliance, needs sound effects, <3 the special moves, coming along nicely


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on December 26, 2007, 05:46:55 am
Yeah, the "being hit" animation is the big fault there. Up until reading the last comments in here, I thought the whirlwind attack had only hit the little sucka that died...

The music is good for an indie game, nothing brilliant, but the melody is quite nic and stays in the hear after a while. That's the important thing. I always loved the soundtrack from sword of mana, and those were midi. It doesn't matter if AoD's soundtracks were made in CakeWalk or something, and if they're not live played by san fran symphonic orchestra. The tune? It's great. The AoD's tune. Great work.

I think there should be a floating text when someone is disarmed.

The knock away was awesome! :) Much better than Fallout's knock away.

:EDIT:
Small question: why do two text lines appear when we evade a hit and instantly counter-strike? Shouldn't there be only one line appearing in the text box?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 26, 2007, 08:35:17 am
Got two emails from publishers this morning. I guess they liked the video.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Frost on December 26, 2007, 08:56:00 am
Got two emails from publishers this morning. I guess they liked the video.
Don't sell yourself too cheap :D

BTW... Combat video is great... Keep up the good work


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Hümmelgümpf der Bruzzelzwerg on December 26, 2007, 09:54:21 am
Quote
Got two emails from publishers this morning.
Anything big?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Palmer Eldritch on December 26, 2007, 10:14:57 am
fantastic! while I agree that not every animation is perfect, I think they're good - and more importantly: there seems to be a fair amount of variations. Usually, you won't even see your character dodging in rpg's, just a text indicator, or something. Come to think of it, this surpasses most turn-based rpg's I've seen or played - although ToEE had some damn cool moves as well. As for the feeling of "impact"; I believe sound effects can improve that aspect. Great environment as well.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Priapist on December 26, 2007, 10:39:53 am
Quote
Good point. We'll do that when we show a "life in a small town" video.


Run away, turn away, run away, turn away, run away (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7-q1WRaKNg)...

There's your soundtrack right there.

Jokes aside, that's a very impressive little short. If I were to nitpick, I'd say the same sort of things that have been said - it would be nice to see more pronounced visual cues in terms of damage. Something as simple as spamming <x> blood particles multiplied by the damage taken would probably work.

The only glaring "must fix" that I could spot - having the "right-click to choose attack" menu only available from the weapon slot is a bit clumsy - I think you need to also make it available when you right click an enemy.

Aside from that, three thumbs up. My "iron tower" is giving you guys a standing ovation.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 26, 2007, 10:48:26 am
 lol


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: callehe on December 26, 2007, 10:55:23 am
Quote
The only glaring "must fix" that I could spot - having the "right-click to choose attack" menu only available from the weapon slot is a bit clumsy - I think you need to also make it available when you right click an enemy.

plus, the menus showing the number of APs for each attack (and in the case of rightclicking a specific enemy, the to hit percentage)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 26, 2007, 11:12:24 am
That's a great idea. Thanks, callehe.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: stargelman on December 26, 2007, 12:07:33 pm
Looks pretty sweet. One thing I wonder, in the list where you chose your attack type, will you add an indication how many AP each attack costs? It seems to me it would be a bit tedious to have to select each one just to see if you can even do them - or will the attacks you can't do in your current turn for lack of AP be grayed out?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 26, 2007, 12:18:19 pm
We're working on it - see the previous post.

Glad to see you here, stargelman.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: inso on December 26, 2007, 12:48:26 pm
Niiice. Really, god damn it, cool. I`ll return with some technicalities later - no time.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: callehe on December 26, 2007, 12:51:23 pm
That's a great idea. Thanks, callehe.

Always happy to contribute :)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Special_Can on December 26, 2007, 07:57:26 pm
 It really is amazing what you guys have done here. Tell your animator he has made some of the best animations I've ever seen in a turn based Crpg, and even crpg in general. Very entertaining, especially the guy getting hit in the face and him grabbing it. How many animations do you have in game?

 Any recommendations I made would just be nitpicking and just things that might make it a little easier to control. I will say that I like Callehe's suggestion, but I find the game wonderful as is(from what I can tell from the video). I'm so excited for this. I hope spring means first quarter. ;)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Yellow on December 26, 2007, 11:50:21 pm
Someone (not me) uploaded it to youtube. Here's the link: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gU8fbVxrof4 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=gU8fbVxrof4)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: jeansberg on December 27, 2007, 05:36:36 am
It was me. Hope it's okay.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: callehe on December 27, 2007, 07:09:03 am
Just noticed that initiate battle, end battle, wait/defend is the same button.

I don't think this is a very good idea, for instance, if you think that all enemies are dead and wish to end battle and click the end battle button, you may quickly find yourself killed since you wasted your turn waiting instead, and get surrounded. It would be better to separate the wait and end battle button so that if there are enemies around when you want to end battle it will tell you that you can't, and when you wait, you do so on your own risk.



Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on December 27, 2007, 07:30:07 am
Just noticed that initiate battle, end battle, wait/defend is the same button.
WTF?! Who said there's a "defend" function? It's just a start/end turn button AFAICS...

I don't think this is a very good idea
*trolls* *trolls* *trolls* *trolls* *trolls* *trolls* *trolls* *trolls*

It is, yes it is.

for instance, if you think that all enemies are dead and wish to end battle and click the end battle button, you may quickly find yourself killed since you wasted your turn waiting instead, and get surrounded. It would be better to separate the wait and end battle button so that if there are enemies around when you want to end battle it will tell you that you can't, and when you wait, you do so on your own risk.
Well, I suppose you've got a point... But I don't think it's much of an issue. If you let your guard down, it's your tactical decision. If you have two buttons, one for turn ending and other for combat ending, then the combat ending button will function as metagaming. Like in Morrowind where you try to sleep/wait to see if there are enemies nearby -_-

Don't handhold please.

:EDIT:
Now that I think of it, will there be anything like FOT's overwatch (or something) where you spend all your action points to have a turn INSIDE the enemies turn? I think it would be even better if you hadn't to spend your whole APs. It'd be nicer if it worked like a "save APs for later" function, where you'd get to spend them in an added turn... I find it pretty realistic and tactical.

Will AoD have this?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: callehe on December 27, 2007, 08:00:06 am
 ::)
my, my, who's the troll? I'm just giving suggestions, please don't be a dick about it.

Quote
WTF?! Who said there's a "defend" function?

um, no one...? so what are you riling about?

Quote
If you let your guard down, it's your tactical decision. If you have two buttons, one for turn ending and other for combat ending, then the combat ending button will function as metagaming

I'm talking about situations, where it's obvious for the PC to notice the enemies nearby, but not so obvious to the player himself, ie, enemies blended with neutral npc's, where there's a wall in front of the camera etc. In situations where there's hidden or purposefully hiding assassins, then of course, it should be possible for the player to end the battle, but then they weren't part of the battle anyway, so...

Quote
Now that I think of it, will there be anything like FOT's overwatch (or something) where you spend all your action points to have a turn INSIDE the enemies turn? I think it would be even better if you hadn't to spend your whole APs. It'd be nicer if it worked like a "save APs for later" function, where you'd get to spend them in an added turn... I find it pretty realistic and tactical.

I liked that function too. It makes it possible to ambush, gives meaning to concepts like covering fire, negates the jump out behind a wall and fire tactic, etc, all in all, makes TB much more realistic. Though I believe there are better implementations of the "overwatch" than in FOT, Silent storm for instance had a more flexible approach to interruptions.

Ideally, overwatch/interrupt, defend, stand/crouch/crawl stances, and combat stances would all be present in AoD, but that's too much to ask for this game. For the next game though it would be nice to have. The spear inA oD, does have some form of interrupt I believe.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: VonVentrue on December 27, 2007, 08:13:40 am
A wonderful Christmas gift it was, indeed. I was unable to post earlier, unfortunately (due to all the preparations).

I am truly amazed by how fluid the animations are, by how beautiful and moody the environment looks. And the music... truly marvelous. VD and the entire AoD team - Your passion is what guides You to achieve goals You desire. Please maintain Your enthusiasm, I can see that You are capable of doing great things.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Sleet on December 27, 2007, 10:48:13 am
Awesome video. Great work DEVs! Thanks for splendid Christmas present.

A minor item:
There is a typo in the text when the legionnaires each go down:
tries to say something but chokes on blood filling his throat and and collapses.

I really love the flavour text for the battles! The music is perfect in my opinion. I really am impressed by the decor and all the work that went into that as well. Thumbs up!

Question: the critical strike which cause massive damage to vital organs: does that affect your abilities? Harder to recover or heal up or..?

Lord Antidas is one bad dude. Nice shot.  :)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Sleet on December 27, 2007, 10:51:22 am
Got two emails from publishers this morning. I guess they liked the video.
Now that is a much deserved Christmas present to you and your team. For all the hard work/blood/sweat and time you have put in.
All the best, and hope it works out great for you!  :)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 27, 2007, 11:05:08 am
Thanks.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Priapist on December 27, 2007, 11:45:46 am
Quote
Lord Antidas is one bad dude. Nice shot.

But is he a bad enough dude to save the President's daughter?  :D


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Kingston on December 27, 2007, 04:39:30 pm
Well congrats VD. Any of them got any reasonable proposals?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 27, 2007, 04:45:55 pm
Some do. I'm still more interested in trying that digital distribution thingy than in signing up with a publisher. Still it might be a good option for Eastern Europe and all those places where 25 bucks is a lot of money.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Kingston on December 27, 2007, 04:50:58 pm
Heh, I wonder what Steam would charge? Not that you'd necessarily want to force your players to install that shit.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 27, 2007, 04:54:16 pm
Some developer told me, but I can't recall now. 40% I think.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Kingston on December 27, 2007, 05:04:32 pm
Well it would certainly be a good frontend to get customers. Plus the service seems pretty reliable. Then again 40% is 40% (although I don't know how much other publishers would want) and people don't see games with AoD's graphics above the 15dollar range.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Plalito on December 27, 2007, 05:24:28 pm
It's on gametrailers.com. Was just browsing and saw it on the first page. To bad the comments are somewhat negative, but that's to be expected by the [insert generic insult about mainstream gamers].

http://www.gametrailers.com/index.php (Scroll down while it's still on the front page.)

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/29233.html (Direct link to trailer.)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 27, 2007, 05:30:45 pm
Somewhat negative?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Plalito on December 27, 2007, 05:35:46 pm
Somewhat negative?
Are you commenting on the "somewhat" part or the "negative" part?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Kingston on December 27, 2007, 05:36:05 pm
"WTF???? "come closer.........Say hello to my little friend" !!!!! Man this game sucks ass! And whats with that backgroud music? why do people even care to make these games????"

Yea, why do you care to make these games, eh VD? Fuck you raaawr!

"3 minutes to kill 3 men !! i really hate turn based RPGs and this one is the worst !"

"PATHETIC...."

"This has to be one of the most unexciting game I've seen lately."

D:

I guess its more to do with the genre than the game itself.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Oscar on December 27, 2007, 05:52:21 pm
Quote
I guess its more to do with the genre than the game itself.

Yep, that´s how it sounds. But as Oscar Wilde said: “The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about.”


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Leonius on December 27, 2007, 06:15:20 pm
I'm looking forward to playing this one.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Dhruin on December 27, 2007, 07:04:29 pm
I don't think you could expect any different comments from GameTrailers.  By their nature, trailers expose the graphics and animation, usually with little real gameplay revelation.  It wouldn't occur to me to hang out there and comment, so I'm also guessing their audience is even more pumped by flashy stuff than the average 'net denizen.

While Steam would probably be a poor first-release choice, I'd definitely keep it in mind for down the track when you need exposure to a bigger, new audience.  40% might be well worth it for the size of their audience.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: udm on December 27, 2007, 07:14:56 pm
Hey, I signed up just to post after watching your video. Great job on the combat guys! Fallout 3 can just suck it :D

Can't wait for the full release!


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Clad on December 27, 2007, 11:03:00 pm
Now, that is how a combat engine should be. Really, there is nothing to say except that I fail to see anything to criticise there. And that is not something that happens often.

... I see one actually : I prefer 2D. But the technical aspects are the least of my concern when it comes to RPGs, and I can understand that it's way easier to make different animations in 3D where it would require a massive amount of drawing in 2D that a small indie company probably can't afford.

Now, if the rest of the game is as good as the combat system seem to be, you probably have there the best game in existence. And I'm serious, the best game I've ever played is Fallout, and AoD seems to have the potential to get even better. Or at least, as good.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: CandyStick on December 28, 2007, 04:09:40 am
It's on gametrailers.com. Was just browsing and saw it on the first page. To bad the comments are somewhat negative, but that's to be expected by the [insert generic insult about mainstream gamers].

[url]http://www.gametrailers.com/index.php[/url] (Scroll down while it's still on the front page.)

[url]http://www.gametrailers.com/player/29233.html[/url] (Direct link to trailer.)


..."finally a game that can smash final fantasy off the top spot"- voiceless
There is your box and website qoute right there. lol


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Tuomas on December 28, 2007, 06:04:57 am
I give this trailer 4/10
edit:
Quote from: Momse Posted 12-27-2007 6:07pm
Im confused...



Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Ivy Mike on December 28, 2007, 06:13:42 am
Looks good. I'm guessing we'll have it by next Thursday?

This might be too late to implement, but one thing I thought AoD could benefit from, that both ToEE and NWN did right, was the radial menu. Seeing as AoD has plenty of combat options a radial menu could give the player an easier overview of available choices. Not a big deal as it works fine the way it is.

I'd also like to second the request for an "overwatch" function or a DnD-esque "ready vs approach" that give the player a bonus to interrupt or similar (depending on how your combat system works, naturally).


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Atlas on December 28, 2007, 06:26:11 am
Blues News as well - http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=83750

Getting this kind of publicity can only be good.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on December 28, 2007, 07:02:28 am
::)
my, my, who's the troll? I'm just giving suggestions, please don't be a dick about it.
By *trolls* I meant *I* was trolling ;)

Sarcastically, of course.

um, no one...? so what are you riling about?
um, nothing...

I'm talking about situations, where it's obvious for the PC to notice the enemies nearby, but not so obvious to the player himself, ie, enemies blended with neutral npc's, where there's a wall in front of the camera etc. In situations where there's hidden or purposefully hiding assassins, then of course, it should be possible for the player to end the battle, but then they weren't part of the battle anyway, so...
I think you lost me... What? :neutral:

I liked that function too. It makes it possible to ambush, gives meaning to concepts like covering fire, negates the jump out behind a wall and fire tactic, etc, all in all, makes TB much more realistic. Though I believe there are better implementations of the "overwatch" than in FOT, Silent storm for instance had a more flexible approach to interruptions.
True.

Ideally, overwatch/interrupt, defend, stand/crouch/crawl stances, and combat stances would all be present in AoD, but that's too much to ask for this game. For the next game though it would be nice to have. The spear inA oD, does have some form of interrupt I believe.
And there's the counterstike. But I don't see how it works.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: callehe on December 28, 2007, 07:56:03 am
Quote
By *trolls* I meant *I* was trolling Wink

Sarcastically, of course.

oops, sorry, I have to tubgirl myself now as punishment for critical sarcasm detection failure.

Quote
I think you lost me... What?

I mean the perception of the PC and the player is different, so while the player thinks the battle is over it may be obvious to the PC it isn't. For instance the PC may stare right into an enemy's eyes, but the same guy may be hidden from the player's point of view by a wall. Am I coming through here? In this situation, it would be better to differentiate between if the player purposefullly wishes to wait or if he wishes to end battle. As the latter case just isn't realistic, from the PC's point of view.

In those cases where even the PC character should fail to detect nearby enemies, of course, end battle function should be enabled, in cases where there's hidden assassins etc.

hope that was clearer.

Sum it up: different buttons for end battle and wait. If there are PC detectable enemies nearby don't allow end combat, else allow end combat.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Oscar on December 28, 2007, 08:07:31 am
Blues News as well - [url]http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/board.pl?action=viewthread&threadid=83750[/url]


A new Age of Decadence movie shows off this upcoming Torque-engine turn-based strategy game (thanks Tacticular Cancer). The combat video can be found in the game's forums and there's also a streaming version on YouTube.

Oh! A strategy game! Just like Fallout!

http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=21990


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: puppyonastik on December 28, 2007, 12:51:08 pm
2008 looks like it'll be a great year for the strategy genre.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Mehler on December 28, 2007, 02:29:58 pm
I had my doubts, but after watching the video four times I'm ready to preorder! I can't believe that it's an indie game.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Sleet on December 28, 2007, 03:49:16 pm
Strategy game? You mean this is not a RTS game??

Oh.. In that case I won't be buying it.
 :hahano:


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Briosafreak on December 28, 2007, 04:28:57 pm
You are teh famous (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=815)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 28, 2007, 04:41:18 pm
So much love...


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: puppyonastik on December 28, 2007, 05:22:12 pm
The fact that those people can't come up with any constructive criticism other than how they would prefer vomiting a lung rather than playing AOD makes me worry about the gene pool.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 28, 2007, 05:26:30 pm
It also tells me that my game development career will be very short-lived.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Astargoth on December 28, 2007, 05:44:20 pm
The negativity is astounding. One would expect people to at least keep an open mind. Games by Nippon-Ichi on Ps2 and turn based games on GBA had a very positive reception. One would think that people who enjoyed them would be interested. If worse comes to worse we get at least one great game out of the deal (I realize Vince perception of this may differ). Still let's try to be positive.

Vince: While I realize that you = VP of marketing while me= random dude on the internetz, but maybe you should try relesing quest presentation video of some kind, and various solutions depending on character's skill. I remember Witcher devs selling C&C that way and it seemed to have worked for them. Also, while I may step a bit out of line here, I would suggest cutting your humor a bit. People here get "it" but on every site it seems to be perverted into some kind of massive misunderstanding.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: puppyonastik on December 28, 2007, 05:49:39 pm
If you continue being honest, fully support the product, continue being awesome to your fanbase, localize AOD to as many languages as possible, and make Mac and Linux ports of AOD, I think you'll have nothing to worry about. For having no marketing budget I personally think you've done an outstanding job, Vince.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 28, 2007, 05:59:10 pm
The negativity is astounding.
Surprisingly astounding. Ok, I realize that it's an indie game and that it's turn-based and that it doesn't look like Heavenly Sword, but it seems to me that the common perception is "unless it's Heavenly Sword, it's utter shit". I like that "Give me something that involves my skill!" line. It's an RPG. Duh!

Quote
Vince: While I realize that you = VP of marketing while me= random dude on the internetz...
I know about marketing games as much as you do. Maybe even less.

Quote
...but maybe you should try relesing quest presentation video of some kind, and various solutions depending on character's skill.
I don't think that could work well for a text-heavy game. Screenshots work better for this purpose, and we have such an article planned. As for the video, it had one single purpose - to show how combat works (instead of saying "trust me, it's awesome!")

Quote
Also, while I may step a bit out of line here, I would suggest cutting your humor a bit. People here get "it" but on every site it seems to be perverted into some kind of massive misunderstanding.
What humor? The "say hello..." line? It was an innocent joke, but it's clear to me now that internet is truly a serious business. :(


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Oscar on December 28, 2007, 06:01:26 pm
Quote
Wow, I will never play a game like that, ever. I loathe turn-based games, which is the main reason why I refuse to play any Final Fantasy game. It takes me straight out of the immersion of a game when everyone lines up and takes TURNS swiping at each other. Give me something that involves my skill. I absolutely hate it when my hit chance relies on some random dice roll. That is pure and total BS.

I’ll take Oblivion, with all its flaws, over anything turn based.

Priceless.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Clad on December 28, 2007, 06:14:48 pm
It also tells me that my game development career will be very short-lived.

Why do you focus on negative criticism where there is also a lot of positive reactions ?

Come on, those guys would have said the same about Fallout 10 years ago anyway, what do you care what people not liking RPGs (lol@"Give me something that involves my skill. I absolutely hate it when my hit chance relies on some random dice roll.") in the first place says ? They aren't your target market anyway.

Hey, Fallout killed not only black isle but also interplay, what do you expect ? RPGs are nearly a niche market those day.

And being part of that niche market, I can tell you this combat system is EXACTLY what I want ! No more, no less.

Plus, don't forget that lot of people took that combat system preview for a trailer. You have to admit that as a trailer it's not particularly brilliant, that's not the purpose of that video.



Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Special_Can on December 28, 2007, 06:26:18 pm
 I tried to change people's minds over at gametrailers but most had there minds made up before they even clicked on the link. If you don't like turn based games, why do you feel the need to say that like you are somehow superior for having that opinion? It's gross over their, I feel sticky.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Astargoth on December 28, 2007, 06:34:56 pm
As far as humor goes I remember one of your earlier articles when you joked that you have a revolutionary new timing system, and the general response in that site's forums was "Aha! He lies. It's turn-based!" That being said now that I think about it propably doesn't matter. People who react that way are unlikely to buy your game anyway.

About the graphics thing: What bugs me the most is that they aren't bad. They really aren't.  Not Crysis to be sure but I play games looking worse on pretty much regular basis. You guys did a really good job and it sucks that the reception is what it is.

To be honest I really belived AOD would be it. Not only a financial succes for you and your team, but also an influence on a broader market. (BTW http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=16591 an interesting article more or less in sync with my own opinion about the subject) Solid graphics, what is shaping up to be great gameplay, fun-sounding story. I mean why not. Spidersoft sells decently for an indie and AOD sounds alot better than anything Vogel ever made.

Still maybe I'm being too pesimistic. If even a few people get interested at Gametrailers and rockpapershotgun than it's a succes i guess.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: star on December 28, 2007, 08:17:37 pm
Uhm, why do you even give a shit about some random idiots opinions on a site not really known for it's intellectual and mature audience (gametrailers..). I even read some positive comments, so maybe you gained some more customers/interest. What more had you hoped for? There are just too many oblivionized xbox-kiddies out there.. you already know you can't target these. Just because they voice their dislike about lacking bloom/hdr/fast-realtime-action loudly and in harsh/stupid words you care about them suddenly? Fuck them and go on, i say.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Argence on December 28, 2007, 09:38:14 pm
I even read some positive comments, so maybe you gained some more customers/interest.
That's a lot of what I saw as well. You can't focus on the negative here. Everyone is a damned critic, especially on the internet where the combination of anonymity and an audience turns at least half of folks into trash-talking children despite their actual ages or meekness in real life. That there were plenty of folks whose comments were quite positive is a good sign. It's a simple fact that no product will attract 100% of any market or receive a flawless reception even where they try to buy it by awarding reviewers with escorts, hotel rooms, dinners, and gift baskets.

You knew from the beginning and stated that this would likely be a niche game. It's not intended for the short attention spanned, the uptight, or the stupid, which leaves a rather small audience left.

Quote
Just because they voice their dislike about lacking bloom/hdr/fast-realtime-action loudly and in harsh/stupid words you care about them suddenly? Fuck them and go on, i say.
I automatically ignored the "sux lolz, i felld alseep waching it, lolz" folks and the ones demanding pretty colors. There were however some comments in there which are valid and were echoed in here, primarily the lack of sound effects (which makes a HUGE difference, which is why Hollywood has a tendency to make the "thwack" of punches louder and meatier than would be realistic as it seems to multiply the perceived force in the hit) and the somewhat stiffness of the animations, particularly the damage animations, which are the most wooden. Exaggerating it is better than cutting it short, and in many cases is the bast way to go.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: star on December 28, 2007, 10:48:36 pm
There were however some comments in there which are valid and were echoed in here, primarily the lack of sound effects (which makes a HUGE difference, which is why Hollywood has a tendency to make the "thwack" of punches louder and meatier than would be realistic as it seems to multiply the perceived force in the hit) and the somewhat stiffness of the animations, particularly the damage animations, which are the most wooden.

Ok then, i didn't even bother to read so far. Well, i agree sound effects are a must and VD already said they will be added. As for the animations.. yea some of them are a bit off, while others are excellent. But what most people there don't realize is that this is an indie game (they propably don't even know what this term means) with under 1% the budget of Oblivion! ~10k vs X Million $. So we could have had about 200 AoD's instead of 1 shitty Elder Scrolls game.. When you have these numbers in mind the game definitely looks awesome, including the animations. It's all very relative..


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 28, 2007, 11:32:30 pm
"One can’t really deny that it does look odd if not humorous in it’s that’s it’s turn based and low quality. I’ve seen some great stuff out of indie developers, like SumoTori, which is the most awesome game for only 87 kbts, but this really looks boring. Toribash at leash looks good when you connect all the turns and it looks like a real fight sequence whereas this just looks silly. Taking turns fighting may be something “classic” and “niche” audience, but it’s “niche” for a reason, people are looking to new things, and while rolling dice worked for pen and paper, we don’t have to do that anymore and for most people, it’s just not all that fun. Real time is just more immersive for most that want to deal with something that feels more like a real world, not a jumble of numbers and calculations on screen, the illusion is maintained with it off screen, happening in real time while people move and fire freely aiming where they want, when they want, how they want."

lol


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Oscar on December 28, 2007, 11:35:46 pm
That´s it, this guy really showed me the true path. Vince, I quit. I´m going to apply to Bethesda right away.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 28, 2007, 11:52:03 pm
I thought that Chemix (the author of the quoted text above) sounded familiar. From Obsidian forums:

Chemix: "The more I read these thread the more I see mindless and idiotic posts piling up. RPGs are probaly the least intelligence required games, no need for decent aim, no need to know how to use ur weapon just let the comp do all that for you, whoever has the best weapons and stats wins. Don't bash the FPS genre just because ur no good at FPS games. It's rediculous to think that just because u don't like how something is played to say that it's a sucky overhyped game. It wasn't fun, in your opinion, in my opinion RPGs are only good for storylines, the rest is normal-crappy.

No offense is intended, I just don't like mindless FPS genre bashings."

Comedy Gold.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Priapist on December 29, 2007, 07:30:39 am
Quote
One can’t really deny that it does look odd if not humorous in it’s that’s it’s turn based and low quality. I’ve seen some great stuff out of indie developers, like SumoTori, which is the most awesome game for only 87 kbts, but this really looks boring.


First of all, let me urge everyone to take a look at Toribash (http://www.toribash.com/).

Secondly, I have to say that this fella is utterly lacking in perspective of any kind. You can't compare a cute (yet highly amusing) Stair Dismount-like diversion to even the most primitive of RPG. It's like saying "I can't believe Apollo 13 fucked up. I've seen some great bottle rocket launches."

Quote
Toribash at leash looks good when you connect all the turns and it looks like a real fight sequence whereas this just looks silly.


Seriously? Nothing about Toribash looks like a real fight sequence, and that's not the point. You've essentially got a simple rag doll that you can flex the muscles of, and the "gameplay" becomes the creation of perverse and bizarre animations, with a lot of trial and error to see what happens. Yes, it's awesome. It's great fun to tear off your own arm and throw it at your "opponent", stick it to his chest and then flex the elbow back and forth so it keeps smacking him in the head with the severed shoulder stump. And some of the possibilities are amazing.

But... there's a whole lot of "work" involved in creating that sort of elaborate sequence, and it can't really be considered as gameplay. It just isn't fun. But the end result is rewarding to a point, but really moreso in a social sense - "Hey guys, check out this fucked up replay I made!"


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Kingston on December 29, 2007, 08:08:13 am
Quote
Quote
Those of you judging the game on graphics, just know only four people work on this game. This games focus is not on graphics, and judging them based on how much money the company has spent(Ten Thousand), they're actually pretty good.

Still no excuse.

Makes me wonder what is an excuse.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Leonius on December 29, 2007, 10:31:23 am
It also tells me that my game development career will be very short-lived.
I would not say that it is short lived. Once you release the game and others have a go at it they may change there minds. This game is definitely not to everyones taste but there are fans of this type of game play which includes me.

Besides that, the ones complaining probably complain about everything that does not have a multi-million dollar budget.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 29, 2007, 10:36:11 am
Let's hope so.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 29, 2007, 10:48:26 am
Kieron Gillen: In passing, just bounced an e-mail with the Age of Decadance lead designer, and we’ll hopefully be running an interview in the New Year.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: star on December 29, 2007, 12:11:24 pm
who is Kieron Gillen?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Hümmelgümpf der Bruzzelzwerg on December 29, 2007, 12:12:04 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kieron_Gillen


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 29, 2007, 12:12:59 pm
A well-known journalist.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: star on December 29, 2007, 12:13:10 pm
oh wow.. he even has his own wiki entry.. must have missed something.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on December 29, 2007, 01:26:04 pm
Kieron Gillen: In passing, just bounced an e-mail with the Age of Decadance lead designer, and we’ll hopefully be running an interview in the New Year.

Hey, cool. Don't get discouraged by the dumbfucks -- it seems like the video is impressing the right people. Good luck with the interview.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Mr. H on December 29, 2007, 02:32:52 pm
As much as the Bioshock crowd wasn't impressed, looks like you also gained some interest:

"you can play as a con artist, loremaster, diplomat or some other character build that never uses weapons.”

Sold! Seriously,  my interest in this game was slightly below average before you said that. If this turns out to be true, it’s pretty much a must-buy for me."



Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: somnium on December 29, 2007, 02:42:53 pm
edit : bad reading :-[


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on December 29, 2007, 02:58:24 pm
I think part of the reason for all the criticism is that people are considering the video to be a trailer, which it is clearly not intended to be. For future videos, it would probably be good to have some text on the screen, maybe below the logo during the opening sequence, saying something like "Combat Video #2" or "Quest Demonstration #1" (we can hope, right?) to clear up any ambiguity. Also consider having text on the screen at the end with a link to this website and maybe even to the forum post discussing the video. Other people who don't visit these forums didn't have the benefit of seeing Vince's post that the ending is just a joke.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Briosafreak on December 29, 2007, 03:09:23 pm
Good advice from Cardtrick, I have nothing to add to that.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Special_Can on December 29, 2007, 03:38:13 pm
I think part of the reason for all the criticism is that people are considering the video to be a trailer, which it is clearly not intended to be. For future videos, it would probably be good to have some text on the screen, maybe below the logo during the opening sequence, saying something like "Combat Video #2" or "Quest Demonstration #1" (we can hope, right?) to clear up any ambiguity. Also consider having text on the screen at the end with a link to this website and maybe even to the forum post discussing the video. Other people who don't visit these forums didn't have the benefit of seeing Vince's post that the ending is just a joke.

 Nah, these people already have there minds made up. Once they see turn based combat, they scream "OLD SKOOL!!!!" and run away. Still, it probably wouldn't hurt.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: callehe on December 29, 2007, 07:33:24 pm
Hey Vince, if you don't manage to make at least a certain percentage of people hate AoD, then you have failed with your game; then it's bland and lacks character. Every great game has loyal followers and passionate haters. If people that hates Fallout dislikes AoD? Well, that's dandy well perfect as I seed it.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Claw on December 29, 2007, 08:08:23 pm
No need to add praise to the heap, so I'll jump straight to the complaints department.

First of all, there seems to be a small bug at 1:24, double combat message.

Personally, I find it a bit odd that the fast attack with the hammer is a swing at all. A quick push should be much faster. I also found it somewhat odd that the aimed attack looked so much like a power attack. Shouldn't an aimed attack also be a rather quick strike?
I also felt the knockback was unduly extreme for a fast attack.
It's also a pity the final combat video doesn't feature a spear interrupt.


It's a pity to read so many complaints about the graphics elsewhere. You've got nice models, detailed textures and some very good animations. The "Oh, my face!" death animation was cool and the knockback was very well done and very detailed. Some people really can't see past the lack of pixel shader effects.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 29, 2007, 08:34:51 pm
Personally, I find it a bit odd that the fast attack with the hammer is a swing at all. A quick push should be much faster.
We use the same animation for 2H swords, axes, and hammers. So, while a hammer push will work well, an axe push will look silly. We already have a truckload of animations, so doing unique animation per weapon model would be too much.

Quote
I also found it somewhat odd that the aimed attack looked so much like a power attack. Shouldn't an aimed attack also be a rather quick strike?
You aim. By definition it's not a quick attack.

Quote
I also felt the knockback was unduly extreme for a fast attack.
Knockdown is a hammers' trait. Every time a hammer is involved, there is a knockdown chance, regardless of the attack type.

Quote
It's also a pity the final combat video doesn't feature a spear interrupt.
Indeed. Too much to show, not enough time. Pity we couldn't show nets, or shield splitting, or pilums, or different bolt types, or...


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Clad on December 29, 2007, 08:42:07 pm
You know what I'd do if I were you ? I would make a game out of this video so that people can see for themselves about the different attack types.

What ? Already planned you say ?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 29, 2007, 09:06:27 pm
Hmm... It's so crazy it just might work...


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: puppyonastik on December 29, 2007, 10:27:03 pm
I agree, give it a try.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Oscar on December 29, 2007, 10:43:54 pm
Hey Vince, if you need help with this idea I can give you a hand.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Dhruin on December 30, 2007, 02:09:58 am
May I suggest that the next release have a slide or two with the website and maybe some blurb?   I think the video was designed primarily for the CRPG community but when the next one ends up on Gametrailers or John Walker at RPS decides to poke fun at it (or Blue's describes it as a "strategy" game), a couple of the more intelligent readers might look into it further if they have more information and context.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on December 30, 2007, 02:26:59 am
May I suggest that the next release have a slide or two with the website and maybe some blurb?   I think the video was designed primarily for the CRPG community but when the next one ends up on Gametrailers or John Walker at RPS decides to poke fun at it (or Blue's describes it as a "strategy" game), a couple of the more intelligent readers might look into it further if they have more information and context.

Seconded. That's what I meant when I posted

I think part of the reason for all the criticism is that people are considering the video to be a trailer, which it is clearly not intended to be. For future videos, it would probably be good to have some text on the screen, maybe below the logo during the opening sequence, saying something like "Combat Video #2" or "Quest Demonstration #1" (we can hope, right?) to clear up any ambiguity. Also consider having text on the screen at the end with a link to this website and maybe even to the forum post discussing the video. Other people who don't visit these forums didn't have the benefit of seeing Vince's post that the ending is just a joke.

but I didn't explain my reasoning as well as Dhruin. Also, the idea of including a short description/blurb is much better than my idea of including a link to the forum post. This would take control of your message and ensure that people get the right idea -- no more fighting through Ancient Rome, one gladiator at a time.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: roshan on December 30, 2007, 03:18:02 am
I think that for the next video, the menu with the speed slider should be shown, just to let the viewers know that its there. Maybe adjust it midway through combat to show its effect. A lot of people out there are not going to have access to the information that we as forummers do.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on December 30, 2007, 07:02:50 am
Some people really can't see past the lack of pixel shader effects.
QFT

Anyway "elsewhere" is where mainstream lies... Stupid kiddies complaining about turn based or graphics are not, AFAIK, the target market, so it doesn't really matter.

Anyway, almost at every "elsewhere" I've been, there's always someone saying "OMG! Some decent RPG to look forward to in the next year! And turn based!". Which is good.

Hmm... It's so crazy it just might work...
It's not crazy, it's a playable demo. See them all around.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Sleet on December 30, 2007, 11:54:32 am
A playable demo is exactly what is needed. It will show many of the mags and reviewers and people who can buy the game what the AoD really is about and not a strategy game or whatever else it is being called.
As to all the naysayers griping about the trailer, they are not interested in a RPG with text and turn-based combat. This is a niche game that is enticing to many players but not all. I would ignore the spam from that direction. Unless they happen to come up with some constructive input.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on December 30, 2007, 12:03:07 pm
Whooooosh! That kind of went over your heads, guys.

Unless I'm totally off-base, Clad was making a joke, suggesting that rather than just make a video, why not make an actual game. And hey, wouldn't Age of Decadence be a cool name for it? Maybe it could be an RPG? Vince played along, acting like this was a totally new idea. He obviously wasn't actually saying that the idea of a playable demo is crazy.

He has previously stated that a playable demo will be released simultaneously with the game itself.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Sleet on December 30, 2007, 12:32:21 pm
Ahh the joys of text-based communication. :neutral:
Perhaps an idea to release a little demo before the game to garner interest is what was meant.
If not that plane sailed right over my head at mach 3.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Hümmelgümpf der Bruzzelzwerg on December 30, 2007, 12:41:28 pm
Vince could also make some money to fund the AoD development by releasing Age of Decadence Tactics: Imperial Guards first.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Oscar on December 30, 2007, 12:45:26 pm
Well, it might be nice to have a "Tactics" franchise, that focuses in party-based combat, with different factions and branching storyline based on choices and consequences.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on December 30, 2007, 12:48:52 pm
Vince could also make some money to fund the AoD development by releasing Age of Decadence Tactics: Imperial Guards first.

 :P


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Priapist on December 30, 2007, 01:32:41 pm
Make sure you  kludge in some form of pseudo-turn based real-time mode so it can be played multiplayer.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on December 30, 2007, 01:37:41 pm
. . .

I get that that was a joke. I do. But I don't think I'm the only one who would actually like to take a squad of six guardsmen in multiplayer against a team of trained assassins. A multiplayer AoD tactics game could be seriously fun.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Mr. H on December 30, 2007, 02:14:50 pm
Quote
It's also a pity the final combat video doesn't feature a spear interrupt.
Indeed. Too much to show, not enough time. Pity we couldn't show nets, or shield splitting, or pilums, or different bolt types, or...


Alchemical fire walls would be sure to impress, assuming they're still in.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Claw on December 30, 2007, 09:02:39 pm
You aim. By definition it's not a quick attack.
My usual response would be "Don't be silly" but such a statement is more daft than silly.
An aimed attack as a whole isn't quick, but aiming comes before the execution, and to have any precision against a moving target, the actual strike has to be fast. Raising a hammer above your head to bring it down on your victim isn't really suitable for any kind of "aimed" attack.

Quote
Knockdown is a hammers' trait. Every time a hammer is involved, there is a knockdown chance, regardless of the attack type.
Yes, well. Maybe it should be a little more refined. Fast attacks do less damage, maybe they should have a weaker knockback effect as well. What if I don't want my enemies to fly several feet when I hit them?

Quote
Indeed. Too much to show, not enough time. Pity we couldn't show nets, or shield splitting, or pilums, or different bolt types, or...
I know what you mean, but the participants do in fact use spears, causing interrupts in the previous version. It's a pity it didn't happen in this one is all I was saying.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on December 30, 2007, 09:07:20 pm
It worked incorrectly in the first video. Interrupt keeps your enemies at a distance, it's not supposed to prevent them from attacking.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: TheLostOne on December 31, 2007, 11:31:47 am
I hope you add an unarmed "in combat" model.  If I'm disarmed, I'm sure as hell not going to stand there with my arms at my sides.  I saw it mentioned once in this thread, just want to make sure it wasn't buried.

As far as the joke about making a game from the video... Would it be difficult to make a short combat demo using the scenario from the video?  That could let people get a feel for the combat and acutally play around with different weapons and attacks.  Just that one encounter with static stats/skills and a variety of weapons in your inventory.  They should all be medium to low quality so we're not seeing end-game goodies in a 5 minute demo, maybe adjust character/guard stats to compensate.

Anyway, that's just a suggestion.  No idea if it's even feasible.  I only suggest it because it seems like it'd be easy to just let people download the encounter that you played through in the demo, but I could be underestimating the work involved in creating the files that would need to be downloaded.  Don't know anything about making games.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Priapist on December 31, 2007, 01:25:39 pm
Quote
As far as the joke about making a game from the video... Would it be difficult to make a short combat demo using the scenario from the video?  That could let people get a feel for the combat and acutally play around with different weapons and attacks.  Just that one encounter with static stats/skills and a variety of weapons in your inventory.  They should all be medium to low quality so we're not seeing end-game goodies in a 5 minute demo, maybe adjust character/guard stats to compensate.

Anyway, that's just a suggestion.  No idea if it's even feasible.  I only suggest it because it seems like it'd be easy to just let people download the encounter that you played through in the demo, but I could be underestimating the work involved in creating the files that would need to be downloaded.  Don't know anything about making games.

It's perfectly feasible, but it would really depend on how much time it would take the Iron Tower guys to cut down the game from it's current state of "wholeness", something they'll have to redo down the track anyway for the shareware demo. It would probably also get spread around as a"demo" of the game, much like how people seem to be considering the videos as "trailers". It would have value as a means of testing the game on a wide range of systems, but in theory that's already been done by other games using the same version of Torque.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Gilliatt on January 03, 2008, 05:02:00 pm
Sorry if I'm late, I could not download the video before yesterday. I am impressed by the huge difference between the first combat video and this one. The pace is much faster, the dodge animations are much better, etc.

Some people mentioned that the dodge animation and the animation when you are hit are somewhat similar and that it could be confusing. Personally, I think it was only confusing because it was the first time we saw them. I watched the video three times and once you get use to it, you cannot confuse one over the other; I did not have to look at the text box to see if it was a hit or a dodge, it is pretty obvious. When your character is hit the impact makes it move a little, while when he dodges he clearly avoids the weapon. I am not saying that it is impossible to improve it, but I don't really see any problem with it either.

I agree with the person who said an unarmed character should not have is arms standing at his sides. That is one thing I would change.

I think it could be funny if sometimes, when you dodge an enemy's attack, he hits his companion instead of you. Or maybe have a sentence where his companion says : "Careful, you almost hit me!"


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Special_Can on January 04, 2008, 03:26:11 am
 Here's a message I got at Gametrailers, it's a good laugh:
 
 
Quote from: Murphyferret
dude do actually belive that. its okay to say something suks. if it has 4 people working on it than it sucks. no matter how you put it the whole thing is a half ass attempt at something. if you liked that game play crysis and u will shit urself. goodbye. you suk.


 And here's my reply:

 Wow, I can't believe it. You are so right. If you can't be bothered to make millions, don't bother making a game. Assholes, how dare they make a game that goes against mainstream BS. Thanks for showing me the oh, shiny light. You seem like a smart guy, maybe I will check out this "Crysis". Sounds like a wonderful rpg...


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: zhirzzh on January 04, 2008, 05:12:38 am
I very much doubt his ability to recognize sarcasm. I predict that he will make fun of you for thinking Crysis is an RPG.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on January 04, 2008, 07:13:42 am
I very much doubt his ability to recognize sarcasm. I predict that he will make fun of you for thinking Crysis is an RPG.
I predict he is an asshole...

An that he's less that 16 years old.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: TheLostOne on January 04, 2008, 09:14:30 am
There really should be a separate internet for those under 18.

You'll still have idiots, but at least you know they're truly dumbfucks and not just so young that their synapses haven't grown close enough yet to rub two brain cells together.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: star on January 05, 2008, 02:24:19 am
yeah, i mean no one would discuss games (or anything else) with these guys in real life, but on the internet everyone gets to read their stupid opinions (and most people even take them seriously..). i demand that there shall be the authors picture next to every comment for a better understanding of who you're talking to. -.-


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Argence on January 05, 2008, 08:50:11 pm
i demand that there shall be the authors picture next to every comment for a better understanding of who you're talking to. -.-
Holy hell, no! The internet has enough photos. Everyone would just take pictures of their dicks to post next to them, or some pouty pic that's too dark and fuzzy, but shows how "deep" they are by their clearly tortured expressions.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Yellow on January 09, 2008, 01:45:05 pm
RELEASE THE DAMN GAME


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Diogo Ribeiro on January 19, 2008, 10:02:46 am
Ok, first post and all. Haven't had the time to read all of the thread - or the forums for that matter - so some of the points I'll make may have been covered already.

First of all, 'tis looking awesome :D Enjoyed the animations, they came off as very fluid and needing only a few touch ups here and there. One small niggle probably comes from how there seems to be some quirkiness and latency with animations. One example, for instance, is when the main character sometimes seems to dodge something before we can guess how the attack is made. I noticed this one at about 30 seconds of the movie - the spear-wielding thug pulls the weapon back for a thrust and the main char already begun dodging it. Following that, the main character is then hit he seems to do a small dodge forward and doesn't entirely convey the sense of being hit.

However, this small latency or quirkiness is likely of no concern in the grand scheme of things and besides, most others are very good. Speaking of which, any chance some of the combat animations can connect? I'm thinking of something like an enemy Legionaire actually blocking the hammer's blow, rather than just do a quick dodge and raise his shield when the attack is ending and the hammer is already movind away.

The Whirlwind animation is cool but felt a bit too fast. I think the weapon, being on the heavy side, should depict a slower, more brutal approach. Instead of hitting the Legionaire on the left and quickly swinging over the other two enemies, maybe it could hit the left Legionaire with a slower thud until it hits the ground (not unlike the life-snuffing Aimed attack later performed on the Legionaire to the right), and we could see the main char do some effort to lift it and then powerfully swing it over. Just a thought.

Is there any chance of coming up with hotkeys for weapon combos? I noticed the inventory is used often to exchange between weapons and while I have no problem with this, it wouldn't be a bad idea to allow this for situations where you want to ready weapons and/or shields quickly without having to access that menu. Of course, using the hotkey wouldn't remove any AP cost associated with switching between items.

I noticed the red shield had a "Use On" description. Is this standard for all items or is there a chance to use the shield as a weapon in combat, like a rush attack against enemies?

The environments look sweet by the way. Nice job on those :)

EDIT: any chance the combat grid can reflect the distance through heavier tints? All colors, no matter the distance, seem a bit phased out. Is it possible that the squares that are closer to the main char can be more visible? I'm thinking strong red for the centre, a mild green for the adjacent squares and a more transparent blue afterwards.



Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on January 19, 2008, 10:22:52 am
One small niggle probably comes from how there seems to be some quirkiness and latency with animations.
We'll take a look at it. Thanks.

Quote
Speaking of which, any chance some of the combat animations can connect? I'm thinking of something like an enemy Legionaire actually blocking the hammer's blow...
If attacks are blocked, you see a full blocking animation (I think you can see you in the beginning when you shoot one of the guards with a crossbow). If attacks are dodged, you see a sidestep.

Quote
Is there any chance of coming up with hotkeys for weapon combos?
Yes.

Quote
I noticed the red shield had a "Use On" description. Is this standard for all items or is there a chance to use the shield as a weapon in combat, like a rush attack against enemies?
We have a push attack planned (you can push and knock enemies down with your shield), but I'm not sure if it make into the game.

Quote
The environments look sweet by the way. Nice job on those :)
Thanks, Diogo. Glad to see you here.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Norgel on January 22, 2008, 01:26:58 pm
Hi folks!

First post for me too, so go easy with me.  ;) What I like is the handling of the combat options (i.e. attack styles, movement etc.). Animations are coming along. As was allready mentioned the swordthrust lacks power somehow, although I can't pinpoint exactly what is wrong.

Another thing that occured to me is that enemies don't seem to give up. Are you thinking about implementing this option, or are you more into the "bring 'em on and waste 'em" style of combat?

That's my 2 cents for today.

c.u. later

Norgel


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: caster on February 01, 2008, 07:19:28 am
OK i just saw it and apologies if this has been (probably has) cleared before. We will not be able to open inventory and switch weapons without any penalty like in the video, i hope?

Any chance of making spear combat slightly different?

Using both hands for thrusts and adding sweeping slashing atacks too?
How about using it for defense as well like someone would use a staff?

What about staffs? Are there any in the game and will they be finally usable as a staff is meant to be? Robin Hood or Robert Jordan style? Atack and defense, deadly in the hands of one who knows how to use both ends?

-edit-
Overall it looks really good. Enviroment seems very nice and believable and moves are also good though as some have already noticed that dodge move could be made somewhat better.
The one where our char seems like he takes a step aside and twists his shoulders.
You can make him do the same but bending slightly backwards and turning the shoulder away from the atacker. And he could have a dodge animation where he bends down slightly, tucking his head to shoulders, going into half crouch.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Banedon on February 03, 2008, 05:14:19 am
I still think it needs MORE GORE and MORE BLOOD  >:D, maybe an option to switch on extreme gore mode for those wanting to see attacks dealing UBAR damage and effects such as head exploding in a burst of gore and a headless body landing?  :hahano:

Swinging a maul the size of a melon at someone's head and having it deal 'critical' damage, while the victim slumps over like he was drunk seems anti-climactic


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 03, 2008, 06:39:31 am
OK i just saw it and apologies if this has been (probably has) cleared before. We will not be able to open inventory and switch weapons without any penalty like in the video, i hope?
The video shows you have a penalty. You require APs to open the inventory.

Overall it looks really good. Enviroment seems very nice and believable and moves are also good though as some have already noticed that dodge move could be made somewhat better.
The one where our char seems like he takes a step aside and twists his shoulders.
You can make him do the same but bending slightly backwards and turning the shoulder away from the atacker. And he could have a dodge animation where he bends down slightly, tucking his head to shoulders, going into half crouch.
Yeah, both hit and dodge animations could be worked on as has been said before. I take the opportunity to say it myself too :) Not a priority though...


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Oscar on February 03, 2008, 08:36:11 am
We'll surely add more blood effects. ;)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: caster on February 04, 2008, 06:28:40 am
@Morbus
I didnt notice that because i was watching it over stream in a small window, low res. Thnx for clearing that up.

I was wondering, in that video our character is surounded by three enemies... Shouldnt there be some kind of penalty for getting surounded? I mean other then the fact that three guys are hiting you at the same time...
`Cos tactically speaking its not good to let yourself get surounded.

Just a thought, maybe something can be done about that issue that would provide more tactical oportunities....


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 04, 2008, 07:02:57 am
I was wondering, in that video our character is surounded by three enemies... Shouldnt there be some kind of penalty for getting surounded? I mean other then the fact that three guys are hiting you at the same time...
`Cos tactically speaking its not good to let yourself get surounded.
Yeah, Silent Storm did that in an awesome manner, in the sense that you spend APs to turn around and to shoulder your weapon, and that you're more likely to get it if you aren't facing the opponent and stuff like that. I don't know about AoD, but maybe they should think about that a bit, I don't know, maybe implement that more-likely-to-get-hit thing... But being surrounded by three on melee combat is pretty much a very bad thing already...


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: caster on February 04, 2008, 11:43:54 am
Of course... but somehow its so obvious issue that i had to bring it up.
Now, if getting surrounded would be a bad thing in some interesting ways - like enemy getting an interupt chance if he is the one behind your back (while the other two are kicking you) or getting higher chance of scoring a crit and so on - then you should have some oportunity to lure them into some disadvantageous position too, to even things out. Or you could have a specific skill to deal with those situations, something like (but not really as) group style in the Witcher.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 04, 2008, 12:24:06 pm
Of course... but somehow its so obvious issue that i had to bring it up.
Now, if getting surrounded would be a bad thing in some interesting ways - like enemy getting an interupt chance if he is the one behind your back (while the other two are kicking you)
Those are called Attacks of Opportunity in D&D games. Fallout didn't have them and I don't know if AoD will...


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on February 06, 2008, 02:51:47 am
Considering the not uncommon response that the animations lacked impact - while this may be true, I think this has at least partly to do with the lack of sound effects. If you hear a nice fat "clang" for a parry, a "thuck" and "grunt" or a scream for a hit, and an empty "swooosh" for a miss, I bet it would seem much more dynamic already. Sound is a big psychological factor. So maybe before spending enormous time reanimating the combat, try what difference some sound makes - it might be enough to take the edge of this particular complaint.



Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on February 06, 2008, 10:00:38 am
Considering the not uncommon response that the animations lacked impact - while this may be true, I think this has at least partly to do with the lack of sound effects. If you hear a nice fat "clang" for a parry, a "thuck" and "grunt" or a scream for a hit, and an empty "swooosh" for a miss, I bet it would seem much more dynamic already. Sound is a big psychological factor. So maybe before spending enormous time reanimating the combat, try what difference some sound makes - it might be enough to take the edge of this particular complaint.

Yeah, I've been thinking the same thing. I've been playing Wizards and Warriors lately (a 3D first-person "blob party" dungeon crawler) and your melee attacks aren't animated at all. You just click the mouse on the enemy you want to attack, and there's a sound effect. Still, it feels fairly visceral, simply from the sounds -- a swoosh is a disappointing miss, a dull clink is a disappointing parry, a nice meaty thwack is an exciting hard hit. Sounds make a huge difference to perception of combat.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Imperial Dane on February 06, 2008, 02:51:20 pm
Well having seen the video it looked good.. but the animations seemed lifeless, it lacked a little punch or something akin to that, can't really put my finger on it.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: skyway on February 13, 2008, 05:32:33 am
ur TB is slow


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 13, 2008, 05:35:29 am
ur TB is slow
We went over this before: learn how to write!

Oh, wait, that's not the argument. Yeah: you're up against three guys and you only need to wait 12 seconds on average? That's not slow, that's pretty quick. Besides, there *is* a speed slider in the options menu...


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: skyway on February 13, 2008, 05:39:22 am
ur TB is slow
We went over this before: learn how to write!

Oh, wait, that's not the argument. Yeah: you're up against three guys and you only need to wait 12 seconds on average? That's not slow, that's pretty quick. Besides, there *is* a speed slider in the options menu...

that's good.
because after Arcanum's combat AoD's combat looks like it will take eternity. apparently because of horribly slow animations.
12 seconds on average is way too much btw. imagine the whole dungeon with lot of combat (and I'm sure there will be some) and now imagine how bored you will be in the middle of it.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: jeansberg on February 13, 2008, 06:42:55 am
This is not a "the whole dungeon with lot of combat" game.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: skyway on February 13, 2008, 08:02:54 am
This is not a "the whole dungeon with lot of combat" game.

don't exaggerate what I've said
anyway that was not the argument


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: star on February 13, 2008, 11:51:47 am
Where did he exaggerate? It was an exact quote.



And to make it more clear to you: There are no "Dungeons" in AoD, especially none with lots of combat. You should start by reading the FAQ if you want to know more about this game.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 13, 2008, 12:23:39 pm
ur TB is slow
Thank you for sharing your well thought through position with us and impressing everyone with your eloquence.

Quote
because after Arcanum's combat AoD's combat looks like it will take eternity.
Why are you using Arcanum combat to measure combat speed? I'm genuinely curious.

Quote
apparently because of horribly slow animations.
Are they horribly slow? Anybody else feels this way? We can speed up the default value.

Quote
12 seconds on average is way too much btw.
It's not a race game, is it?

Quote
... imagine the whole dungeon with lot of combat (and I'm sure there will be some) and now imagine how bored you will be in the middle of it.
Why would you be bored? I understand that watching TB combat videos isn't the most exciting thing, but there is a difference between watching a game and playing it.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 13, 2008, 12:37:46 pm
that's good.
because after Arcanum's combat AoD's combat looks like it will take eternity. apparently because of horribly slow animations.
Yeah, I guess. Arcanum FTB combat was like lightning fast :P It was boring as hell to, but that's because the combat system was altogether bad...

12 seconds on average is way too much btw. imagine the whole dungeon with lot of combat (and I'm sure there will be some) and now imagine how bored you will be in the middle of it.
Ah, but that's the beauty of it. There won't necessarily be lots of combat... I'm not expecting dungeon crawl, from what I know of AoD. So the biggest fights will be like what? Against 5 guys? Yeah, I'm ok with waiting that much... As long as the fights are balanced and thus fun...

This is not a "the whole dungeon with lot of combat" game.
QFT

Quote
apparently because of horribly slow animations.
Are they horribly slow? Anybody else feels this way? We can speed up the default value.
NOOOOO!!! Leave it at that. If people don't like it they'll change it. If people are too stupid to check the whole options screen before they do anything else then they shouldn't be playing a good game to begin with. Besides, isn't it to be expected a certain degree of realism in the default animations? So leave it at that, because it's realistic looking.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: caster on February 13, 2008, 01:35:56 pm
ur TB is slow
Thank you for sharing your well thought through position with us and impressing everyone with your eloquence..
He didnt have time to learn to write. Spent it all on shiny and action. Learning things is too slow.

Quote
apparently because of horribly slow animations.
Are they horribly slow? Anybody else feels this way? We can speed up the default value.[/quote]
I dont think they are slow. Especially not horribly slow.
Maybe you could add some standing still motion like TOEE had? Menacing ones preferably.


ur TB is slow
12 seconds on average is way too much btw. imagine the whole dungeon with lot of combat (and I'm sure there will be some) and now imagine how bored you will be in the middle of it.
[/quote]
Not if you have stuff to think about and consider before your next turn comes around. Which is the purpose of Tb combat.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Jaime Lannister on February 13, 2008, 01:46:56 pm
Considering the not uncommon response that the animations lacked impact - while this may be true, I think this has at least partly to do with the lack of sound effects. If you hear a nice fat "clang" for a parry, a "thuck" and "grunt" or a scream for a hit, and an empty "swooosh" for a miss, I bet it would seem much more dynamic already. Sound is a big psychological factor. So maybe before spending enormous time reanimating the combat, try what difference some sound makes - it might be enough to take the edge of this particular complaint.



Sound effects were easily the best part of Fallout's combat.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: zhirzzh on February 13, 2008, 03:54:46 pm
imagine the whole dungeon with lot of combat (and I'm sure there will be some)

According to Vince, only 2 of the games endings require you to have entered combat at any time during the game.

If you liked Arcanum's speed a lot better, mayhaps Vince should think about adding a "fast TB" option like Arcanum's where all movement animations but yours are skipped.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 13, 2008, 04:07:51 pm
If you liked Arcanum's speed a lot better, mayhaps Vince should think about adding a "fast TB" option like Arcanum's where all movement animations but yours are skipped.
Arcanum's FTB combat makes everyone teleport, even the PC.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: zhirzzh on February 13, 2008, 04:58:33 pm
Huh, must've forgotten. Still, if I were making fast TB I would still have the PC walk.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: skyway on February 16, 2008, 12:08:40 pm
ur TB is slow
Thank you for sharing your well thought through position with us and impressing everyone with your eloquence.

oh come on VD, you know well that I know how to write. but thanks for such compliment anyway.

Quote
Quote
because after Arcanum's combat AoD's combat looks like it will take eternity.
Why are you using Arcanum combat to measure combat speed? I'm genuinely curious.
I completed it recently, so this is some kind of aftereffect (as Morbus pointed out it was boring as hell though, but it was fast). To other people - I read the FAQ when it was made by JL so back-off ;) . as for my comment on "dungeons filled with combat" - this was an exaggeration on my part though. but argument was that combat looked too slow in that video. the reason why I used Arcanum as an example was because while Arcanum still has TB combat - it still looks dynamic and is quick, killing 3 people seemed like eternity on that video. I'm not against TB of course, but for just point-n-click sword attack it seemed too long.

Quote
Quote
12 seconds on average is way too much btw.
It's not a race game, is it?
it isn't a chess game either

Quote
Why would you be bored? I understand that watching TB combat videos isn't the most exciting thing, but there is a difference between watching a game and playing it.
yes I know, but when I watched this video I tried to imagine how it would be if it was me who played through that sequence. watched it two times btw to be sure. and only then decided that it's too slow for me. it's all IMO of course.

If you liked Arcanum's speed a lot better, mayhaps Vince should think about adding a "fast TB" option like Arcanum's where all movement animations but yours are skipped.
Arcanum's FTB combat makes everyone teleport, even the PC.

yes. but I'm not for the FTB option like in Arcanum. default TB in Arcanum was fast enough.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Dementia Praecox on February 17, 2008, 11:30:35 pm
Considering the not uncommon response that the animations lacked impact - while this may be true, I think this has at least partly to do with the lack of sound effects. If you hear a nice fat "clang" for a parry, a "thuck" and "grunt" or a scream for a hit, and an empty "swooosh" for a miss, I bet it would seem much more dynamic already. Sound is a big psychological factor. So maybe before spending enormous time reanimating the combat, try what difference some sound makes - it might be enough to take the edge of this particular complaint.


I think this is such an important point that I made a quick demonstration (http://rapidshare.com/files/92780466/AoD_sound-AoD-H.264_300Kbps.mov.html) of what difference sound effects can do. I'd say this is where the "animations lacks  opmh"-crowd needs to shut the hell up: turns out that AoD's animations packs more "omph" than Fallout. Although, to put the nitpick-hat on, after watching the video hundred and x times during editing I have to say there is a few places where there is a tad too much space between action and reaction. I'll point them out after I've gotten some sleep.

I've set the volume of the musical score rather low to emphasize the sfx. Sorry for the shitty quality of the video, I didn't have the time to wait for the high-quality compressor to finish. I can make a semi-lossless conversion later if asked. 


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on February 18, 2008, 12:18:53 am
Considering the not uncommon response that the animations lacked impact - while this may be true, I think this has at least partly to do with the lack of sound effects. If you hear a nice fat "clang" for a parry, a "thuck" and "grunt" or a scream for a hit, and an empty "swooosh" for a miss, I bet it would seem much more dynamic already. Sound is a big psychological factor. So maybe before spending enormous time reanimating the combat, try what difference some sound makes - it might be enough to take the edge of this particular complaint.


I think this is such an important point that I made a quick demonstration ([url]http://rapidshare.com/files/92780466/AoD_sound-AoD-H.264_300Kbps.mov.html[/url]) of what difference sound effects can do. I'd say this is where the "animations lacks  opmh"-crowd needs to shut the hell up: turns out that AoD's animations packs more "omph" than Fallout. Although, to put the nitpick-hat on, after watching the video hundred and x times during editing I have to say there is a few places where there is a tad too much space between action and reaction. I'll point them out after I've gotten some sleep.

I've set the volume of the musical score rather low to emphasize the sfx. Sorry for the shitty quality of the video, I didn't have the time to wait for the high-quality compressor to finish. I can make a semi-lossless conversion later if asked. 



Holy mother of God, man, what a fantastic idea -- and so well executed. That must have taken you forever . . . the sounds matched up so perfectly.

Vince, you've said before that sound will be the last thing you add, that you don't consider it a major feature, and that it is the least important remaining task. You were surprised by the reaction people had when they first learned you were originally not planning on sounds. I don't know if you're just not an auditory person, or if you simply hadn't realized how important sound can be, but I think this video is a telling demonstration of its power. Everything seems better about this video. The combat looks more fun, the graphics seem better, and the animations seem drastically changed. My impression of the animations is that they have been made far more visceral, far better timed, and sped up quite a lot -- even though none of those things are true. Sound makes a huge difference.

I hope you listen to this advice: do not release another video without sound effects. I can't emphasize enough how much better this version of the video is than the one that you guys originally released. Either change your proposed schedule to make sound effects your next priority, or hold off on any more videos until you can get around to adding sound. (Or even fake it if you don't mind the total lack of ethics involved . . . just add sound effects by hand like Dementia did for the time being.)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Tuomas on February 18, 2008, 03:21:29 am
Wow, I couldn't agree more with Ghan, Dementia and cardtrick. That video sure gives a whole new dimension to the fight. The animations don't lack punch, they just needed the sounds.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 18, 2008, 03:27:46 am
Incredible with sounds. But I think it's important to remember AoD can't have the same sounds as Fallout, and Fallout's sound engineering is very good... AoD needs a sound engineer that's able to create the same kind of quality sounds for the game to sound as good as it sounds in the video, because, damn! Does it sound good!


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Claw on February 18, 2008, 03:53:26 am
Quote
It's not a race game, is it?

it isn't a chess game either

Closer to chess than racing.


I think this is such an important point that I made a quick demonstration ([url]http://rapidshare.com/files/92780466/AoD_sound-AoD-H.264_300Kbps.mov.html[/url]) of what difference sound effects can do. I'd say this is where the "animations lacks  opmh"-crowd needs to shut the hell up: turns out that AoD's animations packs more "omph" than Fallout. Although, to put the nitpick-hat on, after watching the video hundred and x times during editing I have to say there is a few places where there is a tad too much space between action and reaction. I'll point them out after I've gotten some sleep.

I've set the volume of the musical score rather low to emphasize the sfx. Sorry for the shitty quality of the video, I didn't have the time to wait for the high-quality compressor to finish. I can make a semi-lossless conversion later if asked.

Wow, that's pretty awesome. It really does make a huge difference.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Dementia Praecox on February 18, 2008, 05:15:35 am
Quote from: cardtrick
Holy mother of God, man, what a fantastic idea -- and so well executed.


Thanks!
Quote
That must have taken you forever . . . the sounds matched up so perfectly.


Well, not really, I'm editing video for a living. I spent more time figuring out how to extract the sounds from the Fallout master.dat and getting them in to a sensible format. Redesigning the Iron Tower Studio-website on the other hand, would've taken me forever. :)


Incredible with sounds. But I think it's important to remember AoD can't have the same sounds as Fallout, and Fallout's sound engineering is very good...


Actually, Fallout's sound effects are pretty shitty. I've picked out the best for this video, and most of them isn't that good. Even the cheapest stock-sounds I use are of far better quality than Fallout's SFX. It's amazing really, what you can get away with when the viewer only hearing the sound once, accompanied with visual action.  At first I made a version where I used a lot of totally-not-combat sounds, like circus-Foley and animal sounds just to get this point across, but I decided that doing it properly would make more of an impact. I used Fallout's SFX for familiarity, and it's illustrative effect we've seen the results from before:

(http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/1843/111111sz0.jpg)

AoD needs a sound engineer that's able to create the same kind of quality sounds for the game to sound as good as it sounds in the video, because, damn! Does it sound good!

I'd say it'd be a lot more cost-effective just to buy some SFX-packages, or if you're cheap, crawl the web for royalty free SFX. There's so much out there that you'd have to be real unlucky to use something that's familiar to the players. Hell, you could take sounds from other games/sources and mash them together and change the pitch slightly. It's basically impossible to detect. Most "sound-engineers" do that in various degrees today, anyway.

Edit: Due to the lack of cursing I'm led to believe that no one have listened to the video with a headset yet. For the record, the last sound on PC death, is a remnant from the lulz-version. :)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 18, 2008, 05:25:35 am
Actually, Fallout's sound effects are pretty shitty. I've picked out the best for this video, and most of them isn't that good. Even the cheapest stock-sounds I use are of far better quality than Fallout's SFX.
Really? Well, I guess it's my inexperience talking there. I always though of Fallout's sounds as awesome and charming. But that doesn't mean they're not shitty. :P

I'd say it'd be a lot more cost-effective just to buy some SFX-packages, or if you're cheap, crawl the web for royalty free SFX. There's so much out there that you'd have to be real unlucky to use something that's familiar to the players. Hell, you could take sounds from other games/sources and mash them together and change the pitch slightly. It's basically impossible to detect. Most "sound-engineers" do that in various degrees today, anyway.
Yeah, I thought of that, but despite knowing there are like infinite SFX free packages out there, I was somehow afraid that picking one of those would lead to players hearing familiar sounds. I hate those. We hear them in movies, series, games, musics even, and they're all the same, specially doors opening, oh, I hate that one... But if it's easy to find SFXs that aren't used that often, well, then I guess it's much more cost effective.

One more thing, though. I noticed that there are a lot of contextual sounds in the movie, because it's movie editing, in the end, but is it possible to implement such a thing? A SFX for each animation? That would be awesome, because it turned out great in the movie. Except for the up/down swing of the axe, that sounded a bit off, and maybe when the guy is knocked off, it ain't a burst man! ;)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Dementia Praecox on February 18, 2008, 05:32:55 am
Except for the up/down swing of the axe, that sounded a bit off...

Funny you mention it, the up-swing of the axe (and the sledgehammer) are the only sounds I made from scratch. :(

Edit: Hm, the up/down swing seems to be a couple of frames off as well.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 18, 2008, 05:51:02 am
Funny you mention it, the up-swing of the axe (and the sledgehammer) are the only sounds I made from scratch. :(
Then it's not those I'm talking about. The one I'm referring to is the one from Fallout's kick.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Dementia Praecox on February 18, 2008, 06:01:15 am
Funny you mention it, the up-swing of the axe (and the sledgehammer) are the only sounds I made from scratch. :(

Then it's not those I'm talking about. The one I'm referring to is the one from Fallout's kick.

Aha, do you mean the impact-sound of the first axe hit? That and the last hits of the whirlwind attack is what I'm least satisfied with. The double hit in the whirlwind were a bit challenging as it all happens at such speed. Anyway, It's a quick fix, and I'll look into it if I'm going to upload the video in higher quality.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on February 18, 2008, 06:22:01 am
Great work, Dementia, this illustrates my point perfectly. I would add a few more "people" sounds (grunts and sighs, etc., e.g. for the sidestep) but the video already seems significantly more interesting to me with the sounds you have already added.
In addition to royalty free or freeware sounds it might also be worthwhile to check the various modding scenes. On the TES boards we had some people who were really good with sound (e.g. improving significantly on Bethesda's work, which was not bad in the sound department). Maybe one of those people could be persuaded to contribute the sounds that can not be covered with free material, for a reasonable price?
Maybe this version should be posted to RPS, just to see if the folks there that were neutral to negative also appreciate the difference?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Dementia Praecox on February 18, 2008, 06:52:00 am
Great work, Dementia, this illustrates my point perfectly. I would add a few more "people" sounds (grunts and sighs, etc., e.g. for the sidestep) but the video already seems significantly more interesting to me with the sounds you have already added.

Definitely, but the ones I found with vocal from Fallout were either death screams or really shitty. The groaning I use when the last mercenary gets up to his feet is from Sound Track Pro's library, as is all the walking sounds.

Maybe this version should be posted to RPS, just to see if the folks there that were neutral to negative also appreciate the difference?

Let me export it in higher quality first :D

And perhaps I should add a disclaimer stating it's fan-made, the sound is from Fallout and that it's added for illustrative purposes only?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 18, 2008, 08:28:52 am
I can't play it for some reasons, but looks like everyone loves it, so we'll definitely bump up the sounds priority.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Dementia Praecox on February 18, 2008, 08:36:20 am
I can't play it for some reasons, but looks like everyone loves it, so we'll definitely bump up the sounds priority.


VLC Player (http://www.videolan.org) and Quicktime Alternative (http://www.free-codecs.com/download/QuickTime_Alternative.htm) should play it just fine. Consider it revenge for the codec-hell I had to suffer through to get Final Cut to accept the original file. :)

I'll make sure to use some sort of mpeg encoding for the HQ-version.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 18, 2008, 08:41:41 am
Will try it, thanks.

Edit: Cool stuff, Dementia, and a great way to make a point.
:salute:


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: callehe on February 18, 2008, 02:12:22 pm
Great, great video, but the last sound is just too loud, tone it down a little bit.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on February 18, 2008, 03:26:18 pm
Great, great video, but the last sound is just too loud, tone it down a little bit.

Pretty sure the last sound is just a joke, much like the entire end of the video. Still, probably ought to be cut or toned down if this is going to get re-encoded and posted places.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Revenge1911 on February 18, 2008, 03:53:41 pm
Well heres my input on the video - and the game in general - the game is a great idea, perfect setting that it's in the falling of Rome. Anything is possible, where your not restricted by the historical accuracy of what happened during the "True Roman" times so your free to make a plot as you see fit. So, I guess I will shed some light on what I think about certain sections.

Setting  - As mentioned above the idea of being part of a falling empire is a great idea. A 'la' Fallout', but in the past and without glowing mutants  :hahano: . I am still curious however if there will be fantasy elements added to the game or if it will be "authentic" to the period. For example, will we be fighting just humans, or will griffon's and charging rhinos make an appearance? ::) (My personal preference would be just realistic, humans only, low magic world.) 

Game play -  From what I've seen in the videos the game play looks fantastic bringing back the true CRPG nature of what was once upon a time a great genre with many good unrealized games. I myself, am usually struck between real-time and turn based. But if done correctly I love turn based, for example - in Fallout (Did you notice that we're all using Fallout as a base for explaining things? lol) every shot or miss had a sound / reaction to it. Only thing I wish the game had would have been better animations. For example instead of a character standing there while getting shot at if another character missed, maybe they could have animated it where he quickly dove to the right, then crawled back to where he was during his turn in the missed shot would have made the game play more exciting visually.  So what I am trying to say is, if you have a turn-based system at least make the animations and sounds in par with the game play itself. It's not only appealing but it also makes those close calls worth watching and makes you want to beg for more.

Immersion/Choices - Ok, heres one that really gives the developers of any RPG a true standing. CHOICES, everyone loves them and it defines a players character - if we have enough choice in a game to do pretty much (Within limits) what we want as a player, in the world the game play would be much more exciting, don't like that peasant that is calling you names? Smash his face in, but pay the price by the guards. However doing bad shouldn't always have a bad outcome, so if we kill that annoying peasant we should be able to flee and maybe change our appearance so the guards don't know it was us. Thats the kind of choices I wish all RPGS had to where we can do what we want within the limits of the story.

So basically to sum it up - Good sound, animated moves, plot and nonlinear game play is to me, what makes a great CRPG, or RPG. It's great to have a main story, but the choice to go around it and put it off as long as you can is a great choice to have for those that love to experience every part of a CRPG, but it's still there for those that want to blow through the game as quickly as possible.



Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: John Yossarian on February 18, 2008, 04:47:49 pm
Great work Dementia! ( You're now off my hit list, which you got on for saying you were taking a certain trip a while back).
I agree with cardtrick about not releasing another video without sfx, but the next one was supposed to be a showcase of life in some town, so I don't know if the people who bitched about animations will be convinced. Maybe use an assassin (hello Let's Play thread), and show a little combat, using some of the weirder stuff like nets and acid. Or release two videos at the same time.
As for telling people about this video, I'd prefer if fans posted it in already existing threads, preferably in the ones where people complained, and gauge the reaction. It might be confusing for some people if you make a new thread, or tell an admin or editor about it privately, since it might be taken for an official video regardless of how many times you say it isn't. In any case, I'd wait for Dementia's Hi-Res version.

Again, good work.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 18, 2008, 05:23:50 pm
Setting  - As mentioned above the idea of being part of a falling empire is a great idea. A 'la' Fallout', but in the past and without glowing mutants  :hahano: . I am still curious however if there will be fantasy elements added to the game or if it will be "authentic" to the period. For example, will we be fighting just humans, or will griffon's and charging rhinos make an appearance? ::) (My personal preference would be just realistic, humans only, low magic world.) 
Age of Decadence is set in a FICTIONAL low-magic fantasy world. I'd like to know about the enemies too :P

Immersion/Choices - Ok, heres one that really gives the developers of any RPG a true standing. CHOICES, everyone loves them and it defines a players character - if we have enough choice in a game to do pretty much (Within limits) what we want as a player, in the world the game play would be much more exciting, don't like that peasant that is calling you names? Smash his face in, but pay the price by the guards. However doing bad shouldn't always have a bad outcome, so if we kill that annoying peasant we should be able to flee and maybe change our appearance so the guards don't know it was us. Thats the kind of choices I wish all RPGS had to where we can do what we want within the limits of the story.
Huh, that's kind of basic, you know? Those are trivial choices, nothing to talk about when you talk about choices and consequences... AoD is so much more then that, as was Fallout, Torment or Arcanum.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: John Yossarian on February 18, 2008, 05:30:35 pm
I think VD said there are like four non-human NPCs in the game total, and that you can talk to all of them (IRC, one of them was some kind of rock that install kills you).


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 19, 2008, 03:45:59 am
It is possible that he was referring to NPCs only as game dialog chars and not animals. Some people don't think of beasts and monsters as NPCs. I don't really know why.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: JuJu on February 19, 2008, 10:07:20 am
I'm too lazy to search for it, but Vince has said that all 'monsters' are humans, so no animals or mythical beasts.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 19, 2008, 10:46:32 am
I think VD said there are like four non-human NPCs in the game total, and that you can talk to all of them (IRC, one of them was some kind of rock that install kills you).
It was a "stone demon" (silicon-based creature). It doesn't "install kill" you, whatever that means.

Overall, we have 4 non-human characters in the game. We don't have rats, skeletons, ogres, dragons, and other traditional foes.

I don't want to spoil other non-human characters, so I'll repost what's been posted before:
...
There is a stone statue of a demon reading a book. The demon is carved with great precision, and his pose reflects deep thoughts and tranquility. As you approach, the statue closes the book in one fluid motion and looks at you with amusement:

"I do believe we have a visitor. Unfortunately, it appears that we are closed at the moment, and I've been instructed to dispose of all visitors. Therefore, we have a dilemma."

"Dispose?"

"Kill. Destroy. Murder. Do you have any preferences in the matter? If there is some sort of death you would enjoy more, feel free to share that with me. Being an expert in killing, I'm sure that I'm familiar with most methods and would be more than happy to accommodate your request."

"An expert in killing?"

"Not very bright, are you?" The guardian draws two blades out of nowhere with an alarming speed.

1. * trying hard to ignore the blades * You mentioned a dilemma...
2. * draw a weapon * For an expert in killing, you sure like to talk a lot.
3. * run
4. What are you?

If 2.
Very observant of you. Yes, a dilemma. You see, there is something you can do for me, and in return I'll let you go free. Even better, I'll allow you to explore this place and give you a great treasure that was given to me for safekeeping. How does that sound to you?

1. Sounds much better than choosing a way to die. So, what can I do for you?
2. [streetwise] That bit about the treasure was way overdone, don't you think?

If 2.
Hmm, not so stupid after all. Alright, here is a deal. Try to leave and I'll kill you, stay and argue with me and I'll kill you, do what I tell you and maybe you will live to see the daylight again. So, what's it going to be?
...

Also, this encounter didn't make it into the game, but it may entertain you:

You stand in front of a large sarcophagus. There are no decorations; every available surface is covered with symbols chiseled deep into the stone. Their placement is too chaotic to be a life story of the one locked inside. You feel a burning sensation when you move your hand closer to the symbols.

1. Open the sarcophagus.
2. Leave it alone.

Declaring a victory over common sense, you open the sarcophagus. There is an old and dusty skeleton inside. It doesn't appear that he took anything with him into the afterlife, except for five golden nails attaching him to the sarcophagus. Four nails secure the skeleton's arms and legs, the last one shines in the middle of the skull.

1. Take the nails - gold is gold.
2. Remove the nail from the skull.
3. Leave it alone.

If 1: You remove a nail from one of the arms. The dead fingers move. They move slowly at first and then start to weave some kind of pattern. Suddenly a lightning bolt strikes at the sarcophagus, narrowly missing you and wiping out a score of now glowing symbols.

1. Run. As fast as you can.
2. Cut the arm off.

If 1.
The sarcophagus has been obliterated. Cracked pieces of stone plates with burning marks lie everywhere. There are no signs of the former occupant.

If 2. You strike quickly, severing the arm at the elbow. The fingers move for a few more seconds, slow down, then finally freeze.

1. Remove the nail from the skull.
2. Leave it alone.

You remove the nail from the skull. Almost immediately fire lights up in the empty eye sockets, forming two balls of liquid fire. The jaws move soundlessly. The fire burns brighter for a second, and the jaws move again. This time the sound is clear and a rage filled "Son of a bitch!" scream echoes in the cavern.

Who are you?

WHAT?! *The skeleton seems to be insulted by the question* I'm Nazzer, the High Magus. I need a new body. Take me to the Council of Magi and you will get your weight in gold.
...


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Gareth on February 19, 2008, 02:34:11 pm
Can I request that there be no more spoilers like that one? Seems like a pretty significant point in the game. I know I read it, but I find it hard to stop myself once started.

And can I request that you change Nazzer (rhymes with Razzer) to Nazzar, Nezzar or Nazzeer? Original sounds a bit comical. The suggestions I made sound more like an eastern mage of some sort, at least to me. Could just be me being odd though.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on February 19, 2008, 02:37:32 pm
I agree with no more spoilers like that . . . but that particular one has already been posted at least twice before, so I didn't mind seeing it again. Anyway, it's a damn cool scene.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Revenge1911 on February 19, 2008, 02:51:54 pm
Okay, thanks for the answers Vince, and others - it helped clear up what the game will be like and it's got my vote! - I look forward to reading more about this game in the future, up until it's release.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: jeansberg on February 20, 2008, 12:18:19 am
Can I request that there be no more spoilers like that one? Seems like a pretty significant point in the game. I know I read it, but I find it hard to stop myself once started.

And can I request that you change Nazzer (rhymes with Razzer) to Nazzar, Nezzar or Nazzeer? Original sounds a bit comical. The suggestions I made sound more like an eastern mage of some sort, at least to me. Could just be me being odd though.
Not to mention Nazzer remindes me of Nasher from Neverwinter Nights. :)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 20, 2008, 09:24:36 am
Can I request that there be no more spoilers like that one? Seems like a pretty significant point in the game. I know I read it, but I find it hard to stop myself once started.

And can I request that you change Nazzer (rhymes with Razzer) to Nazzar, Nezzar or Nazzeer? Original sounds a bit comical. The suggestions I made sound more like an eastern mage of some sort, at least to me. Could just be me being odd though.
"Also, this encounter didn't make it into the game, but it may entertain you..."

We wanted to have a character who'd travel with you, provide some insight, patronize you, and change certain things. Even that "stone demon" encounter would be different if you have the magus' skull in your inventory. Anyway, the skull thing is too fantasy-ish and it's the biggest Morte rip-off one could imagine, so we killed it.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Gareth on February 20, 2008, 10:52:49 am
Ah, my bad, sorry I missed that part.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on February 20, 2008, 12:37:27 pm
Whoah . . . me too.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 20, 2008, 01:34:29 pm
Safyia's Kaji is quite nice too.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Oscar on February 20, 2008, 02:06:02 pm
Safyia's Kaji is quite nice too.

And maybe you wanted to post that in the MotB thread?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on February 20, 2008, 04:22:18 pm
Safyia's Kaji is quite nice too.

And maybe you wanted to post that in the MotB thread?
Huh, I was kind of replying to the Morte ripoff thing but whatever... It came a bit off the topic.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Oscar on February 20, 2008, 04:29:08 pm
Yeah, I couldn´t relate to it :P


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Dementia Praecox on February 21, 2008, 04:29:25 am
Fucking hell. I really really hate video compression. Sorry for the delay, but high compression/high quality-compressing takes bloody forever, and I've been having some issues with the codecs (no surprise there). I ended up with QuickTime again, due to this shitty mac not wanting to cooperate. Since I promised to export to a more accessible format this time, I uploaded it to youtube as well. YouTube raped it by recompressing off course, but it's still in better quality than my first upload. The lulz at the end is removed, and I added some sighs on the dodge-animation, an changed the impact-sound of the axe.

RapidShare:  http://rapidshare.com/files/93556736/AoDsound2.mov.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/93556736/AoDsound2.mov.html)
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiX-2CZkGE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiX-2CZkGE)


( You're now off my hit list, which you got on for saying you were taking a certain trip a while back). 
 

I have to admit that I spent quite some time wondering on what you were meaning with this, until I found this (http://rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=388715&highlight=cuba#388715) thread. :)
 
If it means anything, we tried to use as much regular pesos as possible, not only to save money, but to leave as little money as possible in the tourist-economy. I'm glad I made the trip before Fidel stepped down, though (not that there's going to be much change in the near future). It was a real thought provoking experience. Where are you from, if you don't mind me asking?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: MaximB on February 21, 2008, 06:29:22 am
Can I request that there be no more spoilers like that one? Seems like a pretty significant point in the game. I know I read it, but I find it hard to stop myself once started.

And can I request that you change Nazzer (rhymes with Razzer) to Nazzar, Nezzar or Nazzeer? Original sounds a bit comical. The suggestions I made sound more like an eastern mage of some sort, at least to me. Could just be me being odd though.
"Also, this encounter didn't make it into the game, but it may entertain you..."

We wanted to have a character who'd travel with you, provide some insight, patronize you, and change certain things. Even that "stone demon" encounter would be different if you have the magus' skull in your inventory. Anyway, the skull thing is too fantasy-ish and it's the biggest Morte rip-off one could imagine, so we killed it.


It's a shame, this character could be cool to have, even as a side off joke and not a companion.

Also in the Gargoyle encounter you mentioned, I think you got a little wrong in the dialog options.
You wrote :
""Not very bright, are you?" The guardian draws two blades out of nowhere with an alarming speed.

1. * trying hard to ignore the blades * You mentioned a dilemma...
2. * draw a weapon * For an expert in killing, you sure like to talk a lot.
3. * run
4. What are you?

If 2.
Very observant of you. Yes, a dilemma. You see, there is something you can do for me, and in return I'll let you go free. Even better, I'll allow you to explore this place and give you a great treasure that was given to me for safekeeping. How does that sound to you?"

I think this response is more appropriate if you have chosen the 1st dialog option "1. * trying hard to ignore the blades * You mentioned a dilemma..." as the monster is talking about the dilemma which only mentioned in the 1st response.

P.S
Will it be possible to make the turn based animation faster ?
(as it is boring to wait for 5 people to attack/move at that speed).
 


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on February 21, 2008, 02:47:27 pm
Fucking hell. I really really hate video compression. Sorry for the delay, but high compression/high quality-compressing takes bloody forever, and I've been having some issues with the codecs (no surprise there). I ended up with QuickTime again, due to this shitty mac not wanting to cooperate. Since I promised to export to a more accessible format this time, I uploaded it to youtube as well. YouTube raped it by recompressing off course, but it's still in better quality than my first upload. The lulz at the end is removed, and I added some sighs on the dodge-animation, an changed the impact-sound of the axe.

RapidShare:  [url]http://rapidshare.com/files/93556736/AoDsound2.mov.html[/url] ([url]http://rapidshare.com/files/93556736/AoDsound2.mov.html[/url])
YouTube: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiX-2CZkGE[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiX-2CZkGE[/url])



Excellent work, thie sighs add quite a bit. This might be something for a newspost?

Oh and a small thing I just noticed: in combat text window "blood filling his throat and and  collapses"


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Nick on February 21, 2008, 05:01:40 pm
P.S
Will it be possible to make the turn based animation faster ?
(as it is boring to wait for 5 people to attack/move at that speed).

We do have an animation speed slider in options.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on February 21, 2008, 08:25:48 pm
P.S
Will it be possible to make the turn based animation faster ?
(as it is boring to wait for 5 people to attack/move at that speed).

We do have an animation speed slider in options.

Which probably ought to be demonstrated in the next combat video. Also zooming/panning (I know there was some of that in this video, but not until the end, and not much zooming).


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: erbgor on February 22, 2008, 12:53:00 pm
P.S
Will it be possible to make the turn based animation faster ?
(as it is boring to wait for 5 people to attack/move at that speed).

We do have an animation speed slider in options.

Which probably ought to be demonstrated in the next combat video. Also zooming/panning (I know there was some of that in this video, but not until the end, and not much zooming).


Both very good suggestions. Show some of Oscars incredible work (floors) up close. Maybe the graffix whores will notice them then.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 24, 2008, 09:13:30 am
Here is something interesting. A guy named David read the RPS interview and decided that working in a sexy outfit like Iron Tower Studio is a great career choice, so he offered us his writing talents (for our next project, assuming that AoD will sell more than 2 copies I'm planning to buy myself to support the team). So, I asked him to describe an item (any item, any setting), a location, and to continue that "Morte" story that I posted in that thread:

Aharti Prayer Beads:

This string of 102 iron beads ensures that every disciple of Aharta performs the requisite number of Calm Spirit Mantras during their daily meditation rituals.  Thin steel thread is used to hold the weight of the beads, which you estimate to be a hefty 5 lbs.

Aharti scripture strictly prohibits the possession or use of any weapon.  However, modern Aharti scholarship contends that only an ignorant savage would mistake the sacred prayer beads for a weapon—even when the beads in question are wrapped tightly around the knuckles of a True Believer and swung at high velocity.

...

This is one of the cleanest bars you’ve encountered, though a quick glance at all the empty chairs explains why.  Most of them haven’t even been moved down from the tables in anticipation of customers.  A massive, leather-clad figure sits hunched up on a barstool that is comically small for his body.  He appears intent on single-handedly keeping the place in business.

...

[Gareth’s right that Nazzeer sounds better, so I’ll go with that.  Otherwise, delete “Son of a bitch!” and leave it as “a rage-filled scream” to avoid Morte-iness.  It’s rather silly that the whole complicated, ultra-powerful, magic-rune-coated, arch-mage-containing sarcophagus can’t hold up to the first jackass to walk by with a claw hammer, but I’ll let that slide and just continue from “Who are you?”]

Who are you?

WHAT?!  *The skeleton seems to be insulted by the question*  I am Nazzeer, the High Magus.  At least I was, and will be again as soon as I acquire a new body.”

A new body?

His flaming eyes flicker up and down.  “I suppose your’s would do, but I have noticed that most people are inexplicably sentimental about such things.  Of course, I would prefer a host more suitable for someone of my stature in any case.”

Why should I help you?

“Why does anyone do anything?  Power.  I offer a token of mine which would surpass your imagination.  If that is not enough, know that my escape is inevitable and my memory is long.”

1.  Big talk for a dead guy.  Why don’t I just finish you for good?
2.  Point taken, how can I help?

[from 1]  “I assure you, if my captors thought they could kill me, they would have already.”  He laughs.  “Do you believe you can do better?” 

3.  Watch me.  (smash the skeleton)
2.  Point taken, how can I help?

[from 3]  The old bones crumble easily into a fine powder.  You wait for some sort of response but the cavern remains silent.  [current end of event line.  Potential for later ramifications.]

[from 2]  “My soul has been bound to these nails.  It is... unpleasant, to say the least, but I should be able to channel my spirit through one to a new host if the fortunate recipient is caught on the border of life and death.  The stronger, the better.  Simply kill a worthy host with the nail and I will take care of the rest.”

[Player gets Golden Nail item—a very low damage melee weapon.  If a killing blow is struck with the Golden Nail, it will bind Nazzeer’s soul to the target and finish the quest.  Nazzeer’s responses vary by the level of the target.]

All targets:  As you plunge the nail into your victim’s skull, tendrils of energy crackle and you hear Nazzeer’s voice emanate from the rising corpse.

Low level target:  “What is this?  What have you done?  This frail body is no better than my tomb!  I should never have entrusted such a crucial matter to a filthy adventurer.”  He waves his hands and flickers slightly, then scuttles off disgusted.

Mid level target:  “Hmmmm, not what I would have chosen, but it will do.”  Nazzeer stretches his new muscles and waves his hands.  A [magic item] appears.  “Take that and begone.  I have much unfinished business to attend to.”  With another wave of his hands, Nazzeer vanishes.

High level target:  “Ah... far too long have I remained imprisoned and far too long has this pathetic world gone unpunished for the indignity.”  He begins an intricate series of hand gestures.  Unfortunately, you seem to have been included in “this pathetic world” and Nazzeer doesn’t seem inclined to correct this mistake.  [Hostile Nazzeer appears with summonlings.  He is quite nasty.]
Nazzeer death message:  Nazzeer lets out a scream, more out of surprise than anything else as his adoptive body slumps to the ground.  Next to the corpse is what used to be the nail Nazzeer was bound with, now melted by his energy into a perfect sphere.  It radiates a strong aura of magic. 

[Note: alternate methods of quest completion depend on game mechanics and I’d really need to know if, for instance, spiking oneself with the nail and making a heroic willpower check fits within the game’s context.  Likewise, more humorous endings would be possible if there are any critters in the game world—ideally of the fluffy variety.]

...

I also asked David what his strengths in the writing department are. His reply:

I really can’t tell you what my strengths in the writing department are, at least not without a lot of explanation.  The fact is, I don’t actually know what the “writing department” is, when it comes to computer games.  I certainly have a lot of opinions on what game writing should be, and I have certain strengths in other forms of writing but that isn’t quite the same thing even when you put the two together.

I think my biggest strengths as a computer game writer would overlap very heavily with game design.  I also think that if you want a good story in a game, it’s close to essential that these roles overlap heavily.  The thing is, since game design is something I’ve mostly done in theory as opposed to that pesky bastard of practice, it would be damn cocky of me to say I’d be great at design.  However, I think I’d be great at design.

Consider everything that follows to be in part a roundabout way of answering your question via examples, and in part, my general philosophy towards games, game design theory (applied and otherwise) and what I’d hope to do at Iron Tower. 

The majority of a game’s story doesn’t occour in writing, per se, particularly if the game is based in sci-fi or fantasy, where a comparable novel would be extremely heavy on setting.  Exceptions to this rule are typically games that play like movies or books with button-pressing.  PS:T is a rare example of how text-based story can be done right, but there, without the game mechanics being so heavily story-based as to make the game effectively a deconstruction of the genre, Torment would lose a lot of its appeal.  Even in the Fallouts, with their beautiful and hilarious dialog, I think that actioned trumped text.

Somewhere in a message board discussion of Fallout 3, the following gem came up.  “It isn’t Fallout unless you can kick a rat in the groin.”  I’m not sure if I ever kicked a rat in the groin while playing Fallout (in-game or otherwise), but he’s right.  Once you allow for certain actions in the basic game mechanics, whole new worlds of character development open up. 

Consider a conversational set-up where every NPC has some sort of friendliness/reputation/trust value towards the protagonist (like Arcanum, only not awful).  Now add a rogue ability, “Backstab” which deals damage to a non-hostile NPC based on their friendliness.  If they’re ready to name their first-born child after you, it’s gonna sting like a bitch when that knife goes in.  Here, Backstab really isn’t a combat ability—it’s a new dialogue option, or, for a dashingly handsome serial killer, a way of life.  It adds a reason for any “be nice” dialogue options past “feel like a good person” or “get a reward” if the player so chooses.  The player could easily have been nice to an NPC then attacked them without Backstab, but Backstab makes the two actions related, and that’s what separates a quality story and setting from a set of graphics and statistical arrays.  The game doesn’t care if a rat died by 10 damage from a kick to the groin or 10 damage from a 9mm.  The player does.

Most games have two stories and these stories rarely match, which is why they suck.  There’s the alleged story (you’re saving the world!) and the real story (you’re hitting the attack button a lot!).  If I were to write a computer game, I’d like the ability to control the setting in more ways than just descriptions and dialog trees.  The cliched country-boy-saves-the-world plot is really based in unimaginative game design as opposed to unimaginative writing.  If the game designers want a straight-forward progression in monster difficulty from absurdly wimpy to planet-devouring, there simply isn’t much a writer can do.  It’d be like writing dialog for a movie where every scene has already been shot.  Consider the difference between that and a potential “written” game design. 

You start off in a city—not a town where everyone knows your name and wants you to bring them a watering can for their home-grown tomatoes, but a big fucking city where the only reason someone would care about you is if you’re in their way. (That's beautiful. Pure poetry. - Vince)  There’s a weapons store nearby and you check it out.  You have a bit of money but everything’s out of your price range.  Not just “save all your pennies in a jar” out of your price range, but “sell all your extended family into slavery” out of your price range.  You check your inventory and see that you’re carrying a Dagger of Suckiness and three overcooked rats.  Head much deeper into the city and you get mugged, with an outcome that by now should be predictable.  So you reload and head out of the city and do adventurey stuff there until you are burly, clever, or intimidating enough to get past the muggers.

There’s no guarantee that the player will actually go through that exact sequence of events, of course, but put enough stuff like that around and they’ll bump into some of it.  Complete control is given to the player even though the main points are all but inevitable.  However, there is absolutely no in-game text needed past item names and maybe a few lines of dialog so that all the cityfolk can tell you to fuck off.  Is that what a writer might do?  That scene does things I’d normally associate with writing.  It establishes that you’re a tiny part of a vast world in which stuff happens without revolving around you.  It establishes that, at least for the moment, you’re just trying to make your way in this world.  The story advances.  The player/reader gets something to look forward to with a glimpse of the fancy shit they’ll be able to play with later. 

Writing that scene with text is certainly easy—I just did it, obviously.  But it’s an inferior way to tell the story.  “Show, don’t tell” is a total cliche, but a surprisingly good one.  Going way back to the question of my strengths: I think about these things.  A lot.  I believe this is both unusual and important.  Also, I don’t think there’s a chance in hell of getting you to believe this now, but I can also be pretty good at brevity.
...

So, what do you guys think?





Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Gareth on February 24, 2008, 09:42:24 am
Hmmm, on careful consideration...

Quote
Gareth’s right

I'd say he's a keeper.

Heh, he sounds good to me. I'd give him a chance to write me a mini-module using the game creation tools. I'm not sure about the "not much text" thing, I like text and I think he will discover some things are about 10 000 times more time consuming to convey via game art instead of text, but I'd give him a chance to try out his ideas. Trying new things to see what works is what progress is all about. And if he decides to go with more text then it looks like he has some skill with it.


Also, he said Gareth is Right. Did I mention that? The sign of a true scholar and gentleman. ;)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Tuomas on February 24, 2008, 10:41:43 am
I like him a lot.

"Most games have two stories and these stories rarely match, which is why they suck.  There’s the alleged story (you’re saving the world!) and the real story (you’re hitting the attack button a lot!).  If I were to write a computer game, I’d like the ability to control the setting in more ways than just descriptions and dialog trees."

Good man.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: MaximB on February 24, 2008, 11:16:55 am
I would love to have him in the development team !


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on February 24, 2008, 11:45:49 am
I would love to have him in the development team !

Is it fair to put the guy in front of a search comittee consisting of the entire Internet?  :)  Anyway, the writing and quest ideas seem solid. I am less sure about the explanations and the examples in the letter they seem very general, and the show don't tell philosophy is neither very original nor is the example particularly exciting or original. Still I agree that it IS good if someone thinks about these things.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 24, 2008, 12:00:21 pm
Is it fair to put the guy in front of a search comittee consisting of the entire Internet?
Being a gentleman, I asked him first:

- Do you mind if I post your submission on the intarnets so that every 12 year old can tear your work apart and give you valuable pointers?
- Are you crazy? Of course not!
- To late. YOU ARE A DEAD MAN NOW! A DEAD MAN!
- BRING IT ON BITCH!

Quote
I am less sure about the explanations and the examples in the letter they seem very general, and the show don't tell philosophy is neither very original nor is the example particularly exciting or original. Still I agree that it IS good if someone thinks about these things.
Well, let's hope that David will join our fine forums and discuss his philosophies with us.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Brother None on February 24, 2008, 12:54:37 pm
So, what do you guys think?

About what?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 24, 2008, 02:03:21 pm
Life.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Brother None on February 24, 2008, 02:51:57 pm
42.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 24, 2008, 03:08:21 pm
You don't say.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Claw on February 24, 2008, 04:20:02 pm
I like pretty much everything David wrote.

Very good item and location description. I particularly like the idea of the item, not just the description.
The story part has some odd elements, like Nazzeer's soul being bound to the nails - as opposed to by the nails - but I like the options you get and how the story plays out.
I also like his views on game design. The notion of having two stories in every game reminds me of the Portal post-mortem, actually. He readily admits his views may not be very original, but maintains they are relevant, and he's right. After all, one major complaint about Oblivion we raised at the Codex was how the gameplay ignored the supposed invasion. Clearly, the gameplay-story isn't aligned with the story-story.

PS: Vince, I tried searching for your posting of the "Morte" story, and strangely couldn't find it (a search for "nail" or "nails" returned only your post on page 15 and unrelated posts), until I searched for "Nazzeer" which Gareth used in his reply. However, Gareth's post only comes up if I also specify his user name. It appears that the search function is kinda messed up.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Saint Genesius on February 24, 2008, 05:00:49 pm
Hmmm, on careful consideration...

Quote
Gareth’s right

I'd say he's a keeper.

Heh, he sounds good to me. I'd give him a chance to write me a mini-module using the game creation tools. I'm not sure about the "not much text" thing, I like text and I think he will discover some things are about 10 000 times more time consuming to convey via game art instead of text, but I'd give him a chance to try out his ideas. Trying new things to see what works is what progress is all about. And if he decides to go with more text then it looks like he has some skill with it.


Also, he said Gareth is Right. Did I mention that? The sign of a true scholar and gentleman. ;)

David here.

I like text too.  Big fan.  Love the stuff.  However, if it were just about the text, there are far better mediums than games.  What I'm after is a set-up where the experience isn't some bizzaro-world biathlon where you read for 10 minutes, play a game for 10 minutes, and repeat.  I don't think anything I wrote in there requires extra game art, just different uses of it. Anything in there that I thought would require something extra gets a description.  I didn't say [insert tendrils of energy animation here], I wrote it out.  My ideal isn't a CGI sequence every time I want a coffee break.

Incidentally, you're right about "Nazzeer" having a Middle Eastern vibe to it too.  It's very close to "vizier," for instance, and emphasizes the long "e" sound, which Arabic does by having separate letters for extra-long vowel sounds.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Saint Genesius on February 24, 2008, 05:31:59 pm
I would love to have him in the development team !

Is it fair to put the guy in front of a search comittee consisting of the entire Internet?  :)  Anyway, the writing and quest ideas seem solid. I am less sure about the explanations and the examples in the letter they seem very general, and the show don't tell philosophy is neither very original nor is the example particularly exciting or original. Still I agree that it IS good if someone thinks about these things.

The entire Internet!  Holy shit!  I had no idea the Iron Tower Studio forum had that sort of readership.  Sure is a good thing I got my foot in the door then.

You are absolutely correct that the "show don't tell philosophy" is not original.  You might even call it a cliche.  In fact, if you really wanted to drive the point home, you might call it a "total cliche."  However, most of the times it gets applied in games seem to be by accident.  Compare the brilliant opening sequence in Final Fantasy 6 to, say, absolutely any scene from Final Fantasy 8.  As far as originality in my example goes (I assume you mean the city example), I can't remember ever seeing this set-up to start a game.  I assumed that it's been used somewhere out there.  And yes, of course I tried to keep things general.  That was kinda the whole entire point of that section, in that most of what I'd been asked for were specific descriptions and I wanted to make sure that I'd have a chance to play around with overall structure too.  To reference specific scenes in specific games, I'd have to either A: assume that Vince has not only played the game, but remembers the scene and experienced it in the same way and under the same conditions as I did, or B: give a general description of how it's set up, in which case I'm back to working with generalities.  On top of that, consider that basically all the content in the section in question was unsolicited and that the whole submission worked out to about 8 pages when it could've easily been 1-1.5.  You want I should add more detail?  This isn't a comprehensive game design manual we're talking about.  It's an application sent to someone who didn't have any job openings posted.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Saint Genesius on February 24, 2008, 05:42:23 pm
I like pretty much everything David wrote.

Very good item and location description. I particularly like the idea of the item, not just the description.
The story part has some odd elements, like Nazzeer's soul being bound to the nails - as opposed to by the nails - but I like the options you get and how the story plays out.
I also like his views on game design. The notion of having two stories in every game reminds me of the Portal post-mortem, actually. He readily admits his views may not be very original, but maintains they are relevant, and he's right. After all, one major complaint about Oblivion we raised at the Codex was how the gameplay ignored the supposed invasion. Clearly, the gameplay-story isn't aligned with the story-story.

Thankee.  I was quite pleased with the item's concept.  I'd love for someone to pick it up, notice that it does way more damage than it seems like it should, and wonder what's going on.  I envisioned the nails working kinda like Superglue for the Archmage Soul.  Yah, he's getting bound by the nails, but the magic involved is intense enough that he's stuck on there real good.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on February 24, 2008, 07:41:13 pm
What kind of comments are you looking for on this, Vince? Is there any thought of David being involved in AoD, or is this strictly a "what-if" exercise for the far future? In any case, I'm not sure it makes sense to pick a team member based on forum responses to a short writing sample and "mission statement" -- at the very least, it would make sense to first open up the position to any interested parties and have a standardized application that could be compared/contrasted between the interested parties. Then post all of those to the forums if you so desire; but it's hard to give any kind of constructive criticism when our sample size is one.

More specific comments:

I love the item description. I'd really like to see David take a crack at the weapon descriptions (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=217.0) I was working with. I suspect his descriptions will be somewhere between yours (Vince's) and mine, and perhaps a bit wittier than either -- which seemed to be what people were calling for in that thread.

The location description is fine, but nothing special, at least as presented. It doesn't really grab me or make me want to find out more about the bar -- but if there's a more interesting backstory or if David has ideas on what would be going on there, then my opinion could easily change.

I'm not thrilled with the continuation of the Morte story. I do really like the writing and the dialog -- it's remarkably similar to Vince's own style, in fact. I don't know whether that's conscious or not, but it blends very well with AoD, which is great. What I don't like is that it doesn't seem to demonstrate any of the ideas David talked about in his "mission statement" or any of the ideas Vince has put forth as key to the concept of Age of Decadence. In particular, there are absolutely no skill checks or real ways to roleplay the character. If the player asks how he could help, he evidently has no choice but to take the nail -- this kind of forced surprising action by the character is something I've railed against in the past. If the player asks how to help, he has no opportunity to use that information in any way except to "solve" the quest exactly as described by the quest giver. I'd rather be able to trade that information to magical researchers or use your knowledge that he's bound to the nail to "permanently" eliminate him by tossing the nail into the sea. The varying effects of the level of the enemy killed with the nail is nice, and the surprise of having a negative effect for most thoroughly satisfying his request definitely fits the Tough Love (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=175.0) concept, for better or worse. On the other hand, the consequences are all immediate, limited, and easily reloaded around. I liked the mention of potential future ramifications for smashing the skeleton, but (if we're supposed to be judging David's suitability to join Iron Tower based on this) I would really like to have known what those consequences would be. As it stands, this quest is entirely self-contained, has no skill checks, and presents no challenge except (possibly) for combat; with the exception of superficial changes to reward at the various end (something even Baldur's Gate 1 had), the quest is also linear with exactly one solution. (Two if you count smashing the skeleton, but given that nothing further happens if you do so and that there's no other way simply to leave the dialog, I'm not sure you should count it.)

Now, I like a lot of what was said in general in the "mission statement." The explicit focus on story telling through gameplay mechanics seems like a solid approach to take to RPG design. However, a lot of it fell apart for me when David got into the specifics.

The Backstab example, for instance, sounded quite nice at first; but on thinking it over, I couldn't quite see his point. When he said "it adds a reason for any “be nice” dialogue options past 'feel like a good person' or 'get a reward'", I thought his point was that tying story telling into game mechanics allows the designer to eliminate superficial (Bioware-style) fake choices, which I thought was great. But in the very next sentence, he said "he player could easily have been nice to an NPC then attacked them without Backstab, but Backstab makes the two actions related, and that’s what separates a quality story and setting from a set of graphics and statistical arrays" and completely lost me. If the player could just as easily have done that, why have the Backstab option? Isn't it then completely superficial -- essentially just LARPing? If the Backstab ability doesn't make something possible in a gameplay sense that otherwise would not have been, then I fail to see how it adds anything. Artificially adding a backstab mechanic isn't what "makes the two actions related" -- instead it should be the designer's job to create a situation in which it makes sense that befriending the NPC will make it easier to kill him. (For example, the designer could have the NPC heavily guarded, unless the player befriends him to the point of being invited inside his home, at which point the player can more easily kill the NPC -- then the befriending and the killing are related naturally, rather than forced by an unnecessary mechanic.)

Then you get
Quote
If I were to write a computer game, I’d like the ability to control the setting in more ways than just descriptions and dialog trees
which sounds great, if a little vague. But David's example of this is that he would make equipment expensive and the interior of the city totally badass so that you have to reload and then go level up before you could take on the harder areas? What? Unless I'm missing something, not only is that example almost completely unrelated to what he seems to want, but also extremely far from revolutionary. I mean, I agree -- it's nice to have hard areas in an RPG so that you can come back and feel the satisfaction of having improved enough to take them on . . . but I'd hardly call that a sterling example of writing.

Don't get me wrong -- there are some great things in what David has written. Like I said, I really love the item description. Phrases like "not a town where everyone knows your name and wants you to bring them a watering can for their home-grown tomatoes", "put enough stuff like that around and they’ll bump into some of it", and "you’re a tiny part of a vast world in which stuff happens without revolving around you" are really encouraging.

Ultimately, I think it's entirely impossible to judge David's abilities based on this. I think he's clearly a competent writer and it seems like he has some ideas that fit pretty well into the Iron Tower ethos. On the other  hand, I don't feel the same sense of awe I sometimes do when reading game design stuff by Vince, Priapist/Section8, galsiah, or Gareth (the magic system you've been posting about over at the Codex kicks ass, man). You need more if you're going to find someone else to write/design for Iron Tower. Honestly, I think you should require a playable piece of game from all applicants, not just general ideas -- either give them access to AoD's dev tools, or request a short NWN/NWN2 module (using existing art assets to focus on the writing/design) to certain specifications that you decide on.



Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 24, 2008, 09:58:40 pm
What kind of comments are you looking for on this, Vince? Is there any thought of David being involved in AoD...
AoD is done, so there isn't much to do there. If AoD sells well, I'd like to start working on two projects. In other words, a good writer/designer multiclass party member will be exactly what I need.

Quote
In any case, I'm not sure it makes sense to pick a team member based on forum responses to a short writing sample and "mission statement" -- at the very least, it would make sense to first open up the position to any interested parties and have a standardized application that could be compared/contrasted between the interested parties. Then post all of those to the forums if you so desire; but it's hard to give any kind of constructive criticism when our sample size is one.
I'm a big fan of initiative. As for the second point, I'm sure that you can easily evaluate David's writing, style, and design ideas without comparing them to anyone else's submissions. Do you like the style, the imagination, the design; would you like to play a game designed by this guy; what are his strong/weak sides, etc. In my opinion, he's is pretty good writer (much better than I'm), he has interesting design ideas, but not all of them fit our design philosophy, and he isn't ready to give up the combat focus.

For example:

"You start off in a city... a big fucking city where the only reason someone would care about you is if you’re in their way."
Love it. Brilliant.

"There’s a weapons store nearby and you check it out.  You have a bit of money but everything’s out of your price range.  Not just “save all your pennies in a jar” out of your price range, but “sell all your extended family into slavery” out of your price range.  You check your inventory and see that you’re carrying a Dagger of Suckiness..."
Not so good. You are forcing the player to grind, David, which is a sin, btw. You give him a shitty dagger, show him the good stuff, and tell him that he must grind like a motherfucker to get a decent weapon. If you can see bad design in linear monster progression, you should be able to see bad design in linear weapon progression.

"Head much deeper into the city and you get mugged, with an outcome that by now should be predictable.  So you reload and head out of the city and do adventurey stuff there until you are burly, clever, or intimidating enough to get past the muggers."
Forcing the player again, aren't we? You show him something, then tell him that he can't have it, and send him away to work on his anti-social skills. You have a great "tough town" concept - that's imaginative. Forcing the player to grind until he's tough enough isn't. Find a place for your character *in* that town. Throw him in the gutter or the garbage dump and force him to fight for food scraps - now that's something.

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I love the item description.
The description is good, but it's the cleverly designed item that truly shines.

Quote
The location description is fine, but nothing special, at least as presented. It doesn't really grab me or make me want to find out more about the bar -- but if there's a more interesting backstory or if David has ideas on what would be going on there, then my opinion could easily change.
Agree, it's not a very interesting place.

Quote
I'm not thrilled with the continuation of the Morte story. I do really like the writing and the dialog -- it's remarkably similar to Vince's own style, in fact. I don't know whether that's conscious or not, but it blends very well with AoD, which is great. What I don't like is that it doesn't seem to demonstrate any of the ideas David talked about in his "mission statement" or any of the ideas Vince has put forth as key to the concept of Age of Decadence. In particular, there are absolutely no skill checks or real ways to roleplay the character.
Agree again. Basically, you have to kill someone which gives you 3 uninteresting outcomes: Nazzeer leaves, Nazzeer gives you an item, Nazzeer attacks you. The writing and the style are good though and that's what the test was about.

I hope you don't mind my criticism, David.

Quote
Honestly, I think you should require a playable piece of game from all applicants, not just general ideas -- either give them access to AoD's dev tools, or request a short NWN/NWN2 module (using existing art assets to focus on the writing/design) to certain specifications that you decide on.
That would be a discouraging barrier for most "applicants". I think that my test, as simple as it was, demonstrated David's strong and, uh, not so strong sides perfectly. We agree that his writing is pretty damn good, the rest should be easy to fix.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Saint Genesius on February 24, 2008, 10:44:20 pm
cardtrick:  First, a bit of background.  I know startlingly little about AoD, Vince, Iron Tower, or really any of the specifics of what is going on here.  A week ago, I didn't know any of it existed.  I read Vince's rock paper shotgun interview, decided he's the sort of person I'm interested in working with and that I'd also probably be interested in working with anyone who's interested in working with him.  It seemed that certain aspects of his personality would weed out the undesirables.  I know the following about AoD.

1:  The contents of a single badass interview.
2:  A guy who does a badass interview is working on it.
3:  Within 5 minutes of visiting the Iron Tower website, you can find a badass picture of a steampunkish pentagram thing.

To me, this information was more than sufficient to look for employment of some sort.  Later, my knowledge came to include the contents of the post with the story I was supposed to complete and the contents of later posts in that thread.  I still know absolutely nothing else about AoD.  This is intentional.  It is far easier to go from knowing nothing to knowing something than it is to do the reverse and both states have their advantages.

You noticed that my writing seems very disconnected from AoD and you are absolutely correct.  It is also pretty self-contained for the same reason.  Also, if I was asked for a resume, I wouldn't put "To Be Continued" at the end of it.  I didn't have anything interact with the AoD world because I don't know what it is.  Since it's a writing sample, and not an actual game, I didn't throw in enough backstory to make things work on the levels I like.  The philosophy is mostly just there to point out that I'm not interesting in just cranking out item descriptions, room descriptions and dialog trees.  The bar description is the weakest bit, imo, but part of what I thought I was doing, judging by the samples he wanted was to show that I can throw something general in there.  I certainly did try to match my style to the scene I was continuing to show that I could adapt easily.  For the item description, I went with something you might find in PST, for a bevy of obvious reasons.  Vince didn't include the end of my submission here, perhaps because he thought I was planning on using it for something else, perhaps because he might like to use it for something else, but it's written in a very different style and was definitely the most fun part of the submission to write.  If he wants to put that up, that'd be fine by me.

Back to specific problems.  There can be a lot more going on with the Nazzeer story you're your giving it credit for, but a lot of that is because it's lacking context.  Ideally, I'd want you to get the quest at a time when doing the "hard" ending fight is impossible, but the mid-level reward is quite nice.  Also, I'd like the reward from killing Nazzeer to be top-notch, so there are reasons to take the quick item or to hold out until you can deal with the fight.  I could've said that the golden ball is an amazing Ioun stone or something, but I have no idea what would fit and there struck me as being no reason why it would be fixed.  There are too many variables for me to write any of that stuff in a meaningful way.

Similarly, Backstab would come down to specific implementation.  My idea was that if you accumulate a lot of trust, it doesn't do a "make the ensuing combat easier" level of damage, but "gonna need a mop."  I agree that the former isn't very interesting, but the latter can open up many avenues, such as taking out an important figure drastically earlier than you would be able to otherwise.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Saint Genesius on February 24, 2008, 11:19:13 pm
Vince:  I never said I'm not ready to give up the combat focus, but for one thing, if there are going to be multiple writers, it makes perfect sense that I'd try to be finding a niche where I think the design might otherwise be weak.

I don't think I'm forcing the player to grind at all, just politely asking them to leave.  I'm not asking them to leave and kill rats.  Having a kick-ass city doesn't mean that the countryside has to suck.  I just want to let them know what's out there.  http://www.sirlin.net/archive/the-power-of-pacing/
(No, I am not that David, but I agree with him on many points, this one in particular.)  I certainly want to show that cooler items don't just work in the same way as a sucky item, only with better stats, but have awesome effects associated with them.  The "linear weapon progression" idea isn't mine either.  I expect that your gear improves over the course of the game, which it pretty much has to unless it's either completely static or the player decides that they actively want worse equipment.  I loved the BGII approach, where quests generally give you a piece of amazing gear that can often be used throughout the entire game and where you might have to change your tactics drastically now that your fighter's swinging Celestial Fury.  If you don't want combat, take it out.  I'd be fine working on a project like that.  But if your perspective is that it's a second-class, dumbed-down dynamic in comparison with dialog, I'd certainly disagree.  You can navigate all the dialog in Fallout by giving your character high intelligence and choosing the wordiest options available.  It's a great read, but from a player-game interaction standpoint, not much is going on there.

And no, of course I don't mind criticism.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: puppyonastik on February 25, 2008, 12:05:10 am
I think David has a lot of potential and would like to see more of him (naked).


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 25, 2008, 10:38:50 am
Vince:  I never said I'm not ready to give up the combat focus...
I know. I simply commented on what you've submitted, and overall, as I said, I like it a lot.

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I don't think I'm forcing the player to grind at all, just politely asking them to leave.
Why? Let them discover on their own, when and if they want to explore the countryside.

Quote
I expect that your gear improves over the course of the game...
It does, but not dramatically. A good fighter would be as deadly with the shittiest bronze sword as he would be with the best in-game weapon. All weapons are available in the starting town at reasonable prices. You want to grab the biggest sword we have? Be my guest.

Quote
But if your perspective is that it's a second-class, dumbed-down dynamic in comparison with dialog...
Combat? No. We love combat. We've put a lot of thoughts in our combat system, so I can assure you that we don't see it as anything second-rated. However (!), non-combat ways are as important to us, and you'd have to design games with this principle in mind.

Quote
You can navigate all the dialog in Fallout by giving your character high intelligence and choosing the wordiest options available.  It's a great read, but from a player-game interaction standpoint, not much is going on there.
Well, make it interactive then. Throw in different choices leading to different things, throw in text adventures, throw in options that get "Holy Fuck! I can do THAT?! What else can I do?" reaction, etc. I agree that bumping up your INT and speech skill and clicking on the wordiest dialogue line is boring, but it's up to you to improve it.

Edit: Exploring non-combat gameplay will be my next "old man's ramblings" topic.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: TheLostOne on February 25, 2008, 01:00:07 pm
I like David's writing style.

I like that he's got his own ideas which aren't pure indoctrinated codexian.

That said, I hope if/when AoD is a success and you're starting a second team that you publicly announce openings at least on this website.  I think you may find that there at a few here that would be very interested in applying.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Saint Genesius on February 25, 2008, 06:22:36 pm
TheLostOne:  Thanks.  I'm definitely trying to keep a different perspective, though I suspect that we're talking at cross-purposes on certain issues.  At the heart of it all, I'm after a good story by any means possible.  I think that's something everyone here wants.  Unfortunately, if I follow this train of thought much longer, I'll wind up talking about my feelings while crying into a pint of Ben & Jerry's.  This must be stopped.  *clears throat unnecessarily, considering that I'm typing*  All of your mothers are whores.  Their mothers?  Also whores.  They are the whores that other whores go to when those whores want to pay for sex.

Back to the discussion. 

I'm not Vince, of course, but here's a bit more applied philosophy since the first bit didn't sit well with most people and if nothing else, the following theory has proven effectiveness.  Part of what open-ended game design means to me is that the player should have opportunity to solves problems in ways that are not obviously presented to them.  It's like the story of the Gordian Knot http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordian_Knot 

I would expect a player in an open-ended game to look for solutions like that and capitalize on them.  I would expect a developer to look for them even harder.  Therefore, it baffles me that so many people would be so interested in working for Iron Tower without seeing if they can find employment, and it further baffles me that one of those people could read this thread, see a potential solution to the "job acquiring quest" and still sit around hoping that Real Life will come out with a new patch to fix all those pesky balance issues.

I think David has a lot of potential and would like to see more of him (naked).


puppyonastik was sitting alone on a dark path, right? He wasn't certain of which direction to go, and he'd forgotten both where he was traveling to and whom he was. He'd sat down for a moment to rest his weary legs, and suddenly looked up to see an elderly woman before him. She grinned toothlessly and with a cackle, spoke: "Now your *third* wish. What will it be?""Third wish?" puppyonastik was baffled. "How can it be a third wish if I haven't had a first and second wish?""You've had two wishes already," the hag said, "but your second wish was for me to return everything to the way it was before you had made your first wish. That's why you remember nothing; because everything is the way it was before you made any wishes." She cackled at the poor berk. "So it is that you have one wish left.""All right," said puppyonastik, "I don't believe this, but there's no harm in wishing. I wish to see David naked.""Funny," said the old woman as she granted his wish and disappeared forever. "That was your first wish."


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Nick on February 25, 2008, 07:00:02 pm
If we would have karma system enabled on this forum, the post above would be a perfect reason for "+1" :D


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Palmer Eldritch on February 26, 2008, 02:47:35 am
"Part of what open-ended game design means to me is that the player should have opportunity to solves problems in ways that are not obviously presented to them.  It's like the story of the Gordian Knot"

Hire this man already. I never thought of the Gordian Knot in connection with game design, but it really made me reflect on how the interactivity in p&p could be transferred to a crpg.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: GhanBuriGhan on February 26, 2008, 02:55:38 am

puppyonastik was sitting alone on a dark path, right? He wasn't certain of which direction to go, and he'd forgotten both where he was traveling to and whom he was. He'd sat down for a moment to rest his weary legs, and suddenly looked up to see an elderly woman before him. She grinned toothlessly and with a cackle, spoke: "Now your *third* wish. What will it be?""Third wish?" puppyonastik was baffled. "How can it be a third wish if I haven't had a first and second wish?""You've had two wishes already," the hag said, "but your second wish was for me to return everything to the way it was before you had made your first wish. That's why you remember nothing; because everything is the way it was before you made any wishes." She cackled at the poor berk. "So it is that you have one wish left.""All right," said puppyonastik, "I don't believe this, but there's no harm in wishing. I wish to see David naked.""Funny," said the old woman as she granted his wish and disappeared forever. "That was your first wish."

Well, NOW you are showing some real talent :)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: puppyonastik on February 26, 2008, 04:57:39 am

puppyonastik was sitting alone on a dark path, right? He wasn't certain of which direction to go, and he'd forgotten both where he was traveling to and whom he was. He'd sat down for a moment to rest his weary legs, and suddenly looked up to see an elderly woman before him. She grinned toothlessly and with a cackle, spoke: "Now your *third* wish. What will it be?""Third wish?" puppyonastik was baffled. "How can it be a third wish if I haven't had a first and second wish?""You've had two wishes already," the hag said, "but your second wish was for me to return everything to the way it was before you had made your first wish. That's why you remember nothing; because everything is the way it was before you made any wishes." She cackled at the poor berk. "So it is that you have one wish left.""All right," said puppyonastik, "I don't believe this, but there's no harm in wishing. I wish to see David naked.""Funny," said the old woman as she granted his wish and disappeared forever. "That was your first wish."

Brought a tear to my eye. :) Now I want to see the witch naked. Please continue! Include something about a 20 foot chicken, a spray bottle, and Steven Hawking and you'll forever win my admiration.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Saint Genesius on February 26, 2008, 11:00:26 pm
Just in case not everyone's clear, the three wishes thing is almost directly lifted from PS:T and was based on an old joke before that, so it's about as unoriginal as you can possibly get.

Brought a tear to my eye. :) Now I want to see the witch naked. Please continue! Include something about a 20 foot chicken, a spray bottle, and Steven Hawking and you'll forever win my admiration.

Unless, I'm working on comission, there's no way I'd write this story, but I'll give you a quick plot summary of how it would go if I did.  The chicken feels like an awkward misfit because of her size.  Stephen Hawking hires the chicken to wash his windows (using the spray bottle) since he obviously can't wash them himself and the chicken's unusual height makes her well-suited for the job.  The chicken feels accepted, but then gets cooked and eaten because she's worth more as the world's largest fried chicken than as a window-washer.

edit:  AoD combat video #2 thread?  Really?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Nick on February 27, 2008, 01:41:11 pm
edit:  AoD combat video #2 thread?  Really?

That's an old RPGCodex tradition - not to give a fuck about thread name and to talk about anything you want =)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: jeansberg on March 06, 2008, 04:38:41 am
According to the Youtube comments AOD is trying to copy Rs.

Rs? Runescape.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Morbus on March 06, 2008, 07:59:29 am
According to the Youtube comments AOD is trying to copy Rs.

Rs? Runescape.
According to Youtube comments Fable is the best RPG ever...


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Priapist on March 06, 2008, 07:25:24 pm
My favourite Youtube comment of all time, from the Lemon Party Commercial (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9shrf3s5Wgo).

Quote
Uhhh? These comments must be linked to the wrong video. What I saw was a bunch of elderly men making out, yet I'm reading comments like "brilliant, and genius"


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Brother None on March 06, 2008, 08:29:00 pm
My favourite Youtube comment of all time, from the Lemon Party Commercial ([url]http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=9shrf3s5Wgo[/url]).


Why is that flagged inappropriate? Are old men in underwear not suitable for minors?

Also, Wikipedia has a great page on Lemon Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_Party)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Jedi_Learner on March 30, 2008, 03:17:11 pm
We have a push attack planned (you can push and knock enemies down with your shield), but I'm not sure if it make into the game.

Any updates on this?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on March 30, 2008, 04:51:04 pm
Nope. Too early to say.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Starwars on March 30, 2008, 05:05:53 pm
Any new videos in the making/planned for the near future?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Jedi_Learner on May 15, 2008, 10:22:59 am
Any new videos in the making/planned for the near future?


Vince did mention a 'town life (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=145.msg3069#msg3069)' video last year?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: ninjelephant on May 15, 2008, 11:43:54 am
I was planning to make a new topic these days about it :D
It has been almost half a year from last video, can we start expecting the new one soon, or are you going to wait with the video before publishing to increase teh hype  ;)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: John Yossarian on May 15, 2008, 01:06:05 pm
Didn't we tell them not to publish any new videos until they got sounds?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on May 22, 2008, 12:53:35 pm
Didn't we tell them not to publish any new videos until they got sounds?

I know that I at least said that, and still think it's good advice. Not that I'm not looking forward to a new video, though . . .


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Granite on May 22, 2008, 10:08:24 pm
Hey, Vince, I can't see why you decided not to implement unarmed combat. In the name of realism? If so, I have to tell you that I saw (twice, and not in a movie!) an unarmed guy overcoming a armed one.
And even if I would never use a Unarmed Combat skill if there was one, I think it's a must have for any RPG. It adds a lot to the Replayability.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on May 23, 2008, 12:04:23 am
Hey, Vince, I can't see why you decided not to implement unarmed combat. In the name of realism? If so, I have to tell you that I saw (twice, and not in a movie!) an unarmed guy overcoming a armed one.
And even if I would never use a Unarmed Combat skill if there was one, I think it's a must have for any RPG. It adds a lot to the Replayability.

That was sarcastic, right?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Granite on May 23, 2008, 12:19:33 am
A little bit, but just when I gave that example.
I really think it's fun crushing my foe's skulls with bare hands! Wouldn't say it's necessary, but the presence of Unarmed combat is interesting.
I suppose that you, just like Vince, think this is totally dispensable. I disagree, but withdraw what I said about it being a must have for any RPG.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on May 23, 2008, 01:42:20 am
Well, I just assumed you had to be being facetious when you said that you would never use an Unarmed Combat skill, and yet claimed that it added to replayability.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Granite on May 23, 2008, 01:56:18 am
That's true... I probably would never pick Unarmed as a main skill, but... I always want to do that, cause I know it's very fun... but I can't, because... oh, I don't know how to express what I feel...  :\
I want to use it, but I don't want to use it. That's it. Explained.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: jeansberg on May 23, 2008, 02:30:14 am
Maybe you should make your own mind up before trying to share your opinions. ;)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Squirly on May 23, 2008, 02:35:56 am
I was actually wondering about Unarmed combat. There are are enough combat skills, it's not that - but I always enjoyed me a good re-arranging of the face. Any specific reasons why, or is it just a case of enough is enough?

Sorry if this has been asked and answered, I searched but did not find.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on May 23, 2008, 09:34:18 am
It's just a matter of limited resources and having to draw the line somewhere. I remember Vince saying at some point that they decided against adding an unarmed skill because it would actually be quite a lot of work for a not-very-significant benefit. The main reason for this is that unarmed fighting couldn't use any of the pre-existing animations for any of the weapon skills, so adding it would be quite expensive in terms of man-hours.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on May 23, 2008, 09:42:51 am
We've decided to leave unarmed combat for a sequel featuring two new factions: pirates and ninjas. The sequel is still in pre-production because we can't agree which faction is more awesome and how to balance the game if someone joins BOTH factions, thus becoming absolutely unstoppable.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: cardtrick on May 23, 2008, 09:59:04 am
In before "A game with pirates and ninjas fighting actually would be awesome! Do it!".


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Euchrid on May 23, 2008, 10:27:32 am
Even more awesome if you add Monks.
Speaking of which, is AOD's setting/story in any way influenced by A Canticle for Leibowitz?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on May 23, 2008, 10:39:14 am
No. Good book though.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Euchrid on May 23, 2008, 11:27:01 pm
Okay, just that I know you'd mentioned somewhere having read it, and with AOD sharing a similar global theme, I wondered whether you may have drawn on it in some way. On re-reading it recently, the forgetting of pre-war knowledge and the story focusing on its recovery, was something that resonated with the little I know of AOD's story and world situation. Though, this is of course a common theme in post-apoc narratives.

Anyway, thanks for the answer.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Jedi_Learner on June 29, 2008, 12:54:09 pm
We have 7 combat tracks and 11 non-combat ones. It's unlikely that one will like them all equally, since such things are highly subjective.

Edit: That was in response to Jedi's post, which he decided to delete for some reasons.

I like it now. :-[


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: sport on August 31, 2008, 02:20:42 pm
Being that there's so many pages in the thread, is there anything said on sound being added to combat for attacks?  Will there be any?  As it seems odd to have people swinging, dodging, shooting, and throwing all without sound.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on August 31, 2008, 03:08:05 pm
Sound will be added.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Hector on August 31, 2008, 07:01:34 pm
Sound will be added.
Any chance of the same video re-edited with sound?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on August 31, 2008, 07:03:02 pm
Why the same video? To show the difference? If yes, sure.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Hector on August 31, 2008, 07:09:16 pm
Why the same video? To show the difference? If yes, sure.
That's pretty much the same reason, though if you have a third combat video in mind I've no problem waiting ;)


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Lainestin on September 18, 2008, 02:13:55 pm
Will there be more videos soon and if so, what will they showcase?
We have a "town life" video and a "quest walkthrough in screenshots" article planned. The article is for GameBanshee. 

Is a town life video still in the works or was that scrapped?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Bradr on September 19, 2008, 12:14:47 pm
Hey guys, first time poster, and the game looks wonderful!  Bout time someone brought back some quality good old turn based gaming. 

Been reading around the forums for a bit and had a few questions:
Firstly, regarding combat skills.  Does the throw skill encompass all thrown objects or just objects considered thrown only weapons?  Such as if I have very low throw skill, but very high spear skill, will I be adept at throwing spears?

Secondly, in the skills:alchemy description, there is mention of healing potions.  I read somewhere on here that there would be salves, but no potions.  Mistake or are there truly healing potions available?

Thirdly, I believe I read on another post that Vince was considering lowering the overall stat point pool at the beginning of the game.  Would there ever be a way to adjust stat points given at character design?  I love choices and every once and a while I want to create a really powerful character.  Maybe something like another background? 
Commoner - 10 stat points - From common blood, you grew up with nothing but what you have forged for yourself. 
Hero - 15 points - You are descended from great people and have been afforded all of the training and ability one can expect from a person of your ancestry.
Legend - 20 points - Your blood comes from the people of legends, you have always excelled in everything you have put your mind to.  You received the best training and genetics and it shows.

Almost like choosing hard, normal, or easy difficulty.

Just thought I'd put that and get an opinion or two.  I also heard there would be no cheats or modability for characters -  so more choices at character creation would give more replay value.  Oh well, any thoughts?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Jaime Lannister on September 19, 2008, 06:23:05 pm
The "commoner, noble, legend" idea is racist and terrible. Why should your ancestors determine how powerful you are?

Just do:

Easy: 20 points
Medium: 15 points
Hard: 10 points


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Felix on September 19, 2008, 08:54:17 pm
OMFG
That was awesome.  :o

-The combat system reminds me of Hoshigami, which i loved.
-Everything runs very smooth, and the animation when the character grabs the javelin in the air to to throw it, is simply perfect.
-I really liked the aimed attacks, something i always expected in a game.
-The "absorbed damage" system of the armor is great. I think is way much better than the tipical bonus to not being hit.

 Opinions:
I can only be nitpicky, everything looks to good and didn't see any ovbious.

-Aside that you (and other people) mentioned sounds for the attacks, will be there something else visual too? (a simple example would be blood.)
-Will be there a diferent animation for unarmed/disarmed character in combat? it seems to be the same when the character is out of combat. Not a big deal, tho.
-Is it possible to have some effect on the health bar when the character is injured? Not a big deal neither, it should be easier to know when actually you lose life. Something like a quick red blinking or the like.
-Seeing that the armor is what it takes the damage, will be there some skill/weapon/effect to broke it? Or it will broke at certain point?
-Terrain will grant bonuses/penalties?


Seriously, can't wait to try it. Again, the combat system is perfect, at least for my personal tastes. :)



Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Hector on September 19, 2008, 11:30:08 pm
The "commoner, noble, legend" idea is racist and terrible. Why should your ancestors determine how powerful you are?

Just do:

Easy: 20 points
Medium: 15 points
Hard: 10 points

How is this racist?  I wouldn't recommend it myself, but the race card has no place here.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Nick on September 20, 2008, 04:36:09 am
-Aside that you (and other people) mentioned sounds for the attacks, will be there something else visual too? (a simple example would be blood.)
There is blood there. Hardly visible on the video, maybe, because of the compression.

Quote
-Will be there a diferent animation for unarmed/disarmed character in combat? it seems to be the same when the character is out of combat. Not a big deal, tho.
Unarmed characters are not in combat, so it's not that important, in our opinion.

Quote
-Is it possible to have some effect on the health bar when the character is injured? Not a big deal neither, it should be easier to know when actually you lose life. Something like a quick red blinking or the like.
Maybe, though it doesn't sound like a must - you have a text box for that.

Quote
-Seeing that the armor is what it takes the damage, will be there some skill/weapon/effect to broke it? Or it will broke at certain point?
Acid, for example.

Quote
-Terrain will grant bonuses/penalties?
No.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Anonxeuix on September 20, 2008, 07:16:30 am
Yes I believe a little blood adds so much to the fight, though Nick said it's there just not visible due to the compression, so we'll take his word for it ;)

I thirst for another combat video.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Felix on September 20, 2008, 08:25:57 am


Quote
There is blood there. Hardly visible on the video, maybe, because of the compression.
I meant when a charcter is struck in combat, i've seen the spreading blood pool when the charcter is already dead (quite realistic and cool).
But if you say is there, i'll trust you :)

Quote
Unarmed characters are not in combat, so it's not that important, in our opinion.
Aha, so if you're disarmed, you're out of combat...interesting approach.
There isn't "unarmed fight" or the like, then...


Quote
Maybe, though it doesn't sound like a must
Nay :)
Just being nitpicky. Tho it would make things easier, isn't really necessary. gaylord stuff, i guess ;)

Quote
Acid, for example.
Alchemy?
Awesome!

Btw, i do think that graphics  are important. And i think that many, many people too.
If people that asks about nice visuals are graphic whores or gaylords...then heck, i'm a fucking fairy :P







Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Anonxeuix on September 20, 2008, 08:35:26 am
I believe graphics add to the atmosphere of a game. I'd rather call it art, as graphics seem to imply "shiny, sharper textures and 3D models", while art implies the beauty of the setting and your surroundings. You can appreciate the art in 10-15 year old games. That said, I can't play a game which is say, 20 years old, like Ultima.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Oscar on September 20, 2008, 09:10:32 am
Quote
I meant when a charcter is struck in combat, i've seen the spreading blood pool when the charcter is already dead (quite realistic and cool).
But if you say is there, i'll trust you

Yep, it's there. Perhaps we should make it bigger, though.

Quote
Nay
Just being nitpicky. Tho it would make things easier, isn't really necessary. gaylord stuff, i guess

You also have the mouse over tooltip that tells you the current state of the enemy (Healthy, Wounded, Badly Wounded, Almost Dead).


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on September 21, 2008, 12:14:01 pm
Is a town life video still in the works or was that scrapped?
On hold for now. The reaction to the combat video was somewhat negative. Our usual "work in progress; just showing you what we have so far" didn't really work there. So, now we would prefer to show more polished, more trailer-y. We'll do it but a bit later.

Firstly, regarding combat skills.  Does the throw skill encompass all thrown objects or just objects considered thrown only weapons?  Such as if I have very low throw skill, but very high spear skill, will I be adept at throwing spears?
No. Spear skill means using a spear effectively in close combat. If you want to throw things, that's Throwing skill.

Quote
Secondly, in the skills:alchemy description, there is mention of healing potions.  I read somewhere on here that there would be salves, but no potions.  Mistake or are there truly healing potions available?
No potions. Salve only.

Quote
Thirdly, I believe I read on another post that Vince was considering lowering the overall stat point pool at the beginning of the game.  Would there ever be a way to adjust stat points given at character design?  I love choices and every once and a while I want to create a really powerful character.  Maybe something like another background? 
Commoner - 10 stat points - From common blood, you grew up with nothing but what you have forged for yourself. 
Hero - 15 points - You are descended from great people and have been afforded all of the training and ability one can expect from a person of your ancestry.
Legend - 20 points - Your blood comes from the people of legends, you have always excelled in everything you have put your mind to.  You received the best training and genetics and it shows.

Almost like choosing hard, normal, or easy difficulty.
Sounds like an interesting solution, but I'm not sure that someone would actually pick "commoner". I know a lot of people who simply couldn't resist taking Gifted in Fallout. Not taking it felt like weakening their character on purpose. So, most likely we'll decide what the best, most balanced amount of stat points is and go with it.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Felix on September 21, 2008, 12:56:54 pm
Quote from: Vince
The reaction to the combat video was somewhat negative. Our usual "work in progress; just showing you what we have so far" didn't really work there.

Really??
Bah, don't pay attention. No matter how polished -even finished- the video could be, and how many times you say " what we have so far", gaylords will always complaint. Always. I do  :-[

I'll bet that almost everyone here would play the game right now if you give them the choice, even those with really negative feedback.

Btw, the combat system is awesome. I think is better than most going around actually, at a ToEE level, and better in some points. Seriously, tactical geeks will praise it. :)

Now release another video!  :mad:


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Anonxeuix on September 21, 2008, 01:03:44 pm
Now release another video!  :mad:

I concur. My hunger is insatiable.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Pastel on September 21, 2008, 04:28:55 pm
Also combat artical plz.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Argence on September 22, 2008, 11:51:13 am
Videos can wait, like you said Vince. No use pausing progress repeatedly and delaying the game further to show things that are still being worked on. Personally, I'd release a few videos while its in testing, almost ready to come out. With the exception of the people following the forums regularly, most folks are going to have a rather short attention span.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Jedi_Learner on February 04, 2009, 03:23:08 pm
We have a push attack planned (you can push and knock enemies down with your shield), but I'm not sure if it make into the game.

Any updates on this?

Nope. Too early to say.

How about now? :D


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Vince on February 04, 2009, 03:25:51 pm
It's on the "stuff that we'd like to add but may not be able to due to time constraints" list. I highly doubt it will be in the demo.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: KillerAnt on February 05, 2009, 04:37:39 pm
Loved the video! This game will be great, for me the most important thing is game play and story. And now you also have great graphics. I can´t wait until Thursday when it comes out. I´ve missed a good turn based RPGs for such a long long time....


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: krow feast on April 08, 2009, 02:15:44 pm
i'm  just excited to be able to play a good video game sometime soon. It's been a long time. :wallbang:


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Anonxeuix on April 09, 2009, 08:03:05 am
Shit, thought it was a new video :( *goes back to lurking*


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: ceson on April 09, 2009, 02:04:05 pm
Why would you... thought this was a new one as well... *sigh*  :'(


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Tiavals on April 10, 2009, 07:46:02 am

Quote
Thirdly, I believe I read on another post that Vince was considering lowering the overall stat point pool at the beginning of the game.  Would there ever be a way to adjust stat points given at character design?  I love choices and every once and a while I want to create a really powerful character.  Maybe something like another background? 
Commoner - 10 stat points - From common blood, you grew up with nothing but what you have forged for yourself. 
Hero - 15 points - You are descended from great people and have been afforded all of the training and ability one can expect from a person of your ancestry.
Legend - 20 points - Your blood comes from the people of legends, you have always excelled in everything you have put your mind to.  You received the best training and genetics and it shows.

Almost like choosing hard, normal, or easy difficulty.
Sounds like an interesting solution, but I'm not sure that someone would actually pick "commoner". I know a lot of people who simply couldn't resist taking Gifted in Fallout. Not taking it felt like weakening their character on purpose. So, most likely we'll decide what the best, most balanced amount of stat points is and go with it.

There's actually a very simple solution to it really. Just have a highscore list in the game that shows which difficulty you played the game on, possibly even a partially online one. I know plenty of people love seeing their name on a list that proves them to be "hardcore" by playing the game with a higher difficulty.

That said, most people would certainly choose the most stat points(me included), but this way some people might choose the "lesser" options.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: avatarrr on April 11, 2009, 04:36:31 am
Actually, I think I have a better idea. Vince, Nick, Oscar and co. - consider having 7 different "difficulty" levels - next level of difficulty will be unlocked after completing a game with one class. So, if someone finishes a game by playing an assassin, he can take a next level which will have somehow increased difficulty. However, in order to play that level he needs to choose a different class than the classes he already finished game with (e.g. assassin).

Such approach would encourage replayability and provide more challenge for those who know the game very well from previous playthrougs. Of course higher difficulty levels could be very arbitrary, e.g.:

Level 1 : Normal game
Level 2 : -1 to all skill points
Level 3 : -1 to stat point
Level 4 : -1 to stat point - 2 to all skill points
and so on...

Having an option of putting later a scoreboard of such 7 playthroughs on the internet would help as well with replayability. Almost all people like bragging about how hardcore they are at beating a game ;)


Quote
Thirdly, I believe I read on another post that Vince was considering lowering the overall stat point pool at the beginning of the game.  Would there ever be a way to adjust stat points given at character design?  I love choices and every once and a while I want to create a really powerful character.  Maybe something like another background? 
Commoner - 10 stat points - From common blood, you grew up with nothing but what you have forged for yourself. 
Hero - 15 points - You are descended from great people and have been afforded all of the training and ability one can expect from a person of your ancestry.
Legend - 20 points - Your blood comes from the people of legends, you have always excelled in everything you have put your mind to.  You received the best training and genetics and it shows.

Almost like choosing hard, normal, or easy difficulty.
Sounds like an interesting solution, but I'm not sure that someone would actually pick "commoner". I know a lot of people who simply couldn't resist taking Gifted in Fallout. Not taking it felt like weakening their character on purpose. So, most likely we'll decide what the best, most balanced amount of stat points is and go with it.

There's actually a very simple solution to it really. Just have a highscore list in the game that shows which difficulty you played the game on, possibly even a partially online one. I know plenty of people love seeing their name on a list that proves them to be "hardcore" by playing the game with a higher difficulty.

That said, most people would certainly choose the most stat points(me included), but this way some people might choose the "lesser" options.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Scott on April 14, 2009, 03:18:21 pm
Making some variables changeable via a config file is the easiest way to make these details available to the hardcore player.  Anyone interested enough to want these changes would seek out the config file.  Added benefits:  no need to create a whole new interface menu; no worries about screwing up game balance for casual players.  If you mess with the config file, obviously you can expect it to unbalance the game.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: MaximB on April 15, 2009, 12:37:13 pm
Sorry to disappoint you avatarr , but there are no classes in this game.
Those are Backgrounds and this does not mean that if you chose the merchant background you cannot play a fighter.
 


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: FedericoV on May 03, 2009, 07:25:46 am
I liked the combat video a lot: it's very professional and the TB gameplay seems good. Having said that, I know that it's late to express such opinion, but I think that TB give its best when you controll a party. Controlling a single charachter in a TB combat could became boring at the long run, since you do not have lot of options to move your "pawns". Well, we will see, I do not think that the game will be focused only on combat, so it won't be a great problem  :D.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: erbgor on May 03, 2009, 03:24:57 pm
Controlling a single charachter in a TB combat could became boring at the long run, since you do not have lot of options to move your "pawns".


This "fact" seems to get more and more popular...I blame Mr. Vogel.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: FedericoV on May 03, 2009, 03:50:00 pm
Controlling a single charachter in a TB combat could became boring at the long run, since you do not have lot of options to move your "pawns".


This "fact" seems to get more and more popular...I blame Mr. Vogel.

It's far from being a fact, it's only my opinion. And honestly I do not know who is that Mr Vogel  :D. I like TB and tactical combat. But I think that TB is best suited for party-based games. If you can control only one character, especially in a game where most of the combats will be melee, I can't see how the combat will become more tactical because of the TB structure. Having said that, it would be unfair to judge those design choices without having actually played the game, there are lot of assumptions on my part, so I will wait and see ;).


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Claw on May 03, 2009, 10:08:31 pm
Herr Vogel hat'n Vogel.


That's German for "Mr. Vogel is bonkers."

I am very childish indeed.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Scott on May 04, 2009, 12:18:00 pm
But I think that TB is best suited for party-based games. If you can control only one character, especially in a game where most of the combats will be melee, I can't see how the combat will become more tactical because of the TB structure. Having said that, it would be unfair to judge those design choices without having actually played the game, there are lot of assumptions on my part, so I will wait and see ;).

You are judiciously open-minded, a welcome quality in forum posters.  Rules and systems being equal, multiple controlled characters do offer more tactical opportunities than a single character, however if you look into some of the discussion of combat for AoD, you will discover that the authors are making combat very deep and complex.  Also important to me personally, every type of weapon is being simulated with special care, so for example playing a spear-wielding character will be just as worthwhile as a sword-wielding character.  Most fantasy games presume the bow to be the default range weapon and the sword the default melee, and everything else feels like a flavour add-on.


Check out this recent update (http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=816.0) on tweaking of critical attacks and other details.  Just the tip of the iceberg mind you, but it gives some indication of the painstaking attention to combat being paid.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Gregorus Prime on May 12, 2009, 05:41:54 am
What is this foolishness? Anyone who's played Oblivion should know that swinging a rusty steel dagger and swinging a heavy maul made out of diamond-hard black volcanic glass infused with the twisted remnants of Daedra souls both work in exactly the same way.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Gregorus Prime on May 14, 2009, 08:16:51 pm
Sorry to double-post, but I did have a question that I don't see the answer to (maybe I'm not looking hard enough though):

Have the "polite" (as some called them) animations been replaced with some more visceral ones? I saw a quote somewhere from Vince to the effect that it might be too late to fix them; has that changed?


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Oscar on May 14, 2009, 08:37:19 pm
First of all we implemented a speed slider, so you can speed up the animations if you find them slow. The attack animations are the same as in the video, but we added more death animations that look pretty nice, and a brutal death animations for every weapon. I'll ask if I can post a video of one of them.


Title: Re: AoD combat video #2
Post by: Gregorus Prime on May 15, 2009, 02:42:10 am
Well, I didn't think they were slow, really, just lacking in oomph. The death animations were actually the ones I liked best, so the fact that you're adding even more of them makes me happy.

And yes, by all means, post more videos!