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Author Topic: 4/18 Monday Design Update - Weapons: Hunting Shotgun  (Read 22128 times)
Brian
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« on: April 18, 2011, 09:46:08 pm »

It’s about time we looked at the old undead-killing standby – the shotgun. Today's update is specifically focused on the Hunting Shotgun.


But first, let’s examine the basic mechanics of ranged weapons. One thing to keep in mind with ranged weapons is that they are generally loud. They are great against humans, but zombies absorb ballistic damage better, so unless the player scores a critical hit (head shot), zombies will take less damage from ranged weapons. Almost all ranged weapons can be modded in some way.

Their range is measured as the maximum range a competent shooter could hit a non-moving target 100% of the time. Accuracy is a factor of the shooter’s ranged weapon and perception skill, the target’s agility, and the range at which the shot is being attempted versus the maximum “recommended” range of the weapon. For example, if a gun’s max range is 4 and the shooter’s perception is 4, they have a 100% chance of hitting the target before the target’s agility modifier is applied. If the shooter’s perception was 3, they would have a 75% chance of hitting the target before the agility modifier was applied.

The ranged weapon skill increases the likelihood of placing a better shot or scoring a critical hit – think of it as the ability for a shooter to not only hit their target, but hit a vital area. If the shooter has a ranged weapon skill of 4 and the target is at range 4, there would be no bonus to damage done if the shot was successful, but if that target moved one step closer to range 3, the shooter would now have a better shot, and a successful hit would get a 10% damage modifier and a 5% chance to critical. The better your ranged weapon skill, the more likely it is that shots you have landed will do more damage, because your character is aiming for “kill” zones.

Keep in mind that guns need ammo and are useless without it. They also need to be reloaded from time to time, so keep an eye on your remaining rounds. Some guns can be reloaded faster than others. It may be a good idea to bring a secondary weapon in case your primary weapon runs out of ammo.

Now, let’s look at the pros and cons of the shotgun class:

PROS

-More common than rifles.
-Ammo is fairly common.
-Ammo is consistent for all versions of the shotgun (shells).
-Devastating at close range on undead and humans, even with little skill.
-Chance to critical can be high, depending on the skill of the shooter.

CONS

-Extremely loud.
-Maximum effective range is poor
-Longest reload time.
-Basic models hold little ammo.
-Unreliable damage outside their operating range.

Shotguns are pretty much what you would expect – lots of damage for little skill at close range. Their critical chance is high, and their critical damage can be devastating. They would be a perfect weapon for closer range if not for the amount of noise they make and their long reload rates – they attract zombies when fired, and frequent reloading (for basic models) means you won’t fire fast enough to take out a group if surrounded. They are, with one exception, all two-handed. In a pinch, the shotgun can do some major damage, but over-reliance on it will have every zombie in the area heading your way.

Let’s take a look at the stats for the basic model of shotgun, the Hunting Shotgun.

Hands: 2 (AP cost for switching weapons)
Range: 4 (Average range)
AP Cost Firing: 4 AP
AP Cost Reloading: 8 AP
Ammo Capacity: 2 (Low, double barrel capacity)
Ammo Type: Shells
Type: Ballistic (Good against humans/non-ballistic armor)
Damage: 45-70 (High at close range, drops off due to spread at longer ranges)
Noise: 20 (Very Loud)
Critical Hit Chance: 10% (Good chance for criticals)
Critical Multiplier: 2 (Good critical multiplier)
Weight: 7.5 (Moderately heavy)
Break: 0 (Weapon will not break)
Mods:

Sawed-Off Barrel – Permanently transforms gun into a Sawed-Off Shotgun.

As you can see, if you can get a hit with the shotgun, your target's going to be in bad shape. Note that the damage range may come down a bit with combat balance - but guns always do a lot of damage for the noise risk they carry. Remember, this is just the basic model shotgun, so expect to see some better ones in future updates.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 12:09:06 pm by Oscar » Logged
RadioactiveMan
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2011, 11:59:10 pm »

Huzzah- our first update about a long ranged weapon!

I don't have much to add- Your post does quite a good job outlining the role of this weapon.  A few little questions come to mind (as always, seeking more information):

-Damage is 45 to 70- Will most characters (and zombies?) have 100-ish health? So, this gun would kill in two hits, pretty much always, Is that how I should read that?
-Will there be variation in ammo type? Hard to know if that complicates combat and inventory unnecessarily, but almost every game seems to have tons of ammo variants. 
-On a related note, can guns shoot through people to hit other targets? Or shoot through walls/doors?
-Any chance to use the gun as a melee weapon, or fend off zombies? I feel like bayonets have already been discussed and ruled out in another thread, but I can't recall.
-Break = 0 - no chance to break. Is this the case for all guns? No jamming to worry about?

Thanks as always for the updates!  Looking forward to this game; and rooting for you, as a fellow Seattlite- although I'm no longer living there.
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Forestmarko
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2011, 12:18:48 am »

all sounds pretty much "as expected"
 i was wondering though.. if the more advanced models will be military autoshotguns... with all of theirs pros and cons ofc
and yay! an update
keep up the good work Smile
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Caidoz
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2011, 12:30:51 am »

Great to finally see a gun/long range weapon!

For semi and fully automatic guns, will there be some way of switching between single, burst, and full auto modes on the gun?

Also, I noticed that it said the ammo types for all shotguns would be the same; does that mean no slugs?
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2011, 05:35:26 am »

Will there be duel wielding? What are the stats of the Sawed Off?
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CLJNT
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2011, 05:54:55 am »

-Damage is 45 to 70- Will most characters (and zombies?) have 100-ish health? So, this gun would kill in two hits, pretty much always, Is that how I should read that?
-Will there be variation in ammo type? Hard to know if that complicates combat and inventory unnecessarily, but almost every game seems to have tons of ammo variants.  


-I would assume so. The critical hit looks pretty devastating; so depending on armour modifiers I would guess 1-2 shots?
-Here's an idea: When collecting ammo eg. shells, all variants of this ammo type collect into the same slot in a player's inventory. It is up to the player to sort the variants into separate slots. The advantage of this is that when reloading, the player has a choice of what ammo type to choose from, the drawback is that it takes up more slots.

I can see this becoming a nuisance and an unnecessary chore, however a character would probably not be carrying more than 2 weapons that require ammo anyway, so maybe not.

-Does a successful hit from a ranged/ballistic weapon result in a high % chance of bleeding?

Sorry if any of this is misguided, I need to read through the archives again.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 06:06:52 am by CLJNT » Logged
Brian
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« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2011, 01:00:07 pm »

Huzzah- our first update about a long ranged weapon!

I don't have much to add- Your post does quite a good job outlining the role of this weapon.  A few little questions come to mind (as always, seeking more information):

-Damage is 45 to 70- Will most characters (and zombies?) have 100-ish health? So, this gun would kill in two hits, pretty much always, Is that how I should read that?
Yes and no. Right now, guns (especially shotgun at close range) do a lot more damage than most melee weapons. Barring armor and ballistic armor, this would be one to two shots. Most likely we're  going to tweak this damage, probably to make it so that the ranged weapon skill adds a lot of the damage/crit chance. The average amount of health is about 100 right now, so... yeah, might be too unforgiving.

Quote
-Will there be variation in ammo type? Hard to know if that complicates combat and inventory unnecessarily, but almost every game seems to have tons of ammo variants. 
Not at the moment. All shotguns use the same shells (buckshot), some other guns share ammo types, and a few take their own specific type of ammo. It's not a priority to have multiple types of ammo for each gun right now, but could be something we add in later.

Quote
-On a related note, can guns shoot through people to hit other targets? Or shoot through walls/doors?
Not right now, but the spread from something like the shotgun could hit more than just your target.

Quote
-Any chance to use the gun as a melee weapon, or fend off zombies? I feel like bayonets have already been discussed and ruled out in another thread, but I can't recall.
Nope. That would kind of break the balance between ranged and melee. Some guns have alternate firing modes, but none of them can be used as melee weapons.

Quote
-Break = 0 - no chance to break. Is this the case for all guns? No jamming to worry about?
None of the guns break and none of them jam. I find jamming to put too much emphasis on luck rather than strategy. It is frequently more annoying than it is dramatic. It's like if you went to hit something with a bat and tripped every few attacks. Running out of ammo at inopportune moments has the same effect. Maybe for the hardcore mode we'll think about a "hide ammo counter" toggle or something so that you have to realistically count your shots.

Quote
Thanks as always for the updates!  Looking forward to this game; and rooting for you, as a fellow Seattlite- although I'm no longer living there.
Thanks! And I'm not sure where you are now, but we're having the worst April weather ever here, so you're probably warmer right now.
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Brian
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« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2011, 01:12:46 pm »

all sounds pretty much "as expected"
 i was wondering though.. if the more advanced models will be military autoshotguns... with all of theirs pros and cons ofc
and yay! an update
keep up the good work Smile

There are better shotguns. The hunting shotgun, for instance, has to be reloaded after every two shots. Pump-action shotguns can carry a lot more shells than the hunting shotgun.

Great to finally see a gun/long range weapon!

For semi and fully automatic guns, will there be some way of switching between single, burst, and full auto modes on the gun?
Several guns have toggles between firing modes. Very few are fully automatic, but there are a few with burst settings.

Quote
Also, I noticed that it said the ammo types for all shotguns would be the same; does that mean no slugs?
For balance reasons, shotguns are always shot, not slug ammo. This makes their spread pattern larger and their damage more inconsistent.

Will there be duel wielding? What are the stats of the Sawed Off?
There is no dual-wielding. Sawed-Off stats will be shown off in a future update. They are very similar to the hunting shotgun, but the sawed-off always fires in double-barrel mode, has a shorter range, and is a bit more limited in its tactics (not in a bad way) than the hunting shotgun.

-Does a successful hit from a ranged/ballistic weapon result in a high % chance of bleeding?

Currently, no. Only melee weapons can cause that status. If we added bleeding to a gunshot, it'd make them even more over-powered than they already are.
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Amgot
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2011, 02:25:11 pm »

Damn I can't wait for this game.
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RadioactiveMan
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« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2011, 12:09:36 am »

Cool- thanks for the reply Brian.  Seems to be reasonable and well thought out... so, looking forward to the game quite a bit!

Not related to Dead State, but I have left Seattle to go to Vancouver, BC.  Vancouver is less rainy and with better summers, but only in a way that someone from Seattle could understand.  To anyone not from the Pacific Northwest, its all grey and wet... Grin
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CLJNT
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« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2011, 07:45:43 am »

-Does a successful hit from a ranged/ballistic weapon result in a high % chance of bleeding?

Currently, no. Only melee weapons can cause that status. If we added bleeding to a gunshot, it'd make them even more over-powered than they already are.

That's cool.
If all you had to do was take a shot and run around whilst the enemy bled out, I think the realism/enjoyment factor wouldn't be all that balanced..

Hope all is well, can't wait for the next update.
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Goweigus
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« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2011, 10:54:26 am »

Quote
Maybe for the hardcore mode we'll think about a "hide ammo counter" toggle or something so that you have to realistically count your shots.

Yeah I suppose in this game one wouldn't use the same gun enough times for it to get dirty enough or wear down to break or jam huh. I like the ammo counter idea, I know how I could get by and roleplay it in game! *I have some of those little counter things like the people at Costco, so if I didn't want to have to remember how much ammo I had in the the clip all the time I could just count the number of shots I took (and pretend my character in the game is doing the same with one in his pocket) Tongue
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wesleyclark
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« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2011, 09:49:06 pm »

There are better shotguns. The hunting shotgun, for instance, has to be reloaded after every two shots. Pump-action shotguns can carry a lot more shells than the hunting

Several guns have toggles between firing modes. Very few are fully automatic, but there are a few with burst settings.

Will the Hunting Shotgun have a toggle to discharge both barrels at once?  A trade off of a larger single damage round vs having to reload sooner?
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Caidoz
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« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2011, 09:58:17 pm »

Kind of related to the above question, will guns and long range weapons have "special attacks" like the melee weapons?  The pitchfork, for example, has the basic attack, trip, and pin.  For the hunting shotgun, is it just going to be a single attack, or as wesleyclark asked, can you do single and a double barrel shot? 

You said there won't be melee attacks with guns, but maybe for a third attack you could "Aim Carefully" or something, for an increased critical/damage chance at the cost of speed/additional AP.

Also, can guns cause any status effects?  You said earlier it won't cause bleeding, but can gunfire and noise cause a character to become panicked?  Maybe you have a really tough old war veteran survivor with you, and he's normally fine but has flashbacks and panics easily when under gunfire.  Those kinds of details would be amazing.  Smile
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« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2011, 08:06:10 am »

Also, can guns cause any status effects?  You said earlier it won't cause bleeding, but can gunfire and noise cause a character to become panicked?  Maybe you have a really tough old war veteran survivor with you, and he's normally fine but has flashbacks and panics easily when under gunfire.  Those kinds of details would be amazing.  Smile

Anecdotally, according to my lady friend, who works with veterans, the only time many of them feel normal is when the shit is going down. It's normal life that gives them problems.
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