[Scott]

Experience Points, Skills, Traits and Level-ups

Detailed Skill Descriptions:  Mechanics, Mind, Deceit, Medicine, Arcanum, Physique, Hafted Weapons, Bladed Weapons, Firearms

Each Skill starts with a low base score based on the relevant stats and goes up potentially to 100.  Skills can go beyond that, but the PC can only purchase points up to 100, so 1-100 is the basic model.  Upgrades specific to a particular Skill may be granted by accomplishments in game, and by reading books.

Upon character creation, and upon level up, the PC will have Skill points to assign. When a Skill reaches 25 points, you are at rank I in that Skill, 50 rank II, 75 rank III, 90 rank IV.  It costs 1 Skill point to advance a Skill 1 point, at the beginning.  I’m thinking an increased cost at higher ranks, so that a significant investment is required to reach 95 or 100.

Each Skill has a list of associated Traits that may be purchased for varying numbers of skill points.  A Trait is a type of specialization or bonus relevant to its parent Skill.  You must have at least rank I (25 points) in the applicable Skill to purchase a Trait.  Some Traits require higher ranks, or have other Traits or minimum stats as prerequisites.  Some Traits can be learned in game, some can only be learned in game, and not purchased.  Some are negative and are either a consequence of a character Background or an in game event or choice.

*note:  certain Traits can only be purchased by the player at a library!  If you are lost in another dimension, get your level up, and decide to purchase the Trait Lockpick I, forget it.  You cannot learn to pick locks while losing your mind fighting cultists.  I acknowledge that some Traits a person could not reasonably be expected to learn in a short span of time.  This is a compromise.

Originally, I was going to say all Traits require you to be at the library, but some of the Traits under Mind, like Sound Sleeper [recover an additional point of Sanity for a night’s rest], reflect a growing personal discipline resulting from an accumulation of experience, and not something you would research.

Balance disclaimer:  different Skills have different numbers of associated Traits, which will no doubt be of varying utility.  The overall in game usefulness of a Trait will be reflected in its cost.  Also, I'm not going to make up a bunch of filler Traits to round up the set for the Skill Clubs just so every Skill can have the same number of Traits.  There will be no filler.

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[FireStomp]

A question on Traits...

Are there any traits requiring ranks in multiple skills? For instance, a Hamstring trait enabling blade strikes to decrease target's Dexterity, which requires rank I Medical and rank II Blades. Or the Pick Locks trait, which could require rank I Deceit and rank I Mechanics. Perhaps something involving Mind and Physique, to metabolize drugs more swiftly/slowly... Get my drift?

Stupid? Probably. But I like it. And it would strongly encourage spreading out skill points as a viable alternative to hyperfocusing on one, although I hope it would not make multi-skilling a requirement.

[Scott]

I don't think it's stupid at all, but maybe overkill for a game with (right now) not too many different Traits.  On the one hand it would encourage development of multiple skills, but it also would mean more advance planning to get the really cool stuff, ie.  Boy, I'd really like to hamstring that goon!  I'd better plan on developing both Medicine and Blades so I can one day.

[FireStomp]

Yeah, I can see that being an issue. Still, it was worth a shot.

[Sleet]

Experience Points, Skills, Traits and Level-upshttp://
I definitely need feedback on this.  Here is the story so far:
Vince advocates the Trickle Method of distributable points to upgrade your PC, meaning you get one or two points when you accomplish something, and can spend them any time.  (Vince, I’ll correct this if it isn’t accurate)  Here’s how I see the pros & cons of that approach.
trickle of skill points:  immediate gratification, have to “save up” to purchase traits.  Conclusion:  it’s like having a job.
level ups:  get lump sum of points all at once, ponder how to distribute them, know that it’s a long wait until next time.  Conclusion:  it’s like Christmas.

I prefer the trickle method, based on skill-use. A good game that did this was Darklands. Try it out if you have time. Was always nice to see the used skills going up (slower once you reach higher skill level)
The RPG P'n'P game did the same.
I guess it is preference, I don't see the trickle method as a a job. Guess I like the immediate gratification better than Xmas. LOL.
The other reason I like trickle is it increases skills you use, rather than getting a level then pumping up a skill you never used before. personal preference once again.

Skills:  Mechanics, Mind, Deceit, Medicine, Arcanum, Physique, Clubs, Blades, Guns
Each Skill starts with a very low score based on the relevant stats and goes up potentially to 100.  Skills can go beyond that, but the PC can only purchase points up to 100, so 1-100 is the basic model.  Upgrades specific to a particular Skill may be granted by accomplishments in game, and by reading books.

Great, how about off the top of my head:
Demolitions
Missile weapons (ie grenade, knife, hand ax, x-bow, etc)
Stealth (hide, sneak etc.)
Set/Disarm Trap
Open lock
Decipher code
Read script/old language (or does Arcanum cover this)
Local History
Ancient History (or alien history)
Tracking
Outdoorsman (for the Big-Game Hunter)

Upon character creation, and upon level up, the PC will have Skill points to assign. When a Skill reaches 25 points, you are at rank I in that Skill, 50 rank II, 75 rank III, 90 rank IV.  It costs 1 Skill point to advance a Skill 1 point, at the beginning.  I’m thinking an increased cost at higher ranks, so that a significant investment is required to reach 95 or 100.

Sounds good, I would say once your skill level is over 50, and upwards it should be harder/more expensive to raise.

Each Skill has a list of associated Traits that may be purchased for varying numbers of skill points.  A Trait is a type of specialization or bonus relevant to its parent Skill.  You must have at least rank I (25 points) in the applicable Skill to purchase a Trait.  Some Traits require higher ranks, or have other Traits or minimum stats as prerequisites.  Some Traits can be learned in game, some can only be learned in game, and not purchased.  Some are negative and are either a consequence of a character Background or an in game event or choice.

*note:  certain Traits can only be purchased by the player at a library!  If you are lost in another dimension, get your level up, and decide to purchase the Trait Lockpick I, forget it.  You cannot learn to pick locks while losing your mind fighting cultists.  I acknowledge that some Traits a person could not reasonably be expected to learn in a short span of time.  This is a compromise.

Originally, I was going to say all Traits require you to be at the library, but some of the Traits under Mind, like Sound Sleeper [recover an additional point of Sanity for a night’s rest], reflect a growing personal discipline resulting from an accumulation of experience, and not something you would research.

In a separate thread, I am going to post the current Traits set for the Deceit Skill to help clarify these rules.

Balance disclaimer:  different Skills have different numbers of associated Traits, which will no doubt be of varying utility.  The overall in game usefulness of a Trait will be reflected in its cost.  Also, I'm not going to make up a bunch of filler Traits to round up the set for the Skill Clubs just so every Skill can have the same number of Traits.  There will be no filler.

Looks good.

[Scott]

Thanks for the suggestions.  Just a clarification:  I'm hoping for suggestions for Deceit Traits in this thread.  I guess really I should be happy to take them in whatever order they arrive!

[Ellorien]

trickle of skill points:  immediate gratification, have to “save up” to purchase traits.  Conclusion:  it’s like having a job.
level ups:  get lump sum of points all at once, ponder how to distribute them, know that it’s a long wait until next time.  Conclusion:  it’s like Christmas.

My vote: go Christmas.

[renkin]

This sounds fun. A bit like a unification of Arcanum's training and the perk picking in Fallout. A lot more interesting than just raising numbers.

Some (potentially stupid) questions:

1. Will there be only one kind of skill points, and those are used for both raising skills and buying traits?

2. Will all skills be used for checks in the game, or will some only be for making more traits available? That is, will some skills be useless unless you raise them to at least 25?

[Scott]

1. Yes, skill points are used both for increasing skills and buying traits.  I thought about calling them 'character points' or something, but then I didn't.
2. The pure combat skills, Clubs, Blades, Guns will probably only be used in combat.  I anticipate that all other skills will have checks, as well as enabling traits.

[renkin]

1. Yes, skill points are used both for increasing skills and buying traits.  I thought about calling them 'character points' or something, but then I didn't.
2. The pure combat skills, Clubs, Blades, Guns will probably only be used in combat.  I anticipate that all other skills will have checks, as well as enabling traits.

Quick reply!

Ah, yes. I forgot to mention it, but I assumed hit checks to be the natural "checks" for combat skills. Anyway, those were the answers I wanted and expected. Me pleased.

[Mad Mantis]

The benefit to trickle skill points is that I do not need to wait an entire level to reach goals. Often in Fallout I would need a skill point or three to be able to beat a skill check. I had to gain an entire level to beat it. This could become quite frustrating at higher levels when it takes a long time to level. However there is an increased feeling of accomplishment associated with leveling up and gaining a lot of skill points. Out of convenience sake I would go for trickle.

As I understand it traits need skill points to buy. Does this mean that you need to make a choice between buying a trait or increasing one of your skills?

When a Skill reaches 25 points, you are at rank I in that Skill, 50 rank II, 75 rank III, 90 rank IV.

Why this odd progress? You are going at 25 each time for a new rank but rank IV is gained after 15 points? Why not get it upon maxing a skill?

[Scott]

Out of convenience sake I would go for trickle.

I forgot to mention another thing I don't like about the Trickle Effect:  gameplay is interrupted ten times as often as with the level-up, as in:  Ooh, two more points.  I better check if anything needs a little nudge.

As I understand it traits need skill points to buy. Does this mean that you need to make a choice between buying a trait or increasing one of your skills?

Yes.

Why this odd progress? You are going at 25 each time for a new rank but rank IV is gained after 15 points? Why not get it upon maxing a skill?

The odd progression will probably reflect increased cost for points, as well as availability of traits.  For example (this isn't written in granite):  Skill points cost 1 each up to 50, 2 up to 75, 3 up to 90, then 4 up to 100.

[Sleet]

Ahh I think you misunderstand my meaning for skill progression. I suggest that it be trickle, in that if you use a skill, there is a chance it can be improved.
You don't get a bonus 2 points(for instance) to put on any skill you choose. The skill used would be checked. If the skill used is successful, you have a % chance to improve automatically after battle/use etc. If the % chance is met, then the skill goes up.

As before, this is how Darklands does it.

If not feasible/to your liking not a problem. It is your game. 

[renkin]

Ahh I think you misunderstand my meaning for skill progression. I suggest that it be trickle, in that if you use a skill, there is a chance it can be improved.
You don't get a bonus 2 points(for instance) to put on any skill you choose. The skill used would be checked. If the skill used is successful, you have a % chance to improve automatically after battle/use etc. If the % chance is met, then the skill goes up.

The problem with that is that it can often be abused in ridiculous ways. Like in Morrowind, how jumping down the same rock over and over again, spraining my foot every time, would eventually make me an adept acrobat.

I forgot to mention another thing I don't like about the Trickle Effect:  gameplay is interrupted ten times as often as with the level-up, as in:  Ooh, two more points.  I better check if anything needs a little nudge.

I've always liked the system used in the RPGish adventure game Shadowrun for SNES (loosely based on the PnP). There, you gain 'karma' for killing things, but you can only use it to raise your stats while sleeping in a bed.

[Oscar]

The problem with that is that it can often be abused in ridiculous ways. Like in Morrowind, how jumping down the same rock over and over again, spraining my foot every time, would eventually make me an adept acrobat.

That depends on the game. In a ISO game where your options to use your skills are limited that won't happen. For example, let's use AoD. There is no random combat, and if you get into random fights you'll get your ass hitted so hard that you will not be able to improve anything, you can't use streetwise in anyone you meet, as it's limited to quests, there is not an endless supply of items for crafting. Anyway, you get the point. The problem is that for many people it would be boring, as they find allocating skill points fun.

If you want to "improve what you use", you can allocate the skill points in what you used to obtain them. You gained them through a fight? Allocate them to the weapons you used.

Regarding trickle of skill points and level ups, I prefer the trickle. I like playing around the character screen, and I find annoying waiting a lot of time to reach an arbitrary limit, especially in later levels. Besides, I don't like the concept of a "level". What is a level? What does it represent?

[renkin]

The problem with that is that it can often be abused in ridiculous ways. Like in Morrowind, how jumping down the same rock over and over again, spraining my foot every time, would eventually make me an adept acrobat.

That depends on the game. In a ISO game where your options to use your skills are limited that won't happen. For example, let's use AoD. There is no random combat, and if you get into random fights you'll get your ass hitted so hard that you will not be able to improve anything, you can't use streetwise in anyone you meet, as it's limited to quests, there is not an endless supply of items for crafting. Anyway, you get the point. The problem is that for many people it would be boring, as they find allocating skill points fun.

You're right, learning through usage can work if care is taken when designing the game (which should always be the case, of course), but my experience is that those systems are almost always broken. Your point about it not being fun is also a good one.

[Geofferic]

I advocate another option all together.

Skill-based system, but you get skill points in the skill you used as you use it.  Think Ultima Online.

However, where we diverge from UO is here:  For every so many skill-points earned (choose your favorite arbitrary number) you receive a 'free' skill point to be put into any category you like.

So for example, you use a long sword 100 times and you get 1 skill point increase in long sword using.  You use a long sword 500 times and you get 5 skill point increases in long sword as well as 1 generic skill point that you can put into needle point or algebra or underwater basket weaving or even long sword, if you're not as contrarian as I am.

[caster]

I kind of like level up system. Maybe just because i so influenced by Fallout but it always seemed to me it was a kind of reward you get after managing to go through the game for a while.

In adition to that and only as an adition i would like to see some form of getting better at what you do by doing it.
It can be automatic or you could receive skill points to distribute as in trickle design. These should be minor tweaks.

Also one very important thing to have in the leveling or skill system would be the separation of skills and skill points you receive to say... combat points, dialogue points and so on. So you would not be able to spend combat related exp points or skill points to anything else but combat skills. And you wouldnt be able to increase combat skills with exp or skill points received from non combat quests and... reading books and so on.


I quite like the traits idea since those remind of of perks from Fallout and i was just going to ask about something like those.

[Scott]

You will *occasionally* earn fixed Skill points, ie. +1 to Arcanum, in game, but they won't be the main source of earned points.  You can get these fixed points from reading books, getting training, or finishing a quest in a certain way that shows your commitment to one approach, like sneaking and lying your way through a quest instead of shooting.

[Ted]

Skill-based system, but you get skill points in the skill you used as you use it. However... For every so many skill-points earned (choose your favorite arbitrary number) you receive a 'free' skill point to be put into any category you like.

This sounds sensible. Or the D&D approach: you get your skill points every level, but less often you can take the Skill focus feat.

I'm hoping for suggestions for Deceit Traits in this thread.

Well I would have said Disguise, Forgery and Conceal Weapon, but looking at the other thread you've already dealt with those. There's Bluffing in general (which can be used in combat, since this is turn-based)... Sense Motive, too: you don't kid a kidder. That would be a cross-skill trait, I guess: did you have any of those in mind? Maybe the ability to cheat at cards (if thats relevant) or fool people trying to use hypnotism or other mind-affecting powers on you (if thats relevant).

certain Traits can only be purchased by the player at a library! If you are lost in another dimension, get your level up, and decide to purchase the Trait Lockpick I, forget it. You cannot learn to pick locks while losing your mind fighting cultists. I acknowledge that some Traits a person could not reasonably be expected to learn in a short span of time. This is a compromise.

I REALLY like this