[WCG]

One of the reasons that space-based SF tends to get a bit on the goofy side is that it's hard to imagine a consistent futuristic universe where humans still matter, which is kinda important for the whole narrative thing.

Not necessarily. All you really need is a breakthrough discovery in one particular technology - wormholes, hyperspace, or whatever you want to call it - and we're there. And it wouldn't even have to be OUR discovery. We could get it from a passing extraterrestrial.

With FTL travel - most plausibly, a way that simply bypasses normal space with its light-speed limitation - we could start exploring the stars right now. So human society wouldn't have to change much at all. This is science fiction, not science, but it's easy enough to accept as the premise for a game, wouldn't you say?

Humans are definitely too slow and too limited to matter in real space combat or maneuvering of the ships.

I agree. Dog-fighting in space has always seemed ridiculous to me. Humans - or other people - would maintain the ship, construct combat algorithms, and make the decisions about where to go and what to do, but in combat, you'd better hope that your equipment is up to the challenge.

Of course, I don't find space war very plausible in itself, since it would be way too easy to throw asteroids at a planet from a great distance and at a very high speed. But combat encounters between lone ships, either because of greed, fear, or simple mistake, would seem to be quite possible. Civilizations might be too aware of mutually-assured destruction for all-out war, but that wouldn't prevent all conflict.

Say you're an automated probe (because fast travel is impossible for organic beings...

For an RPG, though, that just sounds like the ultimate in power-gaming, where you don't even have the limitations of flesh and blood (not to mention emotions of any kind). Would you really like to play an "automated probe"? I guess I can't understand why.

Apart from that do you aim at  lite-science fiction fantasy like the idea of this thread is, or maybe you would consider doing a serious science fiction game? Something more modern and challenging.

You still haven't told us how you define "lite" and how you define "serious." First and foremost, a game has to be fun, but that doesn't mean it can't also be serious. Or do you define "serious" as being mundane SF (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mundane_science_fiction). There is plenty of "serious" science fiction outside of that sub-genre. It IS fiction, after all.

And I have absolutely no idea what you mean by "Something more modern and challenging." You mean another first-person shooter, like everyone else seems to be making these days? Personally, I don't care if a game is considered "modern" or not, as long as it's fun. And the "challenge" should be player-selectable, to some extent, since we all vary in capabilities and in what level of difficulty we find enjoyable.

For myself, I'd rather see a game that a player can make his own - not just plenty of options that he can set to customize the gameplay, but a game where he can make his own decisions, as much as possible. Yeah, I know, for many players, that's just code for "kill everyone in the game." But I wouldn't want anything so simplistic. I'd want a game that would most reward a clever and imaginative player. (You probably COULD try to kill everyone in the game, but there'd be consequences which would make it a foolish thing to do.)

[shihonage]

So, youre doing the "lite" one too. Fine.
I said fine!

What... does... this... mean... ??

serious science fiction game? Something more modern and challenging.

Examples ? Points ? Was Fallout a lite science fiction game ? What was a serious science fiction game ?

[Calego]

One of the reasons that space-based SF tends to get a bit on the goofy side is that it's hard to imagine a consistent futuristic universe where humans still matter, which is kinda important for the whole narrative thing.

Not necessarily. All you really need is a breakthrough discovery in one particular technology - wormholes, hyperspace, or whatever you want to call it - and we're there. And it wouldn't even have to be OUR discovery. We could get it from a passing extraterrestrial.

With FTL travel - most plausibly, a way that simply bypasses normal space with its light-speed limitation - we could start exploring the stars right now. So human society wouldn't have to change much at all. This is science fiction, not science, but it's easy enough to accept as the premise for a game, wouldn't you say?

Oh yeah, sure. That would work quite well. I didn't mean that it was an issue with SF in principle, just with many settings that have been created for games in the past. Like, I've been watching my roommate play Mass Effect 2 occasionally (hilarious game, I highly recommend an ironic take on it), and in that setting particularly, the ol' SF trope of technologically advanced civilizations still crewing their impractical ships with squishy organic weaklings is starting to grate.

That, and I really wish there was a party member who would say: "I hear that, Renegade!" whenever you use one of those popup actions.

[caster]

Woah,  sorry  about that i didnt get youre asking seriously guys.

Not to get on the wrong foot,  its kind of difficult to separate a kind of science fiction i would like to see because Sci-Fi as a name covers a lot of things.
Just generally speaking, by Lite science fiction i mean something on the level of various Star Treks and Star wars.
A fantasy adventure only in futuristic setting.
 
In such fiction the goal is to have fun, have adventures, follow how some hero overcomes some difficult situation  or beats some enemy, saves whatever and wins the girl. All the "science" is there only as a background, only there to serve the immediate plot needs of heroes.
Rarely is any technology or advancement something that is thought out, or something with consequences beyond some superficial ones.

In a way in such fiction science isnt important but "fiction" is.
Science is nothing more then "magic" in generic high fantasy setting. A convenient excuse for this and that.

And thats nothing so bad, apart from the sheer volume of stories, tv series, movies, games and comics of that kind that are produced daily.
Still, settings like that can be good, interesting, fun to play.

On the whole though... thats like saying "lets have another high fanatsy generic game " to me.  Instead of a Fallout.
Science fiction where science doesnt matter too much and where people are basically always the same except funny costumes, different types of fighter spaceships, funny costumes or color of hair. Or funny costumes.


On the other hand i would want to see science fiction game that would be inspired by more modern science fiction of a heavier caliber. Not just hard SF in terms of technological level, but stories dealing directly with sociological consequences, moral consequences and even more personal ones.
Like Blade Runner was personal. Like Neuromancer and his characters. Case, loosing himself without cyberspace, colonel Armitage - a mental construct with countdown time, Molly renting her body as flesh so she can buy the upgrades, or most of side characters.

I posted links to a few short stories in the second post on the first page that i consider very serious and about thousand times more imaginative and interesting and fun then usual high fantasy futuristic stuff that most people mean when they say Science fiction.

Stories like "Darwins Radio" by Greg Bear, or some of Stephen Baxter books, Stanislav Lem of the old ones or Ursula Leguin and her stories. Philip k Dick. Stories that are about people in most extraordinary circumstances where the world isnt the same anymore in  some profound way. A truly different world or reality instead of another hack and slash.
"Red Mars" trilogy by Kim S. Robinson on one side and Culture series from Iain M Banks on the other.
I could write examples for whole page but these will have to suffice.  

Of course, I don't find space war very plausible in itself, since it would be way too easy to throw asteroids at a planet from a great distance and at a very high speed. But combat encounters between lone ships, either because of greed, fear, or simple mistake, would seem to be quite possible. Civilizations might be too aware of mutually-assured destruction for all-out war, but that wouldn't prevent all conflict.

Thats not really true.
Your thinking in a wrong scope.

You imagine war between planets, between armies completely forgetting a private part of expanding into space, Corporations, cartels, renegade scientist, political loonies and New space communist party, or anarchists or miners or families living in a sociological experiment inside an asteroid.

You dont see any space in between planets as something that could matter. You have a ship, you travel from planet to planet and occasionally some space station.

Also flipping asteroids around isnt so easy. First, you need to accelerate one over long periods of time, several years, which would be clearly visible to anyone in the neighborhood, then even if you pushed it to hundreds of thousands of kilometers per hour its still takes years for it to reach the planet.

For an RPG, though, that just sounds like the ultimate in power-gaming, where you don't even have the limitations of flesh and blood (not to mention emotions of any kind). Would you really like to play an "automated probe"?

Actualy that would be a cool idea and nothing prevents you having emotions and dealing with your own psychological states while you travel empty wastes of space in between stars as you search and probe system after system.
Who says an AI wouldnt feel?

And limitations can come in a form of resources or energy saving requirements.

You can even make a game where you would play a Von Neuman probe trying to conquer the galaxy by making copies of itself.

And I have absolutely no idea what you mean by "Something more modern and challenging." You mean another first-person shooter, like everyone else seems to be making these days? Personally, I don't care if a game is considered "modern" or not, as long as it's fun. And the "challenge" should be player-selectable, to some extent, since we all vary in capabilities and in what level of difficulty we find enjoyable.

I meant a bit more stimulating examples of Science fiction that i mentioned above.
No i dont want a shooter - just the opposite. I would like a real Science fiction RPG game instead of  another action/adventure/fantasy masked in a futuristic setting.

What... does... this... mean... ??

Just a joke.

Examples ? Points ? Was Fallout a lite science fiction game ? What was a serious science fiction game ?

Example given above. Points pointed.
Fallout was actually in between lite and harder stuff. Its setup and main premise were simple but in effect, due to good writing, interesting NPCs and retro setting it would deliver many engaging moments on several levels.
It would make you think.

I didnt see a really serious science fiction game so far.

[shihonage]

Interesting post. So serious science fiction is basically "plausible" ?. It's like my friend, who reviews movies, has a gripe with the T-1000, because he says that "mimetic polyalloy" is hundreds of years ahead in technology from the T-800.

He also hates everything made by Joss Whedon, I suspect, for the same reason - because of the "lite" feel.

I'm familiar with works of Bradbury, Sheckley, Dick, Zelazny, Lem, Asimov... I think I sort of understand what you mean...

I guess its a combination of plausibility and "not blandly extending the preconceptions of today generically into tomorrow".

[caster]

No, plausibility is just a part of it and it varies, naturally from story to story, writer to writer.
The difference is the care with which it is done.  If its about technology then the consequences of it are thoroughly thought out and presented, bad and good, always through well developed characters.
If its about living in a different kind of reality or different place then those differences matter in a wide array of things.

If there is FTL flight then its consequences are reality within the story and often a part of the plot, of events.

Ursula Leguin has a whole series of stories where travel between stars is possible but time dilation always takes price so hundreds of years pass on the world you left. And still a sort of loose empire exist where explorers and officials sacrifice their lives and travel to other worlds, knowing they will never see any of their family or friends etc.

And the whole setting works. Infact its even more interesting in a way.


The real difference is the desire to expose a certain possibility and its consequences, Trthfully to the bets of our knowledge or  to talk about certain issue or human characteristic or weave a possible future as the main thing of it. Its purpose.

I mean, if youve read Lem then you can get what i mean.

Apart from those old timers there are many new writers putting out stories that are realistic, full of well developed characters, events that make sense, plots thought out in detail, settings that are truly impressive instead of being flashy lights and effects, where nothing is easy and where action makes sense when it happens and therefor is important rather then being filler or the purpose.

[WCG]

Not just hard SF in terms of technological level, but stories dealing directly with sociological consequences, moral consequences and even more personal ones.

OK, I understand what you mean, and even agree to a large extent. I'm a huge science fiction fan, and there are some incredible books that are both entertaining and powerfully thought-provoking. But what we usually see in movies is fantasy in space, often enough complete with some kind of pseudo-science "magic."

On the other hand, I'm not so sure that computer games can handle science fiction the way books - or even movies - can. Both of those are strictly linear, and an RPG must give a player SOME freedom of action. Plus, it's got to be entertaining. A computer game must be fun to play, above all else.

Certainly, as you say, serious SF is not just hard SF. It needs to seem plausible, but not necessarily to BE plausible. I mean, even in books, I can accept almost any premise, as long as the story follows logically from it. I definitely agree with you about stories that deal with "sociological consequences, moral consequences and even more personal ones." But those kinds of stories are hard to get in any medium. Yes, it would be wonderful, if it's possible to do in an entertaining computer game.

[caster]

Of course it can work and be entertaining and fun to play. More then usual fantasy in space.
Linearity of books has nothing to do with it. Its the concepts, the plots, ideas, setting that are important - not blindly following a specific plot from a book.

[Spyros]

Say you're an automated probe (because fast travel is impossible for organic beings...

For an RPG, though, that just sounds like the ultimate in power-gaming, where you don't even have the limitations of flesh and blood (not to mention emotions of any kind). Would you really like to play an "automated probe"? I guess I can't understand why.

Part of the gameplay could be about discovering emotions and learning different philosophies (or even religions) to give meaning, or not, to your artificial life. This would require some knowledge and skill from the designer, but a game with thought provoking content is nice from time to time. And it's what proper science-fiction is about anyway. As for powergaming, well, it's become (or always was?) a main component of any RPG. And people love it, it seems: D&D will have you dueling dragons and X3, which I just begun playing recently, is as much about building your fleet than exploring. And let's not forget the Diablos and their clones. The drive to build, or to become stronger, is probably almost universal.

For myself, I'd rather see a game that a player can make his own - not just plenty of options that he can set to customize the gameplay, but a game where he can make his own decisions, as much as possible. Yeah, I know, for many players, that's just code for "kill everyone in the game." But I wouldn't want anything so simplistic. I'd want a game that would most reward a clever and imaginative player. (You probably COULD try to kill everyone in the game, but there'd be consequences which would make it a foolish thing to do.)

I suspect, with your previous reference to Dwarf Fortress, that what you'd like is a pure sandbox game. Those seem super hard to make, and I might even say that interesting, original content (like multiple planets each having genuinely distinct flora and fauna) is even more difficult to generate procedurally. There *are*, however, space-based sandbox games out there (I'll mention X3 again, if you haven't played it yet). They're just not that rich. If you have any link to other efforts in that direction, I'm interested.

Of course it can work and be entertaining and fun to play. More then usual fantasy in space.

Well, fantasy in space *is* entertaining. Look at Star Trek, the adventures of the Enterprise really made me wonder. As a kid. The trick would be to have the magic of exploration and discovery while staying within reasonable bounds. I have no idea where to start however.


Also, I don't see the need for many planets to explore. Just a few (mankind just beginning its colonization efforts) might already make quite a vast world. There's already a series of bandes dessinées with that premise, which I already put in the comics thread but here's a link anyway: http://www.mondes-aldebaran.com/ (in french, I'm afraid).

(By the way, NASA has an unmaintained page on possible future propulsion technologies: http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/index.html. They do leave some hope for fast IST, but not much.)

Edit: typo.

[caster]

- Is it true that artificial life or some kind of digital mind would not have emotions?
We are too quick to make that assumption without even knowing what emotions are.

- I didnt say fantasy in space isnt entertaining. Sometimes it is.
My problem is that there is too much of it and virtually no games based on serious science fiction themes.

There are quite a few contemporary "Space opera" settings that are far from simplistic "hero beats the bad guys and saves the damsel" cheap anthropomorphic, anthropocentric settings and stories of old times.
Settings that incorporate many contemporary themes,  sociology, philosophy, genetics, biotechnology and so on. That deal with human personal themes as much as with "epic" space battles and whatnot.


"Culture" is a god given setting for a game, for example. It spans over millions of years enabling someone to freely choose a piece of it as a stage for a game without it intersecting with particular story from the books.

The nature of Special circumstances gives excellent opportunity for a player to be one of those Culture citizens that were suckered into some nefarious play of SC Minds - with all twists that usually entails.

So you can start fresh and "weak" freely choosing starting abilities then gaining technological or biotechnological upgrades as you complete assignments or missions.

Setting itself is rich enough to provide any kind of mission, be it "just exploring" or fighting or "diplomatic" assignments.

I could go on and on about this... but ill cut it short.


- Planets

I dont see any need for explorable planets.  Chances of finding a Earth like planet are astronomically small and if you do force several of them into the game all you get is pieces of familiar territory in different colors, things already known - and boring.
 
Reality on the other hand is much much more interesting.
Gas giants and their weird moons.
- completely different environments.
No atmosphere or ones that are poisonous. (perfect excuse for limits on explorable space)
Different gravity (changes gameplay significantly in each)

Asteroids.
-mining, bases, colonies, laboratories, scientific bases, corporate secluded bases with who knows what kind of shady experiments going on, small independent republics with different socio-political arrangements.
Each requiring new adaptations from the player.
Each posing completely different challenges.

Lagrange points - again possibilities of numerous different space bases or even cities.

Comets. Kuiper belt - mining, secluded laboratories, independent bases running genetical or biotechnological experiments, people or corporations trying to adapt humans to live in space directly or create life that can and all opportunities and possibilities that brings. Espionage, counter espionage, plots, conspiracies, sabotages, ... different sides to work for, against or anyway you can think off - really.

Struggle between corporations, nation states and independent groups - rebels. Or just individuals.
And you in the middle.

There is actually so much possibilities, interesting themes and places to investigate just in one system if you follow more realistic ideas or notions... that those usual fantasy spacey "epic" settings cant even compare.