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Author Topic: 12/13 Monday Design Update - Weapons: Kitchen Knife  (Read 11942 times)
Brian
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« on: December 14, 2010, 01:09:16 AM »

This week starts a series in which we start looking at some of the pros and cons of the many different kinds of melee and ranged weapons in Dead State.  We’ve covered the basics of melee and ranged before here:

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,1094.0.html

Today, we’re going to cover a very basic weapon from the “knives” category of weapons. Here’s a look at the kitchen knife:



As you can see, it’s a pretty common knife, not really designed for combat. That’s reflected in its skills. But before we talk about its stats, let’s take a look at the basics pros and cons of knives in the game.

Pros

-Bladed weapons, which means that every attack they do has some chance to cause bleeding.
-Lighter, quicker weapons, giving all knives some chance to counter an enemy’s attack.
-All knives are one-handed weapons, which means there is no penalty to switch to them from other one-handed weapons.
-Good critical chance.
-AP cost for basic attack is on the lower side.

Cons

-Knives do less damage than most other types of weapons.
-Despite higher crit rate, critical hit multiplier is low.
-Better models of knives are harder to find.
-Knives do significantly less damage to zombies than humans.

This may be a lot of new info and jargon, so let’s flesh out a few of these concepts. First off, let me explain two of these status modifiers.

Bleeding – Weapons with this stat modifier have a chance to cause bleeding when attacking (note: Only humans can bleed!) The bleeding status causes a small amount of damage per turn for several rounds unless medical attention is received.

Counter – Weapons with a counter ability have a chance to automatically initiate a basic attack when directly attacked by an enemy.

Critical Chance – Chance for a critical multiplier to be applied to damage dealt. The higher this number, the more likely the weapon will critical.

Critical Multiplier – The amount damage is changed when an attack is critical. The higher this number, the higher the damage dealt when an attack is critical.

Now let’s look at the Kitchen Knife’s stats:

Hands: 1 (Can keep another object in second hand)
Range: 1 (Must be standing next to target)
Type: Slashing (Counts as Slashing damage, not good VS armor with high Slashing Resistance)
Stat Chance: Counter 40%, Bleeding 20%  (Good counter chance, decent chance to cause bleeding)
Noise: 2 (Extremely quiet weapon)
Strength: 1 (Strength required to wield effectively, this one is one of the lightest)
ZDamage: 40% (It only does 40% of normal damage against zombies, so not good for undead)
Critical Hit Chance: 10% (Pretty high chance for criticals)
Critical Multiplier: 2 (But only does double damage)
Weight: 1 (Very light)
Break: 5% (Low chance to break)

Let’s look at Break for a sec. Weapons designed for punishment or combat won’t break. The kitchen knife is an “improvised” weapon, therefore, it has a chance to break. Basically – carry a spare weapon or look for a better knife if you’re using this. Broken items cannot be repaired.

On to Attacks – here’s what you can do with the kitchen knife in a fight.

Basic Attack – The default attack
AP Cost: 3 (Really quick weapon – a fast character could attack multiple times per round)
Damage: 3-10 (Not very high damage, range of damage makes it unreliable as a damage dealer)

Slash – A vicious slash.
AP Cost: 5
Damage: 1-7
Modifier: +40% chance to cause Bleeding (Bleeding is almost a guarantee)

Flurry – A series of quick strikes (think Norman Bates in Psycho)
AP Cost: 7
Damage: 3-10 (3 attacks in a row)
Modifier: Accuracy -30% (Not very accurate)

Plunge – Destroys the weapon but aims to do as much damage as possible.
AP Cost: 6
Damage: 10
Modifier: Critical 100%, Bleeding 100%, Break 100%

Every weapon has special attacks that are unique to that weapon/class of weapons. Using special attacks wisely can give you a tactical edge in combat – they’re not necessarily more damage. Special attacks are used to cause status, trip or push back enemies, and even disarm enemies. Melee weapons excel at special attacks and causing statuses, so if you’re a melee guy, get to know the strengths and disadvantages of your weapons.

As we continue showing off weapons, their strategic uses will make more sense. Any questions about the knife or combat that don't appear in our FAQ or original post, feel free to post below.
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Goweigus
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« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2010, 01:46:34 AM »

Quote
-All knives are one-handed weapons, which means there is no penalty to switch to them from other one-handed weapons.

What if the one handed weapon you are switching to isn't already in your other hand? (what if its in your pocket?)

Quote
Counter – Weapons with a counter ability have a chance to automatically initiate a basic attack when directly attacked by an enemy.

Do any guns have this? Perhaps ones with bayonets?

Quote
ZDamage: 40% (It only does 40% of normal damage against zombies, so not good for undead)

Does this mean that you guys have chosen to represent a zombie's ability to take lots of damage and keep going by simply making all weapons do less damage to zombies?


PS: So players will not be able to 'stab' with a kitchen knife without destroying it?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 01:48:10 AM by Goweigus » Logged
Caidoz
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« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2010, 02:02:06 AM »

Awesome!  Nice to see a glimpse of some of the mechanics behind combat.  Grin

Will left or right-handedness be a factor at all?
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Daris
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2010, 02:17:47 AM »

This seems awesome, which means Blunt weapons should be able to do good against Zombies correct, yay for more realism.  [And yay for the Warhammer I keep in my closet.]
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Oscar
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2010, 04:18:15 AM »

Quote
ZDamage: 40% (It only does 40% of normal damage against zombies, so not good for undead)

Does this mean that you guys have chosen to represent a zombie's ability to take lots of damage and keep going by simply making all weapons do less damage to zombies?

This means that this particular weapon does less damage to zombies, there are others that do more damage to them. There is no mention of "all weapons" in the post, so I have no idea from where you got that from. That's a big logic leap there Wink
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2010, 04:19:57 AM »

Quote
ZDamage: 40% (It only does 40% of normal damage against zombies, so not good for undead)

Does this mean that you guys have chosen to represent a zombie's ability to take lots of damage and keep going by simply making all weapons do less damage to zombies?

just think zombies doesn't feel pain as human, i don't think it bother zombie to lack an arm ^^


btw i was wondering that cause you said single handed weapon.

Does character will have a standard hand in which they don't have any negs and the other hand with negs (exept if folks are good both hand dunno the english word, in french it's ambidextre) ?

will it shows on the character sheet, what hand he's good at etc ?
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sporky
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« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2010, 08:18:14 AM »

Cool!  Approve I especially like the bleeding status. It makes sense and gives medical training a use.

It would make sense if you could both stab and slash with it, although with a higher chance to break with stab since I believe you are thinking of those stamped, flat steel kitchen knives. That image looks more like a hand-made chef's knife with a little more strength.

Will combat-type rambo knives have a stab attack?  

Will machetes, "sling-blades" and the inevitable pawn-shop katana have more of a use against zombies, due to their amputational utility? (<---I made up a word!)
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« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2010, 08:45:04 AM »

I like it Approve
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Wrath of Dagon
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« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2010, 10:37:59 AM »

I agree that knife looks a bit too sturdy for the common  kitchen knife. Looks like you'd have no problem stabbing with it. Would make more sense if the blade was long and slender.
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Fosse
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« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2010, 11:20:00 AM »

I agree that knife looks a bit too sturdy for the common  kitchen knife. Looks like you'd have no problem stabbing with it. Would make more sense if the blade was long and slender.
What is this being based on?  It "looks like" a common kitchen knife: 
http://www.google.com/images?q=kitchen+knife&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1372&bih=689

And they would make terrible fighting weapons.  The blades are brittle and wouldn't stand up to combat, regardless of how sturdy it appears.
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sporky
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« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2010, 12:14:41 PM »

That photo is representing a generic kitchen knife, and of course a more chisel-like combat knife would be better and hold up to multiple fights, but kitchen knives make great weapons. They are less brittle than flexible. Especially paring knives, those are nasty and super sharp. This is barring use of armor. But I would be confident of successfully stabbing someone through any clothing up to high-quality motorcycle jackets.
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« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2010, 12:45:11 PM »

Please, kids.  Do NOT try to test the sturdiness of your kitchen knife at home.  Otherwise this will happen to you:



Or worse!

Strength of a blade is how pure and how many folds the blade has, neither trait can be detected via a quick glance from the side.

Anyways, I love the plunge attack.  It gives me a reason to grab improvised weapon when i already have a go-to combat weapon in my inventory!   
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Wrath of Dagon
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« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2010, 12:46:43 PM »

Fosse's link confirms that the picture is a chef's knife, not a cheap stamped knife that the description suggests and you'd expect to break. Edit: It looks like an expensive knife, looking at the handle and the blade thickness, why would it be made of low quality brittle steel?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 12:49:59 PM by Wrath of Dagon » Logged

Secondly--MURDER? Merely because I had planned the duel and provoked the quarrel! Never had I heard anything so preposterous.
Brian
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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2010, 01:35:18 PM »

Quote
-All knives are one-handed weapons, which means there is no penalty to switch to them from other one-handed weapons.

What if the one handed weapon you are switching to isn't already in your other hand? (what if its in your pocket?)

Anything not in your secondary weapon slot would be in your inventory, so there would be an AP cost for digging through your inventory during combat. The nice thing about one-handed weapons is that if you have them as primary and secondary weapons, you can freely switch them back and forth in a combat situation without AP penalty.


Quote
Counter – Weapons with a counter ability have a chance to automatically initiate a basic attack when directly attacked by an enemy.
Do any guns have this? Perhaps ones with bayonets?

None of the guns have bayonets, nor do any guns counter. The melee person always has the advantage at close range if they use the right combo of armor and special attacks.


Quote
ZDamage: 40% (It only does 40% of normal damage against zombies, so not good for undead)

Does this mean that you guys have chosen to represent a zombie's ability to take lots of damage and keep going by simply making all weapons do less damage to zombies?
[/quote]
As Oscar pointed out, this particular weapon - and most knives - are terrible against zombies, since knives are designed to incapacitate or kill through puncture of organs or blood loss, which is not a factor for zombies.

Quote
PS: So players will not be able to 'stab' with a kitchen knife without destroying it?
Precisely - it breaks the knife, and it's most likely the kitchen knife (which is designed to slice up meat and vegetables) would break at the tip as soon as it hit a bone.

btw i was wondering that cause you said single handed weapon.

Does character will have a standard hand in which they don't have any negs and the other hand with negs (exept if folks are good both hand dunno the english word, in french it's ambidextre) ?

will it shows on the character sheet, what hand he's good at etc ?
No dominant hands, because there's no dual-wielding. If you switch from one-handed to one-handed, you're putting the new weapon in your dominant hand. Switching to two-handed puts the weapon in your dominant hand as well, but because it takes longer to ready the weapon, there's a slight penalty.

Cool!  Approve I especially like the bleeding status. It makes sense and gives medical training a use.

It would make sense if you could both stab and slash with it, although with a higher chance to break with stab since I believe you are thinking of those stamped, flat steel kitchen knives. That image looks more like a hand-made chef's knife with a little more strength.

Will combat-type rambo knives have a stab attack?  
Weapons will always be one type of damage. All knives do slashing damage.

Quote
Will machetes, "sling-blades" and the inevitable pawn-shop katana have more of a use against zombies, due to their amputational utility? (<---I made up a word!)
Blades are primarily going to be used to slash at enemies. It'd be nigh impossible in standard combat to take a head off with a normal machete, even for a master swordsman or whatever a master machete user is called. More likely it'd get stuck.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2010, 01:36:51 PM by Brian » Logged
Stanko
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« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2010, 02:12:30 PM »

Hello everybody!

First, I have to say a few words off topic. Brian, your writing in Bloodlines is awesome and I'm glad that now you can develop your own games the way you want it, without making compromises that are neccessary to sell a million copies of some blockbuster title.
Dead State looks very interesting and unique.

So, back on topic.. Does the strength contribute to damage caused by melee weapons, or is it merely a requirement for using it effectively?
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