Title: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 18, 2009, 07:15:35 pm We're experimenting with the endings. Yeah, I know it's a combat demo, but it does have some choices and we thought it would be nice to have some final words. I wrote something quick and lulzy, which was criticized and rejected. Then I woke up Gareth and here is what we came up with:
This is 1 out of 14 (if you count all options) endings: * * * The arena champion stumbles backwards, sword falling from his hands as he tries to stop the blood gushing from his wound. His eyes lose focus and he falls slowly to the sand. You are the champion now. Twenty people who fought against you paid for your new title with their lives. Not bad, all things considered. Some people kill a lot more and end up with a lot less. The Arena Master greets you with a wide smile. It better be sincere. The fucker made a fortune on you. "I have received two job offers for you." Charging for his services, no doubt. "Lord Antidas would like to offer you Dellar's job. You'll be his right hand man, in charge of mercenaries and 'special projects', undoubtedly involving killing Gaelius' people. Teron is a shithole, of course, but the post is important. " You consider this prospect as he continues. "Lord Gaelius wants you to join his praetorian guards. It’s a modest position, but House Aurelian is the most powerful House. The future belongs to them, so it might be unwise to bet on the underdog. " A praetorian guard? You, the Champion of the fucking Arena? He's gotta be fucking kidding. It's almost an insult. What did one of the dead Emperors say? "I'd rather be first in command of a village than second in the capital city." Teron it is then. You return to the inn, order a round of drinks just to get people off your back, and go upstairs. Before you have a chance to take off your armor, the Imperial Guards open the door with a kick. Right, you killed Carbo, their captain. You almost forgot, but they sure didn't. You have to pay for everything in this life, even when you do nothing wrong. You have two options: fight six veteran soldiers or escape through the window. Neither option fits into your definition of a "good idea", but the window offers better odds. Before the guards realize what's happening, you are already outside, sliding down the roof. You land softly on your feet and disappear into the crowd. Several guards are sent after you, but they don't return. A week later you arrive to Teron. The old man has problems with the Imperial Guards. Who doesn't these day? What's that saying? "Do unto others before they do it unto you." Looks like you will be busy for awhile... * * * Anyway, I thought about using this "storytelling" style for the game. You play the game and then read a short story about your adventures and choices you've made. Btw, here is a really short ending. * * * You try to get up, but you can't. The puddle of blood around you is getting bigger. You know what it means, but you refuse to believe it. It can't end like this. You try to say something, but almost choke on the blood and pass out. Later on the slaves pick up your body and drag it to the dump. You're still alive when they throw your body into a large pile of rotting corpses and waste - your final resting place. The smell is nauseating. You start praying for a merciful death, but the gods are busy and you have to wait for hours until your wish is granted. * * * Then Oscar decided to attach each paragraph to a screen. Work in progress, of course. Suggestions in regard to the font and presentation are welcome. [attachment deleted to save space] Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 18, 2009, 07:28:50 pm I'm not sure you have enough instances of the word "fuck" in there. Throw in a few more for good measure.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Sodomy on August 18, 2009, 07:36:13 pm "It better be sincere" should be "It had better be sincere".
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Morbus on August 18, 2009, 07:40:26 pm The death final is cheesy and cliché, but it's so fucking well written it embraces you in its whole meaning. God damn it, I wish I could write like that.
Well, I actually can, but only in Portuguese. Still... :3 Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: galsiah on August 18, 2009, 09:37:15 pm "It better be sincere" should be "It had better be sincere". I don't know that grammatical exactitude is the way forward, given that the next words are "The fucker...". I don't think the 'had' fits with a character who has the personality / is in the mood to start his next thought with "The fucker".Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Wrath of Dagon on August 18, 2009, 10:31:46 pm I'm not sure you have enough instances of the word "fuck" in there. Throw in a few more for good measure. That's what I was thinking too.Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Jeff Graw on August 18, 2009, 11:55:46 pm Sooo... you actually get to choose which offer to accept, right? There are breaks in the storytelling mode where you can make choices?
Pretty sure what the answer will be, but I just want to make sure. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Dicksmoker on August 18, 2009, 11:55:59 pm Yeah the profanity feels a little out of place for that type of era. Feels too modern. I think "fuck" should mostly be used in regards to sex and not much else. That would feel more realistic. So having it as a verb is good, and maybe occasionally as an adjective, but as an adverb and noun it's really quite jarring.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Oscar on August 19, 2009, 12:17:00 am Sooo... you actually get to choose which offer to accept, right? There are breaks in the storytelling mode where you can make choices? Pretty sure what the answer will be, but I just want to make sure. Yes. The ending is a recapitulation of your choices and the consequences after them. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: MaximB on August 19, 2009, 02:07:12 am It's a Combat Demo we are talking about, right ?
The one in which you fight in the arena....? What choices will you have ? could you choose who to fight with ? will there actually be "quests" ? Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 19, 2009, 03:03:23 am Quote I'm not sure you have enough instances of the word "fuck" in there. Throw in a few more for good measure. I've mentioned that I find the swearing anachronistic, but Vince likes it, so...*shrug* Quote "It better be sincere" should be "It had better be sincere". Fits the character. "Street tough" style of speech. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 19, 2009, 03:33:02 am Forget anachronisms. I'm talking about poor writing. I feel that the word "fuck" is like salt: the right amount can bring out the flavor of pretty much anything, but use too much and it's all ruined. Overusing the word causes it to lose its impact, and it starts to just look silly.
Call the arena master a "bastard," get rid of the two "fuckings" in the praetorian guard line, and it still gets the point across. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: luckyb0y on August 19, 2009, 04:31:19 am I also dislike the excessive profanity. It sounds like your character is either a ghetto thug or an insecure teenager throwing expletives left and right to make himself look tough. I'm not advocating going all PC and bowdlerising your game, but as Gregorus Prime said it works great if used sparingly and not at all if you overdo it. That is definitely overdone.
Ditch the filter. It looks dreadful. You can tell in an instant it's a photoshop filter and many people probably recognize which one. Either change it to slight blur, b&w/sepia or reduce the amount so it's not so obvious. I'm not sure if it actually improves anything. It would look much better without it. Nevermind what people say. You have a nice looking game there. Show it off. Use camera angles and movement not possible in game, additional lighting etc. Well, maybe save that for the full game or we'll never see the demo. Edit: Maybe try some more "Roman" looking font. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 19, 2009, 04:38:16 am Quote I also dislike the excessive profanity. It sounds like your character is either a ghetto thug or an insecure teenager throwing expletives left and right to make himself look tough. I'm not advocating going all PC and bowdlerising your game, but as Gregorus Prime said it works great if used sparingly and not at all if you overdo it. That is definitely overdone. I agree, though Vince favours that type of Godfather style of gangster dialogue. Quote Ditch the filter. It looks dreadful. You can tell in an instant it's a photoshop filter and many people probably recognize which one. Either change it to slight blur, b&w/sepia or reduce the amount so it's not so obvious. I'm not sure if it actually improves anything. It would look much better without it. Nevermind what people say. You have a nice looking game there. Show it off. Use camera angles and movement not possible in game, additional lighting etc. Well, maybe save that for the full game or we'll never see the demo. Seconded. I've seen this in both AoD and Cyclopean, please, don't use this filter guys. It is very obviously a photoshop filter and a cheap/tacky one at that. b&w/sepia or slight blur/texture overlay is a better direction. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: luckyb0y on August 19, 2009, 04:44:31 am Quote I also dislike the excessive profanity. It sounds like your character is either a ghetto thug or an insecure teenager throwing expletives left and right to make himself look tough. I'm not advocating going all PC and bowdlerising your game, but as Gregorus Prime said it works great if used sparingly and not at all if you overdo it. That is definitely overdone. I agree, though Vince favours that type of Godfather style of gangster dialogue. It's fine if you have a couple characters talking like that. Everyone knows a bloke that uses four-letter words as punctuation. If it pops up in every other sentence in all dialogues, it becomes a caricature. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: GhanBuriGhan on August 19, 2009, 04:55:35 am Add my vote to the ones that find it a bit overdone on the "fuck-count". Otherwise this is very nice, and a good way to end the demo (or game). I like the idea to show illustrative screens. Like Gareth I would prefer something like a sepia filter, maybe a paper or canvas effect.
Can we see a second one, to see how the choices in the game affect the ending? Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 19, 2009, 05:02:32 am Quote Otherwise this is very nice, and a good way to end the demo (or game). It is. I've seen the branches and it's good stuff, gives you a nice taste of AoD branching. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 19, 2009, 05:04:20 am It's fine if you have a couple characters talking like that. Everyone knows a bloke that uses four-letter words as punctuation. If it pops up in every other sentence in all dialogues, it becomes a caricature. Yes, well this is supposed to be a narrator of sorts. It's okay for it to convey an attitude, but it should be mostly neutral and matter-of-fact. As for the filter: Add some light bloom, throw down a layer of light brown with maybe 20-30% opacity.... (http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/5784/dappergentlemannextgen.jpg) BOOM. Instant Next-Gen™ filter. :P Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 19, 2009, 05:13:59 am Quote Yes, well this is supposed to be a narrator of sorts. Actually, it's from the viewpoint of the character, not a global, neutral narrator. So you're reading his thoughts and whatnot as he thinks them. The style of the writing reflects the character's personality and responses to events/dialogue. If I was a proper writer I'd give you the proper terminology, call it first person/present tense. Quote The Arena Master greets you with a wide smile. It better be sincere. The fucker made a fortune on you. "I have received two job offers for you." Charging for his services, no doubt. "Lord Antidas would like to offer you Dellar's job. You'll be his right hand man, in charge of mercenaries and 'special projects', undoubtedly involving killing Gaelius' people. Teron is a shithole, of course, but the post is important. " You consider this prospect as he continues. "Lord Gaelius wants you to join his praetorian guards. It’s a modest position, but House Aurelian is the most powerful House. The future belongs to them, so it might be unwise to bet on the underdog. " A praetorian guard? You, the Champion of the fucking Arena? He's gotta be fucking kidding. It's almost an insult. What did one of the dead Emperors say? "I'd rather be first in command of a village than second in the capital city." Teron it is then. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 19, 2009, 05:26:35 am Quote Yes, well this is supposed to be a narrator of sorts. Actually, it's from the viewpoint of the character, not a global, neutral narrator. So you're reading his thoughts and whatnot as he thinks them. The style of the writing reflects the character's personality and responses to events/dialogue. If I was a proper writer I'd give you the proper terminology, call it first person/present tense. Quote The Arena Master greets you with a wide smile. It better be sincere. The fucker made a fortune on you. "I have received two job offers for you." Charging for his services, no doubt. "Lord Antidas would like to offer you Dellar's job. You'll be his right hand man, in charge of mercenaries and 'special projects', undoubtedly involving killing Gaelius' people. Teron is a shithole, of course, but the post is important. " You consider this prospect as he continues. "Lord Gaelius wants you to join his praetorian guards. It’s a modest position, but House Aurelian is the most powerful House. The future belongs to them, so it might be unwise to bet on the underdog. " A praetorian guard? You, the Champion of the fucking Arena? He's gotta be fucking kidding. It's almost an insult. What did one of the dead Emperors say? "I'd rather be first in command of a village than second in the capital city." Teron it is then. That's second person, actually. "The Arena Master greets you with a wide smile. You consider this prospect as he continues." It's not you that's talking, you're being talked to. I was wrong about it being neutral, I suppose, but this pushes aside the root of the matter: Gratuitous use of the word "fuck" looks stupid. That's all the reason Vince needs to change it. And once again, I think recruiting a volunteer editor should at least be considered as far as the game script is concerned. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 19, 2009, 05:52:56 am Quote Yes, well this is supposed to be a narrator of sorts. Actually, it's from the viewpoint of the character, not a global, neutral narrator. So you're reading his thoughts and whatnot as he thinks them. The style of the writing reflects the character's personality and responses to events/dialogue. If I was a proper writer I'd give you the proper terminology, call it first person/present tense. Quote The Arena Master greets you with a wide smile. It better be sincere. The fucker made a fortune on you. "I have received two job offers for you." Charging for his services, no doubt. "Lord Antidas would like to offer you Dellar's job. You'll be his right hand man, in charge of mercenaries and 'special projects', undoubtedly involving killing Gaelius' people. Teron is a shithole, of course, but the post is important. " You consider this prospect as he continues. "Lord Gaelius wants you to join his praetorian guards. It’s a modest position, but House Aurelian is the most powerful House. The future belongs to them, so it might be unwise to bet on the underdog. " A praetorian guard? You, the Champion of the fucking Arena? He's gotta be fucking kidding. It's almost an insult. What did one of the dead Emperors say? "I'd rather be first in command of a village than second in the capital city." Teron it is then. That's second person, actually. "The Arena Master greets you with a wide smile. You consider this prospect as he continues." It's not you that's talking, you're being talked to. I was wrong about it being neutral, I suppose, but this pushes aside the root of the matter: Gratuitous use of the word "fuck" looks stupid. That's all the reason Vince needs to change it. And once again, I think recruiting a volunteer editor should at least be considered as far as the game script is concerned. Right, right, second person, or it would be "The arena master greets me with a smile". Thanks. "Gratuitous use of the word "fuck" looks stupid." I also find it jarring, but Vince likes it and it's his game, so... That writer guy from "The Steel Remains" seems to think it's a neat trick, so maybe it's just a matter of perspective. Even if you want a lot of swearing, I'd use either descriptive terms like "swine / whoreson" or make up swear words/slang, ala "taffer" from Thief and "Frak" from BSG. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Zaij on August 19, 2009, 06:00:56 am Yeah, usage of 'fuck' should be rare unless the character is a prolific swearer, otherwise it just cheapens the effect.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Tuomas on August 19, 2009, 06:24:00 am Joe Abercrombie's thoughts on swearing in fantasy reflect my own:
http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2007/09/zounds-swearing-in-fantasy.html "To make up a word simply to act as a substitute for a perfectly good English word seems to me almost cowardly, and as a reader I would find it extremely irritating. After all, if frel or whatever is supposed to mean F**K, why not just call a spade a spade? And if it doesn't mean F**K, then what the f**k is it supposed to mean? I can see the point if it means a TV show can air before the watershed, but I can't for the life of me see the point in an adult work of fiction." Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 19, 2009, 07:05:13 am Quote To make up a word simply to act as a substitute for a perfectly good English word seems to me almost cowardly It's not that it's cowardly, that the writer is afraid of swearing. It's that swear words seem, due to common perception, to be out of place, jarring. I find it anachronistic. It may simply be one of those mindsets created by popular media, but I'd find the words "fuck" and "shit" out of place in any setting meant to be >100 years or so in the past. I don't expect them in Victorian works, I don't expect them in the renaissance, and I certainly don't expect them in medieval or antiquity settings, or any fantasy world analogous to those time periods. Saying "it's a fantasy world, whatever" doesn't work for me, it's Roman inspired, I expect language that reflects that just as the buildings and equipment does. Language mutates rapidly. I do not expect speech patterns from 2000+ years ago to sound similar to what I'd hear in a modern bar, or when talking with friends. It doesn't have to be "ye olde english", but too many modern terms and expressions strains my suspension of disbelief. A made-up term sounds less jarring because there isn't an existing framework around it built up in the reader's mind. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Anonxeuix on August 19, 2009, 07:55:36 am It may simply be one of those mindsets created by popular media, but I'd find the words "fuck" and "shit" out of place in any setting meant to be >100 years or so in the past. For some reason I'm in the same boat as you, but I'm not sure whether or not these words were actually used in those times. If so, there's nothing wrong with them in this setting. Though then again it's Vince's call whether or not to use them it he feels they actually do fit his setting. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 19, 2009, 08:03:33 am Quote For some reason I'm in the same boat as you, but I'm not sure whether or not these words were actually used in those times. If so, there's nothing wrong with them in this setting. Actually, it'd still be a problem regardless. The reason is that, for writing, the perception is the thing. You have to work with the mindset of your reader to create your "illusion". What the reality was is actually not particularly relevant, it's what people expect to see/hear/read when they deal with a particular time period. You can occasionally play with such expectations for effect, if you're a skilled writer who knows exactly how far they can take it without breaking credulity, but few have that skill, and it would only work in moderation anyway. A skilled writer understands that how his audience is going to interpret his words is highly important, and that that interpretation is based on the mental constructs of the audience themselves, the times they live in, the situation in the world around them. You've got to know how people's minds work. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 08:32:16 am About swearing in dialogues...
Complaint #1 - "fuck" and "fucker" are too modern and probably wasn't used in an ancient Rome-like setting. No shit. For the record, they didn't speak modern English either, but nobody seems to complain about it. Do you really think that the original Vulgar Latin swearing would fit the modern English better? Besides, "fuck" was used quite often in Rome (the HBO show) and it's not like it ruined the immersion. Complaint #2: "Yeah the profanity feels a little out of place for that type of era." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catullus_16 The following adaptation attempts to convey the attitude of this poem: I'm gonna fuck you guys up the ass and shove my cock down your throats, yes, you, Aurelius--you fucking cocksucker--and you too, Furius, you faggot! Just because my verses are tender doesn't mean that I've gone all soft. Sure, a poet should focus on writing poetry and not on sex; but does that mean they can't write about sex? If a poem is in good taste, well-written and erotic, it can give massive boners to hairy old men, not just to horny teenagers. You think I'm a sissy just because I write about thousands of kisses? I'm gonna fuck you guys up the ass and shove my cock down your throats! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_profanity Complaint #3: the lady doth swear too much - excessive profanity alert! The word "fuck" is used 3 times. Hardly excessive. I did much better in some reviews: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=159 Concern: Do all characters swear? No. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: willcodejavaforfood on August 19, 2009, 08:40:36 am I love it when people quickly take critisism onboard :)
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 08:42:57 am Can we see a second one, to see how the choices in the game affect the ending? Second one what? Ending? Sure. Anything for you, Ghan.The window thing has a Dex check, btw: "You have two options: fight six veteran soldiers or escape through the window. Neither option fits into your definition of a "good idea", but the window offers better odds. Unfortunately, it seems like you spent all your luck in the arena. You lose your footing and fall, shattering your knee; the pain forcing the breath from your lungs. Your fighting days are certainly over, but you don't have to live with your disability for long, the guards soon find you and put an end to both the pain and your life." Here is something different: * * * The arena champion stumbles backwards, sword falling from his hands as he tries to stop the blood gushing from his wound. His eyes lose focus and he falls slowly to the sand. You are the champion now. Twenty people who fought against you paid for your new title with their lives. Not bad, all things considered. Some people kill a lot more and end up with a lot less. The Arena Master greets you with a wide smile. It better be sincere. The fucker made a fortune on you. "I have received two job offers for you." Charging for his services, no doubt. "Lord Antidas would like to offer you Dellar's job. You'll be his right hand man, in charge of mercenaries and 'special projects', undoubtedly involving killing Gaelius' people. Teron is a shithole, of course, but the post is important. " You consider this prospect as he continues. "Lord Gaelius wants you to join his praetorian guards. It’s a modest position, but House Aurelian is the most powerful House. The future belongs to them, so it might be unwise to bet on the underdog, but the decision is yours, of course. " You always bet on the winner, so it’s an easy choice. Sure, Gaelius could have shown more respect to the new Champion of the Arena, but you don't mind waiting for an opportunity to prove yourself. Aint nowhere to go but up now. You return to the inn, order a round of drinks just to get people off your back, and go upstairs. Before you have a chance to take off your armor, the Imperial Guards open the door with a kick. Right, you killed Carbo, their captain. You almost forgot, but they sure didn't. Someone else would have seen a threat here, but you see an opportunity. You thank the fate for sending you six well trained fighters and start talking. Poor bastards don't have a chance. You play them like a musical instrument, creating different emotions and leading them toward the conclusion you present as obvious. When you leave the inn, you have a gang of eager killers at your disposal. You think you'll like it here in Maadoran. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 08:43:14 am Sooo... you actually get to choose which offer to accept, right? There are breaks in the storytelling mode where you can make choices? Yes. In normal dialogues, not storytelling mode. The storytelling mode simply sums up what you did.Forget anachronisms. I'm talking about poor writing. ::)Joe Abercrombie's thoughts on swearing in fantasy reflect my own: My sentiments exactly.http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2007/09/zounds-swearing-in-fantasy.html "To make up a word simply to act as a substitute for a perfectly good English word seems to me almost cowardly, and as a reader I would find it extremely irritating. After all, if frel or whatever is supposed to mean F**K, why not just call a spade a spade? And if it doesn't mean F**K, then what the f**k is it supposed to mean? I can see the point if it means a TV show can air before the watershed, but I can't for the life of me see the point in an adult work of fiction." Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: luckyb0y on August 19, 2009, 08:45:28 am 1. Agree. If the style of dialogues is modern I don't see a reason to insert made up or ancient-sounding swear words.
2. Ditto. While this kind of language was heard most in the gutters it certainly was present in the palaces and the like. 3. The problem is not that NPCs swear too much. After all it's a part of their character. I know it's a dark and gritty setting, but being civil doesn't equal being goody two-shoes. I dislike such behaviour and find the PC an insufferable twat. That could seriously hamper the enjoyment of the game. Dialogue options at least give you a choice so you can decide if your character would say something or not. Here you don't give a choice and what's more you impose certain attitude on the PC. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 08:50:30 am I love it when people quickly take critisism onboard :) I don't think that anyone can claim that we dismiss criticism. We've always listened to the feedback, no matter how critical and negative, and the current state of the game is a "living" proof of that. However, it doesn't mean that every time someone says "I don't like it!", we'll accept it as the gospel's truth and start changing things immediately. We think before we do something. If we did something, there is some logic, some reasoning behind it. Presenting this logic and reasoning isn't being defensive or close-minded. It's called initiating a dialogue. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 19, 2009, 08:53:33 am Quote No shit. For the record, they didn't speak modern English either, but nobody seems to complain about it. Do you really think that the original Vulgar Latin swearing would fit the modern English better? That doesn't really make a difference, certain words/phrases/terms stand out as more modern/belonging only to a specific time period than others. "The" or "tree" doesn't have the same sense of historical placement as "milord", "guvnor", "kingpin", "psychoanalysis" or "radioactive isotope", for example. You do agree you couldn't have one of the characters say "this criminal is pschologically unhinged, probably due to repressed childhood trauma or abuse" and it fit in your quasi-roman setting, right? Whereas you could say "he was beaten as a boy and it made him mad as a rabid dog". Two ways of saying things, both English. One sounds modern, the other not. Some words/expressions sound "Victorian". Some sound "Medieval". Some sound "Arabian". Some sound "Modern". Modern swear words sound modern to most people. All these words are English, of course, but the point is that they bring with them a context which doesn't quite fit the time period, in my and a lot of people's opinions. Quote Besides, "fuck" was used quite often in Rome (the HBO show) and it's not like it ruined the immersion. Haven't watched it. Probably would have stood out to me. I've yet to encounter a non-modern period piece where it doesn't. Quote Complaint #2: "Yeah the profanity feels a little out of place for that type of era." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catullus_16 The following adaptation attempts to convey the attitude of this poem: I'm gonna fuck you guys up the ass and shove my cock down your throats, yes, you, Aurelius--you fucking cocksucker--and you too, Furius, you faggot! Just because my verses are tender doesn't mean that I've gone all soft. Sure, a poet should focus on writing poetry and not on sex; but does that mean they can't write about sex? If a poem is in good taste, well-written and erotic, it can give massive boners to hairy old men, not just to horny teenagers. You think I'm a sissy just because I write about thousands of kisses? I'm gonna fuck you guys up the ass and shove my cock down your throats! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_profanity Complaint #3: the lady doth swear too much - excessive profanity alert! I don't think the complain was the quantity of profanity so much as the modern swear words. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 09:01:04 am 3. The problem is not that NPCs swear too much. After all it's a part of their character. I know it's a dark and gritty setting, but being civil doesn't equal being goody two-shoes. I dislike such behaviour and find the PC an insufferable twat. That could seriously hamper the enjoyment of the game. Dialogue options at least give you a choice so you can decide if your character would say something or not. Here you don't give a choice and what's more you impose certain attitude on the PC. That's a fair point. Overall, as you probably noticed, I kept PC responses very neutral. However, in some cases, some responses must have a certain attitude. In this particular case, six imperial guards just barged into your room. What are your options? To remain civil and kindly ask them to leave? Point out that killing people is not nice? Haven't watched it. Probably would have stood out to me. I've yet to encounter a non-modern period piece where it doesn't. It's fucking awesome. You MUST watch it asap. Seriously.Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: luckyb0y on August 19, 2009, 09:17:11 am I was mostly refering to these:
A praetorian guard? You, the Champion of the fucking Arena? He's gotta be fucking kidding. It's almost an insult. What did one of the dead Emperors say? "I'd rather be first in command of a village than second in the capital city." Teron it is then. The fucker made a fortune on you. You tell the guards you work for Gaelius and add "fuck off" for a good measure. These are hardly neutral. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 09:22:47 am That's teh storytelling mode. Artistic license and all that. Anyway, that's why I said that we are experimenting and posted the sample ending for discussion purposes.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Wrath of Dagon on August 19, 2009, 09:23:15 am It's not really the swearing, it's that it needs to be more diversified. Gareth made some good suggestions on what to call the arena master. The only one I would keep is the **** off to the guards.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Sleet on August 19, 2009, 09:35:54 am Personally I don't swear much vocally or in my writing/posting.
The synopsis created for the ending for the winner works well for me. The champion thinks that way (using "fuck" and its derivatives) and talks that way. I will just not be able to read the exact text to my son while we play. :) As well, I found the swearing in the HBO "Rome" to fit quite well. as Vince said, if you have not seen it, sacrilege! And Joe's take? totally agree. An awesome writer by the way. Just finishing up Last Argument of Kings. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 09:38:54 am What a great trilogy. One of the best I've read in the last 10 years.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: micks on August 19, 2009, 10:17:33 am Using modern English in place of a much older language is a simple and logical substitution which I have no problem accepting, even if it means there are words and phrases that may sound anachronistic (as they stem from modern contexts and metaphors), if they do not refer directly to things that simply do not exist in the game's world.
You can use "kingpin" regardless of how the modern word originated, because it serves to describe social position for which the hypothetical older language would have its own expression originating from metaphors that we would find difficult to comprehend if translated literally. I agree that using words like "Ethernet" or "psychonalysis" wouldn't make sense, but that's not what Vince does, either. On the other hand, I find various fake attempts at Middle/Early Modern English elements mixed into modern language, as found in fantasy computer games, much more jarring. They are often grammatically nonsensical and filled of all sorts of anachronisms (possibly without realising - the Ultima and Thief series are two good examples). As for the expletives, I'd probably take one out of the "...fucking Arena? He's gotta be fucking kidding." sequence. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: suibhne on August 19, 2009, 10:45:23 am The profanity itself doesn't bother me. What frustrates me is that I'd be unlikely to ever play such a self-centered/street-tough jackass of a character in any game - I just can't identify with that. You run a big risk by determining and including so much of the PC's personality; if it doesn't match with the player's own expectation, it can really undermine the player's sense of agency and can weaken the RPG-ness of the game.
I'm also concerned that the checks won't be apparent. I didn't perceive that there were any checks at all when I read the first story; I only understood the structure when I reviewed the others. Without any clear tie to the player's character build and choices, these feel a bit puzzling - like a purely intellectual exercise with no direct connection to the game as such. Can you make the skill/attribute/whatever checks a lot clearer in the text? Honestly, I'm not sure it will be possible to do without clearly referencing the game mechanics; simply saying something like "Your dexterity isn't equal to the task" sounds awkward and gamey but still doesn't adequately reference the underlying game mechanics. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 10:59:40 am I think you guys missed the point here. You'll see proper dialogue screens and all available options. Then after the demo is completed, you'll see this ending summarizing what you did. The story isn't interactive, it's a summary.
http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1060961553&postcount=35 Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Imbecile on August 19, 2009, 11:02:28 am Personally I don't have an issue with the quantity of swearing or style of the language. Its in keeping with the rest (and as mentioned the f'ing and blinding from Joe Abercrombies characters seemed perfectly natural)
I can see that some might not like the way the main character chooses to talk sometimes. This is a downside in having no "false" options, that simply change the manner of delivery but lead to the same result. Is roleplaying just in the choices, or is also in the delivery?* *though if I had to choose one or the other I would favour choices. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 11:05:33 am In the choices.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Benedict on August 19, 2009, 11:18:48 am Yeah the profanity feels a little out of place for that type of era. Feels too modern. I think "fuck" should mostly be used in regards to sex and not much else. That would feel more realistic. So having it as a verb is good, and maybe occasionally as an adjective, but as an adverb and noun it's really quite jarring. The Romans just had wussy words like Fututio and Irrumatio though, they don't have the same ring at all. I'm happy with current swearwords myself, anything else seems forced. All the way through Battlestar Galactica I was yelling (pointlessly) at them to just say Fuck rather than all this stupid Frack nonsense. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: jeansberg on August 19, 2009, 12:03:51 pm I have no problems with the words like 'fuck' being used, and I don't think it clashes with the setting.
The word (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck) is not what I would call modern, either. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Saerden on August 19, 2009, 12:08:41 pm I strongly suggest to release an alpha without all the frills. I would even go so far and replace existing content with [placeholder] to get the idea across that its about tweaking the combat gameplay. If it is too polished, people will go berzerk over details.
Great idea for a demo/beta by the way. Anyway, How would you have written the endings (for the main game), if not in this way? "Flavor" vs player agency is a typical problem. Since you have that style in most dialogs anyway, you are already commited. Its works well, so no need to change it. The rest is a typical translation argument. If you use Catullus' original work in his native language, people of today will think of dusty scrolls, ancient wisdom and elderly scholars with glasses. Since the tone is not documentary or emo but biting sarcasm, and since your characters are thugs first, not-romans second, "fuck", "therapy", "headline" fit well enough. What is more important is that you know how to write "gangster speak" well. Style, grammer: Over the years, 90% of the time, the suggestions were "correct" but your original still had better flow and atmosphere. Get a native speaker to look for unintentional lulz and other stupid stuff that can happen in large amounts of text (like dropping the 'r' out of Gray Code). Dont let him change anything on his own. Obviously not a native speaker, so that may explain the different reaction. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 12:15:15 pm I strongly suggest to release an alpha without all the frills. It will kill us. Yes, people will bitch about everything they don't like or have doubts about, but they will crucify us for an alpha with placeholders.Quote Style, grammer: Over the years, 90% of the time, the suggestions were "correct" but your original still had better flow and atmosphere. Thanks.Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: suibhne on August 19, 2009, 12:41:57 pm Ah, now I see. I like the idea of a summary. But it runs even more risk of (retroactively) disempowering the player, because it characterizes the PC's personality/tone/intent long after the player has already done so, in his head. What are your thoughts on this risk?
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Fryjar on August 19, 2009, 12:50:51 pm I can't say that I'm too fond of the excessive swearing in its current form either, which has several reasons:
1. I don't mind when certain phrases can be anachronistic at times, especially if they fit your style. But this doesn't mean that you should pay no attention to this issue altogether, because if you overdo it, you can easily destroy the mood that the setting creates. Most of the instances where you swear would work perfectly well, if you either avoided swearing alltogether, or just used other swear words, without significantly altering the overall tone of the narrative. 2. As was mentioned in previous posts, the main problem is not so much that people didn't speak this way in the past, but people associate with this style of speaking automatically the end of the 20./beginning of 21. century. You can avoid these issues, if you use more diverse/other swear words. Pretty much everything else would work better here. 3. You are forcing players into a certain role, that they might not have had in mind when playing the character, if you write in this style. While I approve of writing where the character of the speaker shines through, when it comes to the PC it should be at least a bit more neutral than it is right now. 4. You are needlessly inviting people to dismiss your writing if you keep this style. I think that aside from the swearing the writing is pretty good, but game journalists will be quickly to point out this "flaw" as it is easy to notice, whereas being able to make elaborate judgment of the overall quality of writing may take a while. Whether these reviewers are willing to pay that much attention remains to be seen. While the overall reception of AoD in magazines/ mainstream rpg sites probably doesn't concern you that much, potential criticism of the writing can in this case do more harm than say the graphics. Many cRpg players that might be interested in AoD but have not heard about it before, could be lost, when they read in a review that the writing is only mediocre, while they probably wouldn't care about extensive criticism of the visuals. That being said, I would also recommend hiring an editor before release. Your writing is good but can be at times a little bit rough around the edges. Nearly all text tidbits of AoD you posted so far were generally approved but also partly criticized for a few phrases that are a bit off. Hiring an editor here that doesn't want to change your style but simply tries to correct grammatical errors/ awkward word choices could mean the difference between good and excellent writing in the end. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 01:01:29 pm Ah, now I see. I like the idea of a summary. But it runs even more risk of (retroactively) disempowering the player, because it characterizes the PC's personality/tone/intent long after the player has already done so, in his head. What are your thoughts on this risk? It's an issue. That's why I posted it to get some feedback. It's easy to keep the PC tone neutral in the game. In a story, no matter how short, it's much harder as removing personality will remove all flavor, leaving you with a very dry text. We already have 12 variants, so adding different flavors will be too much. I do realize that the character in the story can be quite an opposite of someone's character. Thoughts? 2. As was mentioned in previous posts, the main problem is not so much that people didn't speak this way in the past, but people associate with this style of speaking automatically the end of the 20./beginning of 21. century. Which is incorrect:Word Origin & History Fuck a difficult word to trace, in part because it was taboo to the editors of the original OED when the "F" volume was compiled, 1893-97. Written form only attested from early 16c. OED 2nd edition cites 1503, in the form fukkit; earliest appearance of current spelling is 1535 -- "Bischops ... may fuck thair fill and be vnmaryit" [Sir David Lyndesay, "Ane Satyre of the Thrie Estaits"], but presumably it is a much more ancient word than that, simply one that wasn't likely to be written in the kind of texts that have survived from O.E. and M.E. Buck cites proper name John le Fucker from 1278.... Should we avoid a word just because people incorrectly assume that it's a 20th century word? Quote That being said, I would also recommend hiring an editor before release. Your writing is good but can be at times a little bit rough around the edges. Wouldn't work.Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 19, 2009, 01:22:47 pm Quote Should we avoid a word just because people incorrectly assume that it's a 20th century word? Yes. The cowboy/western genre is built around what people watched on TV, fabricated in hollywood. The reality probably wasn't like that, but people bring certain expectations to the table if you create a "western RPG". This is the point I was making. It actually doesn't matter what the truth of the matter was, as a storyteller you need to work with the viewpoint of your readers. Who are, one and all, modern human beings. Not a single one of us lived in the 1500s. Our mental framework for "what sounds appropriate" for a timeperiod is based on mass media, novels, movies and TV. Not the reality of the actual time period. And out mental framework for "what sounds appropriate" for the modern era is the phrases and words we here around us in everyday conversation, talking to our fellow modern human beings. Basically, if your psuedo-romans sound just like your friends chatting in a bar or around your pool, they just sound fucking wrong. Because part of your mind knows that people in past eras wouldn't sound like modern people, yet these characters sound just like modern people, so something is off!!! Changing their language patterns to be nearly modern, but not quite, avoids this familiarity. Which is why words like "Taffer!" from Thief worked better than "motherfucker!" would have. You can't go "but what about reality!". This is storytelling. It's like being a stage magician, but with words. It's all about creating the illusion. Your choice of words and terms is as relevant to creating this fragile illusion as what you're actually talking about. And, just like a stage magician, you work with what your audience expects to see. The truth doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is how convincing your illusion is to your audience. And illusions are built by manipulating perceptions, expectations. It's going to be an issue when it comes to reviews. Some people will accept it or look past it because they like the game (I look past it), but it will jar many or cause them to unnecessarily dismiss you out of hand. Words like "whoreson" work just as well and avoid this issue. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 01:24:09 pm You are dead to me, Gareth. Dead.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Lamoot on August 19, 2009, 01:25:34 pm Quote Should we avoid a word just because people incorrectly assume that it's a 20th century word? It's not that they assume, it's that they feel it's a 20th century word and will see it as such. You can provide them with as many arguments as you wish, but people don't have a direct control over how they feel about something and you can't out-argument the general perception of the "fuck" word created by the film, television, music and a too large part of the internet. "fuck" does sound out of place, even it's a direct English translation from what the Romans used. The problem is that "fuck" has so many modern connotations that it breaks the coherence of the game world you're trying to portrait, by introducing an alien element. Breaks immershun, if you will. In writing and fiction "fuck" for me usually means a lazyman's way to portrait a badass character. You're not a lazy man Vince. However, this is a badass character? http://i700.photobucket.com/albums/ww8/gtg633w/fallout3_lp/13_Daddy/512.jpg Regarding the screenshots, the photoshop filter is too obvious / cheap and if nothing else, a bare screenshot is still better. But you also have cool concept art, would anything from there fit into ending screens? Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 01:34:56 pm In writing and fiction "fuck" for me usually means a lazyman's way to portrait a badass character. You're not a lazy man Vince. However, this is a badass character? Not necessarily. I swear a lot and the last thing I want is to look badass when I'm talking to clients. It does fit my conversation style though.Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Silellak on August 19, 2009, 01:37:26 pm I think Vince is right; to some extent it's hard to avoid adding a character's personality to dialog without making the text completely dry.
I understand it can certainly be frustrating to have a character type "forced" on the PC, and there are certainly things that can be done to limit this issue. However, even the highly-respected Fallout is guilty of the same thing - many dialog choices force you into a certain characterization of the PC. I'm having trouble finding a specific screenshot example, but it was something I definitely noticed when I re-played Fallout earlier this year. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: luckyb0y on August 19, 2009, 02:11:13 pm If something happens to the character it's ok to convey associated emotions. If you're subtle about it then player subjective point of view will do the rest. If I'm playing an honest, square character then I can overlook occasional mild swearing, but seeing my character calling an NPC a fucking wanker will totally break the immersion (sorry). On the other hand if I'm playing rough and tough thug then said line can be complemented by an off screen expletive. I will feel my character is badass anyway. Convey emotions, but keep it subtle. Leave it up to the player to take it to the extremes.
I don't agree with Gareth about fulfilling audience expectations, but he's onto something there. It's obvious people of different cultures speak in a different way. I think it's good to keep that in mind writing dialogue. That doesn't mean that you have to conform to established image. Fantasy dialogue doesn't have to sound like a drunken, half-retarded ren-faire banter, but it should be quite different from the way 21st century western people speak. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Imbecile on August 19, 2009, 02:46:39 pm Pandering to what most people think or expect seems to be the opposite of what AOD is aiming to do.
Most people want real time ARPGs or MMOs. AOD is not one of these because (as far as I can tell) the aim is not to give the audience what they want, but what is good (or correct). Even if they turn their noses up at it. It seems to me that not using the word "fuck" because people incorrectly assume its a 20th century word, directly opposes AODs core principles. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: John Yossarian on August 19, 2009, 03:10:28 pm Pandering to what most people think or expect seems to be the opposite of what AOD is aiming to do. This. For example, watch most cop shows V. The Wire. Which one seems more "correct" about how police and police departments work? Or the projects?. Which one challenged preconceived notions the most? Most people want real time ARPGs or MMOs. AOD is not one of these because (as far as I can tell) the aim is not to give the audience what they want, but what is good (or correct). Even if they turn their noses up at it. It seems to me that not using the word "fuck" because people incorrectly assume its a 20th century word, directly opposes AODs core principles. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 19, 2009, 03:12:20 pm Roll your fucking eyes all you fucking want, Vince, I still fucking think that fucking saying "fuck" three fucking times in as many fucking sentences is fucking stupid. Change it the fuck up a fucking bit, for Christ's fucking sake. I'll take my Pulitzer now, if you please. :P
I see it like using a character's full name over and over again and refusing to resort to pronouns. Charlie likes soda because Charlie has a sweet tooth. Charlie's dentist says that Charlie shouldn't drink so much soda, but Charlie doesn't care and does so anyway. Charlie got cavities and then Charlie had to go back to the dentist and get a filling. The dentist told Charlie that Charlie should have listened to what the dentist said. Variety is the spice of life, Mr. Weller. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Anonxeuix on August 19, 2009, 03:17:34 pm Throw in 'cunt' there and it's perfect.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 19, 2009, 03:44:27 pm Quote I don't agree with Gareth about fulfilling audience expectations, but he's onto something there. You do not have to fulfill expectations, if you don't want to, but you can't work as if they don't exist nor you can ignore them without consequence. You need to understand what they are, how it will effect the impression your writing creates and whether that achieves the effect you are looking for. For example, this : Quote For example, watch most cop shows V. The Wire. Which one seems more "correct" about how police and police departments work? Or the projects?. Which one challenged preconceived notions the most? There are preconceived notions that cops, being the "good guys", are nice and good. Breaking those notions creates a sense of shock, of grittiness, because that type of language and behavior belongs to more thuggish individuals. It is done specificially with an awareness of what the impact will be by mixing those contrasts. Could you simply swap in anything there? No. Swap in 50's gangster lingo and you create something comical. If it's not your intention to be funny then you've fucked up. This is how it works with your romanesque dialogue. You're placing modern speech patterns in an antiquities setting. The impact it will have is to create a sense of time displacement for some people. Does that create an impression that you wish to create? Unless you're aiming for time travel I don't fucking think so. Quote Pandering to what most people think or expect seems to be the opposite of what AOD is aiming to do :facepalm: Damn Codexers. This isn't about "pandering to the masses", this is about understanding how the psychology of the written word works. It's like knowing the rules of rhythm and tempo in music, composition and anatomy in art. Understanding these principles allow you to be a better creator. This is not about "fighting the man". :lol: Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Imbecile on August 19, 2009, 03:56:11 pm Quote Pandering to what most people think or expect seems to be the opposite of what AOD is aiming to do :facepalm: Damn Codexers. This isn't about "pandering to the masses", this is about understanding how the psychology of the written word works. It's like knowing the rules of rhythm and tempo in music, composition and anatomy in art. Understanding these principles allow you to be a better creator. This is not about "fighting the man". :lol: Hey, dont judge me too hastily. ;) I loathe the snobbery that says everything that is popular is automatically bad. That isn't always the case. Regardless of the subjectivity of "rhythm, tempo, composition and anatomy", I think the bottom line is that this word is not a modern one. What I was trying to do (perhaps wrongly) was to second guess some of the direction behind AOD, which is to say no easter eggs, no "false choices" and turn-based (whether its unpopular or not). It seemed to me that using the word "fuck" was in line with these design decisions. Though personally, I dont give a fuck either way. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 19, 2009, 04:08:33 pm Quote Hey, dont judge me too hastily. Lol, I should have added a wink smiley to my last post, made it less harsh sounding. ;) Quote It seemed to me that using the word "fuck" was in line with these design decisions. I think it's because Vince likes Godfather movies :P Honestly, it's not a massive deal, one of the effects of having that many "fucks" in the text is that after a while you stop noticing, to a degree. But I think that it will affect some peoples opinions of the game, interfere with their ability to get immersed in the dialogue. Where you could easily have exactly the same amount of profanity, if you used some less modern sounding swear words, and create the exact same effect without any of that jarring. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Bradr on August 19, 2009, 04:29:36 pm But I think that it will affect some peoples opinions of the game, interfere with their ability to get immersed in the dialogue. Where you could easily have exactly the same amount of profanity, if you used some less modern sounding swear words, and create the exact same effect without any of that jarring. Yes. While the word "fuck' does have its place in dialogue, maybe even in AoD, too much of it is jarring - it seemed to leap our of the paragraph and disrupt the reading flow. I understand that the word isn't a new one, and it definitely paints a stripe for a certain type of character, but I feel a pre-determined narrative "voice" when reading rpg - or fantasy text for that matter. And words such as fuck are not in that style of writing. Call it conditioning on the part of many novels and games out there, but when I read those words, they break the game's character/theme/genre. Maybe I have the wrong impression of this game, but whether historically accurate or not, I just imagine a movie like Gladiator. I would suppose that the general mood and atmosphere of that movie would reflect a similar period and setting as in AoD. And I just can't see any of the characters saying fuck (did they???) in that movie - it would have broken the atmosphere that all of the costumes, music, and sets tried so hard to create. Although, its your game and your setting, so maybe my assumptions on the feel of the game were off base. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: quasimodo on August 19, 2009, 04:42:36 pm Well the word "fuck" is very versitile. Consider the following:
Fuck! Fucking fucker's fucked! Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 05:00:21 pm Roll your fucking eyes all you fucking want, Vince, I still fucking think that fucking saying "fuck" three fucking times in as many fucking sentences is fucking stupid. You equated using the word "fuck" to bad writing. What else do you expect me to say? Explain obvious things? List hundreds of great writers who aren't shy about using "fuck" and "fucking" in their books? Pandering to what most people think or expect seems to be the opposite of what AOD is aiming to do. This. For example, watch most cop shows V. The Wire. Which one seems more "correct" about how police and police departments work? Or the projects?. Which one challenged preconceived notions the most? Most people want real time ARPGs or MMOs. AOD is not one of these because (as far as I can tell) the aim is not to give the audience what they want, but what is good (or correct). Even if they turn their noses up at it. It seems to me that not using the word "fuck" because people incorrectly assume its a 20th century word, directly opposes AODs core principles. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 19, 2009, 05:16:37 pm You equated using the word "fuck" to bad writing. What else do you expect me to say? Explain obvious things? List hundreds of great writers who aren't shy about using "fuck" and "fucking" in their books? No, I equated overuse of the word with bad writing. Fuck is a good word. It's my favorite word, in fact, because it's so versatile. It's a noun, it's a verb, it even makes julienned fries! But if you use it too much, it really does give off the vibe of a fourteen year old trying to be edgy and shocking. In the lines about rejecting the offer to join the Praetorian guard, "fucking" really does not need to be there, as it doesn't add anything significant in terms of personality or impact. It might, if you hadn't called the arena master a fucker ten seconds prior and then used the word again immediately after using it. That's all I'm saying. I'm completely with you on the anachronism thing, though. As long as you aren't using words with specific modern etymologies, (e.g. making reference to Lord Gaelius "getting crunk" or "pwning bitches") it's fine. If we're going to be sticklers about this sort of thing, you might as well re-write all dialogue in the game in vulgar Latin. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Saerden on August 19, 2009, 05:41:02 pm In europe, people think of Romans as cowardly wusses flying through the air by the dozens (Asterix comics). Should you take that into account as well?
Your main goal is not to portray "ye olden times", but your vision of the world, and thats probably godfather with swords and mongols. I think all the negative responses are missing the fact that your main theme is not romans, but cynism, objectification of humans etc. Thats why gangster movies are probably better inspiration then life of brian. Modern lingo will make people think along the lines of gangsters, warlords, etc - and thats what your characters are at the core, no? The distance of time creates a totally different effect. A common, stupid thug using "whoreson" may sound alot less stupid and common for modern readers. Gareth has a point with using "slightly off" words, but its alot more difficult then just using the modern ones. A great author could maybe weave it in more subtly, but you dont want to be the Michelangelo of cRPGs after the first game, do you? That, and the quality of your prose seems to decline rapidly with increasing distance between two instances of "fuck"... Telling player what his character thinks: This is a problem, especially because the stories summarize choices you made during the game, long after you made them. You usually should avoid it, but then the ending slides will end up very generic. Typical design tradeoff. One possible solution would be to use a character as narrator, someone telling your story around a campfire. Then you can go overboard with swearing, speculation about motives, even mild lies. Basically how the world sees the character long after his time. In the short version, it would be one of the slaves (since people wont remember you after a week), in the first version, it could be a knight explaining a newcomer how you came here, similiar to how you read dellars background explaining to you who he is. Not sure it would fit. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: catmorbid on August 19, 2009, 05:54:36 pm I thought the endings were very nice, well written and gritty. Especially, since you actually had checks in between the actions to determine the outcome, even though it was mostly storytelling. And the swearing didn't bother me at all, so shut the fuck up whiners (yes, stfu because I wasn't bothered, revel on the marvel of my logic)! ;)
One thing I'm not sure about though, is your style of expressing the character's thoughts outside of dialogs, like the part "the fucker probably made a fortune on me bla bla...", which kind of sets a certain tone. What bothers is that the tone is already set, in the description I have no say in (if I'm right, if I'm not, then I misunderstood). I think it's ok the tell the player things that the character might think, but it's not ok to set the tone in those thoughts. Because that's my job, by choosing the dialog option. So if I want the character to expres his angry, bitter thoughts, then I choose a dialog option which does just that, otherwise I keep those thoughts to myself, and just act accordingly - if possible. I'm not sure if I communicated my thoughts here well enough, but please say so if I didn't :) Point is, I think writing in rpgs has certain limitations, because you have to make sure at all times, that the player has all the RP freedom that's humanely possible. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Anonxeuix on August 19, 2009, 06:28:33 pm Well the word "fuck" is very versitile. Consider the following: Fuck! Fucking fucker's fucked! Versatile indeed (http://www.break.com/index/englishf.html). I realised I have a link for every occasion. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 07:19:19 pm You equated using the word "fuck" to bad writing. What else do you expect me to say? Explain obvious things? List hundreds of great writers who aren't shy about using "fuck" and "fucking" in their books? No, I equated overuse of the word with bad writing. Fuck is a good word. It's my favorite word, in fact, because it's so versatile. It's a noun, it's a verb, it even makes julienned fries! But if you use it too much, it really does give off the vibe of a fourteen year old trying to be edgy and shocking. ... Quote In the lines about rejecting the offer to join the Praetorian guard, "fucking" really does not need to be there, as it doesn't add anything significant in terms of personality or impact. That's how people talk. That's how people react. Not edgy teenagers or badass dudes, but the working class, low education type folks. Met a guy once - he was a plant supervisor, worked his way up, 12 classes of education. Average conversation:- Hey Terry, how is everything? - Fuck! (honest to god - one reply to all conversation starters) - Are we on schedule? - What fucking schedule? Three fucking [racial slur] didn't show up. What's the fuck can I do? Fucking [racial slur]. - Did you call the temps? - Fucking temps... Waste of fucking time... Worse than fucking [racial slur]. - Terry, call the fucking temps fucking now and get this shit moving. In many cases "fuck" is that grease between words that gets them flowing smoother and splits a sentence into easy to understand chunks. Going back to the ending text, "champion of the fucking arena" is exactly how someone who's pissed off about his achievement not getting proper respect will react. Not "fucking champion", but "fucking arena", because the focus is on the arena. It was supposed to be something big, but turned out to be bullshit, like everything else in your life. Your worked hard to beat everyone, risked your life, killed twenty fucking people, and you are offered an entry-level job? A fucking joke, that's what it is. That's the typical reaction. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 07:33:21 pm Now, let's deal with the photoshop filters that everyone is so angry about. What's the big deal again? Yeah, I know that it's an easily recognizable 'shop filter, but it's not like Oscar found some picture online, used a filter, and passed it for art.
I think the effect is nice. Keep in mind that you've just finished the demo and seen all this stuff in-game. Showing you the screens again is kinda pointless. Running the screens through some filters is a good option, in my opinion. We have concept art, of course, but it doesn't fit these situations. So, either we use tweaked screens or we go with the plain text. Anyway, here is another screen, reflecting your previous suggestions. I don't think it looks better. If someone has a better idea, I'd love to see some mock-ups or good photoshop job turning a screen into something, well, interesting. Thanks in advance. [attachment deleted to save space] Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Anonxeuix on August 19, 2009, 07:35:29 pm Personally I like the "Ending New" filter better. Is that the film grain filter? Because it looks a tad cinematic (which is the point).
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Sodomy on August 19, 2009, 07:41:53 pm Chalk me up as another vote for the "ending new" filter. The faux-impressionist filter is fugly, but the sharper yet still "unreal" look is nice.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: suibhne on August 19, 2009, 07:52:27 pm I prefer the original. I'd like something that looks like a storybook, not "cinematic".
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Radek Smektala on August 19, 2009, 08:10:28 pm I like the "new" filter better - I believe it looks more subtle than the storybook one. I understand that's all subjective though.
As for the fucking fuck dillema, it bothers me as well, because it imprints personality on the PC, as noticed by others. I am wondering, could another character be made the narrator? Of course, he or she wouldn't know every detail the player does, but that could make for an even more interesting ending - finding out how one's deeds echoed in the gameworld. Still, I agree with Gareth that it's your game, Vince, and your game is what I want to play. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gauntt on August 19, 2009, 08:22:38 pm Both filters look fine to me. I like the way it sums up the story and then fades away. Kind of like you would be able to play on if you bought the actual game... I don't have a problem with the amount of swearing, it adds to the overall harsh/uncaring world of AoD. You just killed 20 people fighting in the arena for profit and fame. Swearing is necessary. I guess that since its a part of the summary there is no way to actually try and fight the six guards? Is that an impossible battle? Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 19, 2009, 08:28:06 pm I see Gareth was right about you and your insistence on the word's frequent inclusion. I'm not reacting to the number of fucks but how close together they are. You have three fucks before you're even halfway done, then no more fucks. Spread the fucking out a bit or something, I don't know. It just feels off to me.
The NEXT GEN filter thing was not supposed to be a serious suggestion, by the way. I was making a joke. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: suibhne on August 19, 2009, 08:29:44 pm As for the fucking fuck dillema, it bothers me as well, because it imprints personality on the PC, as noticed by others. I am wondering, could another character be made the narrator? Of course, he or she wouldn't know every detail the player does, but that could make for an even more interesting ending - finding out how one's deeds echoed in the gameworld. I really like this suggestion, and I wish I'd thought of it. ;) It won't have the same artistic voice, which is unfortunate because I really like the current writing even as I'm concerned about its impact on the player's own conception of the PC - but you could still achieve a similar style/tone with this third-person storyteller. This approach could end up tying the tone to the gritty gameworld even more effectively than the current second-person writing, and it could also offer a great sense that your character has had an impact on the gameworld by inspiring the telling of tales. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 19, 2009, 08:39:29 pm Both filters look fine to me. I like the way it sums up the story and then fades away. Kind of like you would be able to play on if you bought the actual game... I don't have a problem with the amount of swearing, it adds to the overall harsh/uncaring world of AoD. You just killed 20 people fighting in the arena for profit and fame. Swearing is necessary. I guess that since its a part of the summary there is no way to actually try and fight the six guards? Is that an impossible battle? I thought this setup could work very well for the entire game: you play, make your choices, then read the story you created. PS. Here is Oscar fighting the guards (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1060963237&postcount=48) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Oscar on August 19, 2009, 09:08:21 pm The NEXT GEN filter thing was not supposed to be a serious suggestion, by the way. I was making a joke. This is a serious site. Suggestions are taken seriously :P BTW, made both screens the same size in Vince's post, for a proper comparison. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Tuomas on August 19, 2009, 09:24:12 pm I thought this setup could work very well for the entire game: you play, make your choices, then read the story you created. Yeah, that's a great idea. A good way to shape a non-linear experience into a tight narrative. It should make people want to play the game again to get a different story. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 19, 2009, 09:35:14 pm This is a serious site. Suggestions are taken seriously :P BTW, made both screens the same size in Vince's post, for a proper comparison. :salute: Personally, I think a filter with a sketchier feeling would work better. Something a bit darker and more ill-defined. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Wrath of Dagon on August 19, 2009, 11:08:49 pm The original filter looks good to me, I don't know anything about photoshop.
Gareth has a point to an extent, but he seems to fail to grasp that Vince's tone is much less serious than Scars of War, so he can get away with a lot more in terms of the modern expressions, although of course there are limits. As far as profanity, once you overuse it, you give up the possibility of using it to express strong emotions, as well as sounding somewhat juvenile and grating. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Lamoot on August 20, 2009, 04:03:04 am How about something like this?
(http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/9931/aod.png) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: GhanBuriGhan on August 20, 2009, 04:27:28 am (http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/6025/20090034canvas.jpg)
thats sort of what I had in mind. (My very first mockup!!!) (How does one do those neat thumbnailed images?) Edit: as a side note, the above two images are a nice illustration of a minor graphics issue that subconciously bothered me for a while: in many screenshots, NPc's always stand facing the same angle, or in 90° steps. If there were a way to randomly let them face at slight variations of those angles, scenes would look less stiff and more lively. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: JuJu on August 20, 2009, 04:45:55 am How about this one?
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/328/endingremake.jpg) (http://img171.imageshack.us/i/endingremake.jpg/) Blurred irrelevant details (mostly walls), added slight canvas texture and made it a bit darker&edgier(tm). Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: GhanBuriGhan on August 20, 2009, 05:13:21 am Another quick one, based on Lamoots. Desaturated a bit compared to the first attempt. I like the border effect he added:
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/311/20090034canvas2.jpg) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Morbus on August 20, 2009, 06:09:46 am Huh. Those are ugly :P I prefer the next-gen filter.
Also, will the game have any filters? Maybe something very subtle could work well in enhancing the mood or something. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: GhanBuriGhan on August 20, 2009, 06:13:10 am I don't think that everyone gets the idea. First, you play the demo. You fight in the arena, become the champion (if you actually make it that far), then you're offered to join either Antidas or Gaelius in the normal dialogue mode, you make your choice, go to the inn where you are ambushed by the guards. You have several dialogue options there, some result in a fight and you're actually fight the guards and most likely die, some get you off the hook. THEN when the demo is done, you see the ending slides which sum up everything that happened to you and decisions you've made. So, first, you play the demo, then read a short, profanity-filled story about your adventures. I thought this setup could work very well for the entire game: you play, make your choices, then read the story you created. PS. Here is Oscar fighting the guards (http://www.rpgwatch.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1060963237&postcount=48) Ah, I had misunderstood it too, thought it was a short text-adventure "endgame". In this case, regarding the complaint of "putting words in the players mouth": How about writing the stories from a storytellers perspective then (3rd person) and in past tense? It automatically distances you from the narrative, and it is more like some author telling your story (which gives him the right to interpret the players character) then an immediate account of your own actions to yourself. Quote From the accounts of the Nimbrenus, the scribe: The arena champion stumbled backwards, sword falling from his hands as he tried to stop the blood gushing from his wound. His eyes lost focus and he fell slowly to the sand. $charcter_name was the champion now. Twenty people who fought against him had paid for his new title with their lives. Not bad, all things considered. Some people kill a lot more and end up with a lot less. The Arena Master greeted him with a wide smile. "It better be sincere", $charcter_name thought "The fucker made a fortune on you". ... Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Resch on August 20, 2009, 06:21:40 am My vote's on Lamoot's.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: catmorbid on August 20, 2009, 06:36:20 am My vote's on Lamoot's. It's nice. The rest mock-ups suck bad though. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Fryjar on August 20, 2009, 07:03:28 am I like Lamoot's filter best so far, closely followed by Ghan's second mockup.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Anonxeuix on August 20, 2009, 07:11:19 am I like Lamboot's too. Ghan's ones are a bit too intrusive for my liking. JuJu's good too.
I've got some photoshop projects but I don't think I can make it better than Lamboot's. I may try when I get the chance. EDIT: If I can find the unedited screenshot. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Saerden on August 20, 2009, 07:14:32 am Lamoot's one is the best so far, followed by the original one.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Fryjar on August 20, 2009, 07:27:47 am Well, I'll add my own mockup with an ink filter too. This way, it looks more like a painting:
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8931/mockupwix.jpg) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: GhanBuriGhan on August 20, 2009, 07:40:12 am Visually I like Fryjar's a lot, but I am not sure the 'comic' style fits AoD' mood. Regarding my own - the canvas effect can of course be turned down a bit to be less intrusive.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Anonxeuix on August 20, 2009, 07:41:50 am Well there aren't much more filters to try, and the rest aren't suitable for this picture.
Lamboot's my favourite. [attachment deleted to save space] Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: luckyb0y on August 20, 2009, 08:03:09 am Here's a quick one.
[attachment deleted to save space] Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 20, 2009, 08:15:03 am I like the font.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: GhanBuriGhan on August 20, 2009, 08:25:52 am One last attempt, maybe a little less obtrusive.
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/4326/20090034canvas3.jpg) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: the Grim One on August 20, 2009, 08:34:19 am my 2 cents: i like best the canvas one and find the ALL CAPS writing difficult to read
oh, and i don't give a fuck about "fuck" Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 20, 2009, 08:40:07 am Ghan's first attempt was pretty cool. Probably my favorite.
Ghan, you can click on Additional Options when you're posting/editing to attach screens. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Bradr on August 20, 2009, 08:45:05 am Another slow day at work.
[attachment deleted to save space] Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Kosmonaut on August 20, 2009, 08:47:08 am my 2 cents: i like best the canvas one and find the ALL CAPS writing difficult to read Yes, but the use of small caps (as lowecase substitute) helps a lot. Ghan's first attempt was pretty cool. Probably my favorite. I think a little bit of desaturation could improve it even more. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: luckyb0y on August 20, 2009, 09:08:54 am Font is lithos pro with a bit of toying around with sizes. I agree it's not easy on the eyes but that's the best "ancient" looking one I could find. You might want to try more roman than greek, though.
and another [attachment deleted to save space] Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Lamoot on August 20, 2009, 09:48:29 am I just realised everybody is using the already filtered screenshot, perhaps the original would be a better base for people to play with?
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: hilf on August 20, 2009, 10:22:20 am Something different.
[attachment deleted to save space] Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Oscar on August 20, 2009, 10:37:45 am What about this one?
[attachment deleted to save space] Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Morbus on August 20, 2009, 11:01:04 am God, papyrus is the ultimate crappy font. NO! :!:
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Oscar on August 20, 2009, 11:07:34 am God, papyrus is the ultimate crappy font. NO! :!: And the picture? Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Morbus on August 20, 2009, 11:25:16 am Oh, don't like. I prefer the next-genny stuff, as I said. It's your game though, of course.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 20, 2009, 12:19:45 pm Love the font.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Hazelnut on August 20, 2009, 12:22:14 pm I like Bradr's followed Ghan's first one the best FWIW. I like that lithos font too, but maybe not for the whole game I think. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Resch on August 20, 2009, 12:24:42 pm What about this one? I liked Ending New.jpg better, would be fine with less sepia. Lamoot's still best though, as far as I'm concerned.Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Oscar on August 20, 2009, 12:25:26 pm Also, will the game have any filters? Maybe something very subtle could work well in enhancing the mood or something. Morbus, it's still TGE :P Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Joey on August 20, 2009, 01:36:48 pm Hey there, fuckers.
I made a .gif. (http://www.joeyspijkers.com/misc_img/AoDFuckingEnd.gif) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Anonxeuix on August 20, 2009, 01:42:04 pm I lurve the dark one.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Lamoot on August 20, 2009, 01:54:32 pm Fuck Zwebb, that's some nice filter!
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Morbus on August 20, 2009, 02:20:51 pm It's not a filter. I mean, there are shadows and whatnot. It's very nice.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Oscar on August 20, 2009, 02:21:32 pm That's not a filter, but a very good hand made job :salute:
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: luckyb0y on August 20, 2009, 02:22:00 pm Exactly. How did you make those shadows? Is it a lot of work?
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Resch on August 20, 2009, 03:01:10 pm Zwebbie's my new favourite. Oscar, maybe you could render those scenes in Max with more dramatic lighting to achieve a similar effect? I imagine it would be less work than doing it by hand, though I don't know if it'd turn out as good.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Oscar on August 20, 2009, 03:05:23 pm Quote Oscar, maybe you could render those scenes in Max with more dramatic lighting to achieve a similar effect? I imagine it would be less work than doing it by hand, though I don't know if it'd turn out as good. Actually it's easier to do it by hand, with some filters and manually doing shadows and highlights, instead of setting all the models that are in the game in Max. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 20, 2009, 04:09:07 pm Awesome stuff, Zwebbie!
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: FireStomp on August 20, 2009, 05:14:57 pm Okay, Zwebbie is my new favorite person. I goggled, I punched the air, I lolled. To you, sir, I give great thanks.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: One Wolf on August 20, 2009, 05:25:52 pm Nice work Zweb, looks fantastic
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: CandyStick on August 20, 2009, 05:38:18 pm Not sure if this was asked before, but is the game going to have day/night cycle? It just occured to me that I can't recall any night screens.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Oscar on August 20, 2009, 05:42:24 pm Not sure if this was asked before, but is the game going to have day/night cycle? It just occured to me that I can't recall any night screens. No cycles, but there are some especial night missions. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Nick on August 20, 2009, 05:53:07 pm It just occured to me that I can't recall any night screens. Hm, I remember us posting some... found at Jedi's gallery: (http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii153/Culmination2008/The%20Age%20of%20Decadence/Unofficial%20Gallery/2006%20Screenshots/2006_0090.jpg) (http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii153/Culmination2008/The%20Age%20of%20Decadence/Unofficial%20Gallery/2006%20Screenshots/2006_0095.jpg) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: FireStomp on August 20, 2009, 06:06:02 pm I think he meant proper night screens, with the interface, maps, models and such that the game currently has, not the older versions.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 20, 2009, 06:15:08 pm Zwebbie wins. That's a hell of a lot better than the blotchy filter we saw before. Looks very atmospheric, and if mistaken for a screenshot it might make people think that you guys paid $20,000 for an engine rather than $200. :P
EDIT: Just fucking noticed the fucking text on Zwebbie's fucking mockup. Very fucking nice. ;) EDIT EDIT: Fuck. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Nick on August 20, 2009, 06:22:41 pm I think he meant proper night screens, with the interface, maps, models and such that the game currently has, not the older versions. Well, he said any night screens =) But that's true, these are the only that were ever shown *scratch* Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 20, 2009, 06:23:21 pm You have a Print Screen button right there, man. Use it!
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Claw on August 20, 2009, 06:25:32 pm I am partial to Fryjar's version. It gives me a clear idea of what I am looking at, and nicely offers a nice contrast to the normal game. With many other screens I just wonder why it looks different. Here, I have a clear idea: Someone made a painting to illustrate what happened.
Ghan's first two versions are also good, but I just love the effect Fryjar used. It's also very clear; many other filters are too distracting, imo. I don't like the "Ending New" versions at all. I was happy with the original screens, to be frank. But Fryjar's filter effect is very cool. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Nick on August 20, 2009, 06:26:48 pm You have a Print Screen button right there, man. Use it! Print Screen button is too serious and destructive force to mess with it! Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 20, 2009, 06:28:42 pm Print Screen button is too serious and destructive force to mess with it! (http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/9695/historyeraserbutton.jpg) PRESS IT DAMN YOU Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: CandyStick on August 20, 2009, 09:30:34 pm I think he meant proper night screens, with the interface, maps, models and such that the game currently has, not the older versions. Well, he said any night screens =) But that's true, these are the only that were ever shown *scratch* Doh!, And I even drew from those screens. Still, as mentioned, some more night screens would be nice to see. ;) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Nick on August 21, 2009, 05:18:54 am Doh!, And I even drew from those screens. My bad. The facts are piling and cluttering in my memory, too much stuff to remember. Blame my AoD duties. Now I do recall what quest your comic was about, even remember exact frames without looking. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: sporky on August 21, 2009, 06:35:44 am I like the original painting style, most of the ones that looked like they were on canvas, and zweb's dark shadow one.
With the swearing, I haven't been through the FAQs for a long time, has the game switched to straight historical? I thought it was still long-range post apoc. Linguistically, you could justify any speech you wanted if it was far in the future. I guess you can in the past too, now that I think about it. Would it be hard to include a profanity toggle in the "Options"? The F-bombs don't bother me personally, though. Isn't Vince living in Canada? No offense to anyone, but all the Canadians I know swear up a storm, but sound kinda cute doing it, like the "I'm not your buddy, pal", "I'm not your pal, friend" episode on South Park. ;) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Morbus on August 21, 2009, 07:41:56 am What future? What past? The world of AoD is completely made up! What kind of ideas are you guys getting?
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Joey on August 21, 2009, 08:48:01 am *feels appreciated*
(linking the image again (http://www.joeyspijkers.com/misc_img/AoDFuckingEnd.gif)) As to how it's made, it's not really that hard. Most of it is just some black and white doodling on a layer set to Soft Light. Occasionally, those wouldn't go dark or bright enough, so there's a normal layer in there too (mostly for the characters). In the end, I played with the Curves a bit to make the darks look more blue and the highlights more red. That last step was probably a bit overdone. The theory was that the whole image would look dark and cool, which would guide your eyes to the bright and warm area, where the focus should be. Not that I know what I'm talking about, though. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Vince on August 21, 2009, 08:54:22 am What future? What past? The world of AoD is completely made up! Or is it?Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Oscar on August 21, 2009, 09:22:21 am What future? What past? The world of AoD is completely made up! Or is it?Dun, dun, DUN!! Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on August 21, 2009, 02:23:15 pm What future? What past? The world of AoD is completely made up! Or is it?Dun, dun, DUN!! (Dramatic reverb!) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: FireStomp on August 21, 2009, 03:01:40 pm What future? What past? The world of AoD is completely made up! Or is it?Dun, dun, DUN!! (Dramatic reverb!) So... much... drama! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1Y73sPHKxw) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gazdatest on August 23, 2009, 05:49:26 pm This is what i could come up with in a relatively short time.
I (and everyone else) liked Zwebbie's version, so here is my version. BTW i don't like the basic photoshop filterd ones, best results are from painting the image. [attachment deleted to save space] Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: NecropolisCannibal on August 23, 2009, 09:19:02 pm Every fuckhead who complained about the language can go fuck their fucking mothers in their fat fucking asses!
I breezed right through both endings and it just made me want to play the game more. Then I read the posts from the peanut gallery and almost puked. Vince - why do you humor these Comicbook Guy lookalikes who're obviously afraid their mothers might read a little profanity over their shoulders when serving them snacks at their computers? Make your game... Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: theowl on August 24, 2009, 03:50:58 am Here is my attempt.
[attachment deleted to save space] Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on August 24, 2009, 05:16:06 am Hmm, so I watched Rome season 1 all weekend, I'm about 6 episodes in. And so far they have used the word "fuck" about twice, in place of "sex/copulate". Not used for emphasis in statements such as "fucking motherfuckers can go fuck themselves" at all. In fact most curses are "<Godname> spits/piss on you/body part", like "Hera spit on you!" or "Zeus' balls!" or whatever.
Does it change at some point? So far the dialogue does not sound particularly "modern", if you were to compare it to a show set in the modern era such as police drama the speech patterns would be noticeably different. As expected. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Imbecile on August 24, 2009, 02:27:59 pm Hmm, so I watched Rome season 1 all weekend, I'm about 6 episodes in. And so far they have used the word "fuck" about twice, in place of "sex/copulate". Not used for emphasis in statements such as "fucking motherfuckers can go fuck themselves" at all. In fact most curses are "<Godname> spits/piss on you/body part", like "Hera spit on you!" or "Zeus' balls!" or whatever. Does it change at some point? So far the dialogue does not sound particularly "modern", if you were to compare it to a show set in the modern era such as police drama the speech patterns would be noticeably different. As expected. Hmm as decent as Rome is, I'm not sure its the best example of profanity used in old world context (though they do use the word fuck. They just dont overuse it). I'd recommend reading some Joe Abercrombie (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Blade-Itself-Book-First-Gollancz/dp/0575079797/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1251142032&sr=8-1)if thats what you are trying to test. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: mugger5001 on August 25, 2009, 06:00:25 am the romans probably had some substitute for the word fuck, but i think a derogatory remark is needed in that sentance, he sounds pretty pissed off.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gazdatest on August 25, 2009, 10:56:22 am I just watched The Tudors, there they use fuck 3-4 times per 6 episode, and not in a sexual way.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: suibhne on August 25, 2009, 01:35:28 pm Maybe we should all be watching Deadwood instead. ;)
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: jbp26 on August 25, 2009, 04:09:11 pm SERIOUSLY WHO CARES
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: PrzeSzkoda on August 25, 2009, 05:18:42 pm Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: mugger5001 on August 26, 2009, 05:27:46 am so dose Jack Sparrow
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: sqeecoo on August 27, 2009, 10:02:47 am To be honest, I also don't like the use of the word "fuck". It's not that the word itself is modern, but the usage for things other then sex is modern. It just feels out of place. I can live with it, but I'd prefer taking up a few older insults like "whoreson" or even "goat-fucker" and sticking with them.
Ideally, you'd want something like this (not really, but I love the quote): KENT Fellow, I know thee. OSWALD What dost thou know me for? KENT A knave; a rascal; an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggarly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-livered, action-taking knave, a whoreson, glass-gazing, super-serviceable finical rogue; one-trunk-inheriting slave; one that wouldst be a bawd, in way of good service, and art nothing but the composition of a knave, beggar, coward, pandar, and the son and heir of a mongrel bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining, if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition. That's King Lear :P Oh and of course every discussion of the word "fuck" should include this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQbsnSVM1zM Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Morbus on August 27, 2009, 11:16:39 am It is believed that the word "fuck" (and it's antecedents) were used as far back as 500AD, although probably with sexual connotations. It is impossible to determine the likelihood of it being used in oral language for other purposes, and it's very hard to accurately trace its origins and evolution because it's mostly a spoken word.
Older insults is fine for mood setting, I believe, but don't go overboard. In general terms, even if fuck was used "back then" as it is used now, the fact that it is used now and understood as a modern expression makes it a mood breaker. On the other hand, because the one hand is mostly full of shit, if you look at the works of Andrzej Sapkowski, you'll probably be amazed at how modern the language employed fit the setting and the characters so well. Even if it's a translation, but I do remember him arguing about using old-school words and all that. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: caster on August 27, 2009, 01:54:40 pm Instead of word fuck you can always use similes which wont sound so modern, like "bugger" this and that and something similar. Just to break overuse of the same word. I dont mind a fuck here and there.
Apparently the word fuck is actually a acronym derived from http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/fuck.asp Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_profanity#Futuere:_to_fuck Quote Futuō, infinitive futuere, perfect futuī, past participle futūtum, Latin for "to copulate", can be used in some form.Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Morbus on August 27, 2009, 02:28:09 pm status: false
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: caster on August 27, 2009, 02:53:06 pm Read a bit further than that will you?
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Imbecile on August 27, 2009, 03:00:09 pm Read a bit further than that will you? I read to the bottom, and status: false seemed to sum things up nicely! Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: caster on August 27, 2009, 03:41:33 pm sigh...
alright, go pedicare yoursef with your own mentula! >:( Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Morbus on August 27, 2009, 04:51:15 pm sigh... WTF is that o non-developer post of most-posts?alright, go pedicare yoursef with your own mentula! >:( Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: caster on August 27, 2009, 11:21:47 pm A joke?
Just testing some old Latin words to see how they would sound if used in the game. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: laclongquan on August 28, 2009, 04:01:46 am You are a dog and if you dont behave I will treat you some ginger then barbecue. Dog roast is goooood.
PS: In case you are wondering, yeah, this is an attemp at insult using normal terms. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Nick on September 01, 2009, 07:03:07 am This thread is becoming retarded. I advise you to play these games somewhere else.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: almondblight on September 01, 2009, 07:29:35 am Put me very firmly in the pro-fuck category.
I remember I had a class some years ago where we read Lysistrata (great play, by the way). I got some academic book that tried to have the literal translation, my classmates got the penguin classics one (since I got mine from the university library and they bought theirs). As soon as I heard the excerpts of there books in class I was sure I enjoyed it much, much more than they did. The teacher even said at one point that the translation of a word (probably something like "rod") was off and the literal term was much closer to our term "prick" (which was what my book had). The puritanical bastards wanted to translate a sex comedy but were squeamish about the sex. How stupid is that? I can imagine that in 1,000 years some future civilization will translate American Pie, and the translation will be the equivalent of: "She shall be referred to as a MIWLEFW - Mother I Would Like to Engage in Fornication With, har har!" "Yeah the profanity feels a little out of place for that type of era. Feels too modern." ??? "It sounds like your character is either a ghetto thug " Yeah, it makes him sounds like a rough fighter from the lower classes...you better change that Vince... "Even if you want a lot of swearing, I'd use either descriptive terms like "swine / whoreson" or make up swear words/slang, ala "taffer" from Thief and "Frak" from BSG." God, please no. Both of those options would be horrible. In my opinion. "It's that swear words seem, due to common perception, to be out of place, jarring. I find it anachronistic. It may simply be one of those mindsets created by popular media, but I'd find the words "fuck" and "shit" out of place in any setting meant to be >100 years or so in the past." Yeah but fuck writing for the common perception. Some people believe silly things. The thing is, my perception, which is closer to reality, is that profanity has been around for a long time and that it's nothing new (do you guys really think this is a new phenomena?). As such it pisses the hell out of me when I'm playing a game that says "the old whoreson" which feels out of place in how the language is usually presented, and I feel should be presented - modern and neutrally. I don't think there should be modern slang (kirkin' etc.), but the only time people should attempt to use language from another era is if the setting is in that era and the writer is _really_ good. Why people think randomly taking stuff from older English makes sense is beyond me. "Basically, if your psuedo-romans sound just like your friends chatting in a bar or around your pool, they just sound fucking wrong." No, what...? If I was sitting around during Roman times with my friends and talking about tail, we wouldn't sound like we do now? We would sound less vulgar, because my mind "knows" that people weren't vulgar in the past? "It's not that they assume, it's that they feel it's a 20th century word and will see it as such." If they single out fuck as the one modern sounding word that seems out of place, because it's profanity...and they don't have problems with things like assassins, or thugs, or vandals, none of which should be used in this setting (going by the same logic)...as well as a lot of other words...I'm sorry, but I don't want to have to play a game watered down to appease morons. "In writing and fiction "fuck" for me usually means a lazyman's way to portrait a badass character." I know thuggish people that swear a lot, and people that try to be thuggish that swear a lot. So for me it works...oh fuck, I forgot, can't use thug... "This is how it works with your romanesque dialogue. You're placing modern speech patterns in an antiquities setting." ??? Sorry what you're saying makes absolutely no sense to me... Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gareth on September 01, 2009, 10:19:31 am I didn't say he shouldn't have swearing, I'm saying he shouldn't use turns of phrase that sound modern to readers, or overuse words that have the same "modern" feel. You can include plenty of profanity without making that profanity sound modern.
For example, the words "reading", "comprehension" and "fail" may be thousands of years old, for all I care. But if you use them in the following combination : Reading comprehension fail! You create a phrase which is irrevocably anchored in modern speech patterns in a reader's mind. Maybe people in ancient Rome said something equivalent, maybe they used the individual words in common use, it's irrelevant. Even if you provide proof that they did. To a reader it sounds like their perception of a modern person speaking and it jarrs. I am not arguing for the removal of profanity or vulgar language, so you can drop that strawman. The problem is not the amount of profanity, the problem is the way the profanity is presented sounds too modern. Quote No, what...? If I was sitting around during Roman times with my friends and talking about tail, we wouldn't sound like we do now? We would sound less vulgar, because my mind "knows" that people weren't vulgar in the past? Vince, for the love of all that is holy, please tell me now that you don't ever use the word "tail" as slang for referring to women in AoD. I could look past the "fucks" but "tail" would be too much. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: mugger5001 on September 01, 2009, 03:52:22 pm Surley when u consider the meaning of the word 'bugger' it is probably more modern than the turm 'fuck' for resons i would rather not go into
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: almondblight on September 01, 2009, 09:54:30 pm I didn't say he shouldn't have swearing, I'm saying he shouldn't use turns of phrase that sound modern to readers, or overuse words that have the same "modern" feel. You can include plenty of profanity without making that profanity sound modern. For example, the words "reading", "comprehension" and "fail" may be thousands of years old, for all I care. But if you use them in the following combination : Reading comprehension fail! That's because it's weighted to particular people and places. If I said, imagine someone who says "Reading comprehension fail!", you know it's someone in modern times who uses the internet a lot. If I say, imagine someone who says "fuck you", it's pretty neutral, anyone speaking English in modern times could have said it. Yes, so it sounds like modern English - the whole damn writing does, that's the point. It's not supposed to sound like Chaucer or Shakespeare. The speech patterns are rooted firmly in modern times - that's a given, and that's a good thing. The only problem would be if the speech patterns resembled a particular subset of the population too much - "reading comprehension fail" clearly sounding like internet speak, "balling" sounding hippitty hoppitty, "y'all" a bit too southern. In this sense, something like whoreson is more out of place than "fuck you". Quote You create a phrase which is irrevocably anchored in modern speech patterns in a reader's mind. Maybe people in ancient Rome said something equivalent, maybe they used the individual words in common use, it's irrelevant. Even if you provide proof that they did. To a reader it sounds like their perception of a modern person speaking and it jarrs. To you. I'm a reader too, and it jibes with me. It's the same speech pattern as the rest of the writing. Take for example, this (I just chose one excerpt at random): "Good question. You see, my people are valuable, while you, to put it bluntly, are not. Don't worry, I'm a good judge of talents, and since I don't see any, your tasks will be relatively simple." When does it sound like it was written? Does it sound like a modern person speaking? Of course it does. And that's a good thing, because really, what are the alternatives? Since all the writing so far has been modern sounding, "fuck" fits in quite well. I don't want a game written for people who think that out of use slang is somehow closer to or more in line with a fantasy setting inspired by Romans. And speaking of which, if you want to go with what's more out of place regarding the setting, "praetorian guard" should get the ax long before "fuck". Quote I am not arguing for the removal of profanity or vulgar language, so you can drop that strawman. The problem is not the amount of profanity, the problem is the way the profanity is presented sounds too modern. Strawman? I was responding to this: "It's that swear words seem, due to common perception, to be out of place, jarring. I find it anachronistic." Quote Vince, for the love of all that is holy, please tell me now that you don't ever use the word "tail" as slang for referring to women in AoD. I could look past the "fucks" but "tail" would be too much. :-[ Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Lamoot on September 02, 2009, 07:27:48 am Quote "Good question. You see, my people are valuable, while you, to put it bluntly, are not. Don't worry, I'm a good judge of talents, and since I don't see any, your tasks will be relatively simple." When does it sound like it was written? Does it sound like a modern person speaking? Of course it does. And that's a good thing, because really, what are the alternatives? Since all the writing so far has been modern sounding, "fuck" fits in quite well. All of the the words used in your example are more generic than "fuck" and don't bear the same impact, neither do they convey the same strong attachment to a certain culture or era. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Joey on September 02, 2009, 09:39:38 am Maybe it's just me, but I feel that replacing fucking with bloody just sounds a lot better, and bastard instead of fucker. That could sound just as stupid as fucking to British people, though, for whom it's everyday use.
Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: FireStomp on September 02, 2009, 12:37:50 pm Quote "Good question. You see, my people are valuable, while you, to put it bluntly, are not. Don't worry, I'm a good judge of talents, and since I don't see any, your tasks will be relatively simple." When does it sound like it was written? Does it sound like a modern person speaking? Of course it does. And that's a good thing, because really, what are the alternatives? Since all the writing so far has been modern sounding, "fuck" fits in quite well. All of the the words used in your example are more generic than "fuck" and don't bear the same impact, neither do they convey the same strong attachment to a certain culture or era. I really don't see the word "fuck" as modern or era-specific, any more than I see any of those "generic" words as being attached. Curse words like "fuck" and such sound just fine for modern-style (this meaning within the last 200-300 years, not 20-30) English, which is how the entire game is written, anyway. If at some point it annoys me or becomes jarring, I'll just chalk it up to translation convention and imagine they're going all Catullan on each other instead. No problem for me, but I can kiiiiiiiind of see your point. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: caster on September 02, 2009, 12:58:36 pm The problem is actually in overusing the word, not in its existence. Nobody expects the game to be written in old Roman (even if its only inspired by fall of Roman Empire) or in whatever we can now imagine old language or "old fashioned" style of talking.
Fuck is alright, if its not used in overly modern fashion. And i dont see any reason why there could not be other words used instead of it, from time to time. Like fornicate and bugger... im sure there is more. But also a more... descriptive insults like goat lover, testicle licker, fart breather, feces taster, etc. etc. Old Latins can be a very good source of those. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Gregorus Prime on September 02, 2009, 07:20:51 pm Maybe it's just me, but I feel that replacing fucking with bloody just sounds a lot better, and bastard instead of fucker. That could sound just as stupid as fucking to British people, though, for whom it's everyday use. Doesn't work. "Bloody" is the King's English, and I think it's derived from the old swear of "sblood" (God's blood). Like I said before, I have no problem with the word "fuck," it's density I'm worried about. If we're to take the ending Vince posted and extrapolate upon it using science technology then we can expect about 800 instances of the word "fuck" in the demo alone. :P Variety in my swears is what I want. Can I have some "shit" and "cocksucker" with my "fuck," please? :) Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: Morbus on September 02, 2009, 08:59:33 pm A joke? Latin with anglo-saxonic languages sound very bad in my opinion. It's tolerable if you're speaking french or portuguese though.Just testing some old Latin words to see how they would sound if used in the game. Title: Re: Game (and demo) endings Post by: caster on September 03, 2009, 04:46:22 am Yeah... Though if its used in the right moment in the right place it might work... add a bit of flavor kinda.
Most of the words could be changed a bit to become their AoD world counterparts. |