[Gregorus Prime]

Snape kills Dumbledore.

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Snape kills Dumbledore.

DnD > Harry Potter

in DnD there would always be Shadow Shield to protect from death spells like this abracadabra thingie. This is a serious issue and we should discuss this in more detail. Why can't Dumbledore cast shadowshield. lame.

[Silellak]

Here's the ultimate question:

Will I spoil the game by reading this thread, or is it fairly spoiler free?

I would avoid it like the plague, personally.

[Nehan]

Snape kills Dumbledore.

good riddance.

[Sodomy]

Overall, while Dragon Age has flaws (which game doesn't?), it stands out in the role-playing department, surprising you with the type of deep role-playing design that we haven't seen since the Arcanum days.

Bullshit, for a couple of reasons.

1.  Very few "story branching" choices have any skill checks attached to them.  There's the ones you mention with the desire demon (although those are minor at best), and then there's one with Allistair in the late game (getting him to marry Anorra if you didn't toughen him up on his side quest), and there's one in the Brecilian Forest (need a persuasion check to get the elder to remove the werewolf curse).  Compare this to Mask of the Betrayer, where character skills are regularly used to guide major quests(lying to Kaelyn about your intentions, bluffing the caravan/little kid for the "devour soul" quest, and using Ravenous Incarnation on the founder and the final boss being a few examples).  Same thing in Mysteries of Westgate- multiple steps on the main quest have thieving solutions.  In a different series, Prelude to Darkness's "rebellion" path required that you have a wide range of non-combat skills, and quests with multiple solutions down that path had solutions that required different skills (example: joining quest, where you can be good at theft to take the artifact option, literacy and combat to take the ore option, or just morally bereft to take the "sell out Lloyd option"). Many of the Citadel faction quests were similar in this respect, requiring skills such as nature; furthermore, skills or lack thereof drastically changed the path through Jerrock (you can get out with no combat with a bit of thief skill, and no speech and no character with high str. to intimidate makes it far harder).  And finally, a game that's (wrongfully) frequently considered a lightweight in the C&C arena, Temple of Elemental Evil, has an endgame where your story options are limited by your ability to intimidate, be diplomatic, sense motives, and even search and spot.  Given that the single quality that sets an RPG apart from an adventure game with combat is that character skills determine the outcome of an action, this is quite a failing.

2.  No ability to choose larger goals.  Again, examples from each of the games above:
MotB should be obvious here.  You can sacrifice yourself to get rid of the curse forever.  You can pragmatically shake the curse off of yourself, letting it infect another.  Or, you can embrace the curse and become a god.  Also, you can choose to side with or against the Kelemvor followers.  Translation- both major plot arcs let you choose what your larger goal is.

MoW isn't as good about it as MotB is, but it still gives you the "turn into a vampire/don't" option, and lets you side with either Lathander or the thieves in the beginning.

PtD, admittedly, drops the ball here.  You WILL do the sacrifice and drive off the darkness.  Can't win 'em all.

ToEE, on the other hand, does excellently here (again, why the hell is this game considered to be a "simple dungeon crawl"?).  If you're an evil bastard who's only out for yourself, you can join Hedrack, and even cut the entire endgame in doing so.  If you're an evil bastard who's only out for yourself, but are a bit smarter and have pumped intimidate, you can control Zuggtmoy for yourself.  If you want to be a good guy, but aren't feeling particularly energetic/smart you can kill Zuggtmoy's physical form, solving the problem for now but leaving her to return later.  Or, if you're good, and have more brains than motivation, you can simply get rid of her "anchor" in this world.  Or, if you're really inspired, you can destroy her entirely and permanently.

Of course, this type of role playing is more common than the skill-based type described above, and there are no shortage of post-Arcanum games that do it.  Teudogar.  Geneforge series.  VTM:B.  Later games in the Avernum series (possibly old ones too, never played any of the older ones).  Gothic 3.  Even SoZ and the NWN 2 OC at the end.  Yet, in DA, you WILL kill the archdemon, and your only choice in the matter is whether you let Morrigan save your ass, or whether you let Allistair/Loghain take the bullet for you, or whether you sacrifice yourself.


As an aside, Bioware could have made a huge improvement quite easily- instead of going for the "dramatic" final battle in Denerim, instead, make the final battle in the post-blighted first city that you visit (I can't recall the name), and make it so that you can go there whenever you want, with whatever help you currently have.  Then, just don't level scale it in any way.  Wanna go there ASAP before gaining any allies?  Go for it, and prepare to die.  This would have cost NO extra development effort (and, actually, might have reduced it, since it wouldn't need the writing for the "epic" railroading), and would have greatly aided the non-linear feel.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I don't see any big improvements in DAO. It's basically KOTOR's resolve situation on 4 planets so you can proceed. May be the goal is a little more relevant to the situation but I don't see that as a big deal, I think KOTOR's implementation was better, less combat and combat itself broken up by other content instead of an endless slog.

Redcliffe and Mages Tower I liked better than Brecilian Forest and Orzammar, but I don't think Redcliffe has any more C&C than for example the two gang quest on Taris in KOTOR. You still have to save Earl Eamon as has been mentioned, so your choices are only minor variations as usual. Preparation for battle in Redcliffe is just an inferior rip-off of preparing to defend Dantooine in KOTOR2.

Orzammar in particular has a lot of wasted potential. I was hoping it would be about real political intrigue, instead of a simplistic pissing contest between two factions. My favorite quest is still Peragus in K2, where you really feel like you're unraveling a mystery of what happened. In Orzammer they had a chance to let you investigate and find out what happened to the royal family, and then use that to make your decision, and really give you a sense of agency. Instead you run errands for one faction or the other, the usual boring RPG stuff which takes away any feeling of the player advancing the plot on his own. Basically I agree with everything Fosse said on p 55 of the DAO thread.

[Vince]

I don't see any big improvements in DAO. It's basically KOTOR's resolve situation on 4 planets so you can proceed. May be the goal is a little more relevant to the situation but I don't see that as a big deal, I think KOTOR's implementation was better, less combat and combat itself broken up by other content instead of an endless slog.

The key difference is the implementation. It really is hard to find a better way to introduce a gameworld than to hand the player old treaties and send him to deal with different nations and groups. You have a reason to understand them, their problems, their beliefs, and then decide if the gameworld is better off with or without them. Don't like the elves? Trade them for the 'wolves. Think that the Circle is too restrictive. Use the given opportunity to wipe them out. A blood mage? Wipe both the Circle and the Templars. That's pretty good in my book.

As for KOTOR, which I didn't like, here is how I see it. Your goal on the first planet should have been to get the hell out, yet the game forces you to recover Bastila first, which forces you to jump through many linear hoops. To proceed you must:


- At the lower city entrance ask about going down until the guard mentions needing paperwork or being a guard.
- Then go to the apartments and rescue the person being attacked by Sith guards. Take the uniform from the Sith, wear the uniform to get into the Lower City.
- Then go to the Cantina and watch the scene with Mission and Zaalbar, then talk to them so they leave for the Bek base.
- Then go to the Hidden Bek base and talk to Gadon until you wind up going after the prototype accelerator.
- Then trade the Sith Uniform for the Undercity Papers when you ask about how to get into the Vulkar base.
- Then go to the Undercity and head to the sewers to find Mission. She won't help you until you agree to help her find Zaalbar.
- Then rescue Zaalbar.
- Go back to the force field generator and Mission will open it, because even your "open force fields" skills is maxed, you still can't do it without Mission.
- Then enter the base and kill everyone, until you reach the boss:

Light Side                           
- Kill everyone and take the accelerator, go back to Beks, agree to race

Dark Side
- Agree to kill the other guys (not that you give a damn), then agree to race.

- Then win the race and fight Brejik with Bastila's help, no matter what you did.
- Then talk to Canderous. It goes without saying that he ignores you until now.
- Then go get Canderous' droid because that's the only way to enter the military base, even if your "lockpick" skill is maxed and higher than the droid's skill.
- Then go inside kill a lot of people, do more linear stuff, and finally get the fuck outta Dodge.

I can't tell you how much I dislike this FF-like design. It's linear as fuck no matter what you do. The choice between the gangs is pointless because a) you don't care, you're on your way out anyway; b) is there any difference between the gangs? c) the planet will be blown up anyway; granted, you don't know it on the first playthrough, but you know on the second, which makes the choice pointless and purely cosmetic - do you want Light points or Dark points? More XP or less XP? Whose loot do you fancy more?

Let's say you kill everyone, does it mean you can take Bastila and go? No, you still have to race because racing is fun. Do I even have to go to the Vulkars' base? Can I just take my chance with the normal racer? No, I must have the prototype accelerator because I'm a cheater. Why do I need Mission, wookie, and the droid if I have the skills that should have let me open the force field and enter the military base? Why there is only one goddamn way to do everything? Why can't I convince the guard to let me down without the uniform or without the papers? Why can't I kill the fucker or bribe him? Etc.

There is a huge difference between KOTOR design and DA design. DA isn't a perfect game, but design-wise it blows KOTOR out of the water.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I don't see any big improvements in DAO. It's basically KOTOR's resolve situation on 4 planets so you can proceed. May be the goal is a little more relevant to the situation but I don't see that as a big deal, I think KOTOR's implementation was better, less combat and combat itself broken up by other content instead of an endless slog.

The key difference is the implementation. It really is hard to find a better way to introduce a gameworld than to hand the player old treaties and send him to deal with different nations and groups. You have a reason to understand them, their problems, their beliefs, and then decide if the gameworld is better off with or without them. Don't like the elves? Trade them for the 'wolves. Think that the Circle is too restrictive. Use the given opportunity to wipe them out. A blood mage? Wipe both the Circle and the Templars. That's pretty good in my book.

I don't really see the big advance of being able to wipe factions out, especially since you don't have a particularly good reason to do so, and the story doesn't change. In KOTOR you could wipe out the Sand people, and side with the slavers or the Wookies, and join the Sith, so I don't see much difference here. OK, in DAO you can select your allies, but K2 already did that, and I wasn't that impressed either.

As for KOTOR, which I didn't like, here is how I see it. Your goal on the first planet should have been to get the hell out, yet the game forces you to recover Bastila first, which forces you to jump through many linear hoops. To proceed you must:


- At the lower city entrance ask about going down until the guard mentions needing paperwork or being a guard.
- Then go to the apartments and rescue the person being attacked by Sith guards. Take the uniform from the Sith, wear the uniform to get into the Lower City.
- Then go to the Cantina and watch the scene with Mission and Zaalbar, then talk to them so they leave for the Bek base.
- Then go to the Hidden Bek base and talk to Gadon until you wind up going after the prototype accelerator.
- Then trade the Sith Uniform for the Undercity Papers when you ask about how to get into the Vulkar base.
- Then go to the Undercity and head to the sewers to find Mission. She won't help you until you agree to help her find Zaalbar.
- Then rescue Zaalbar.
- Go back to the force field generator and Mission will open it, because even your "open force fields" skills is maxed, you still can't do it without Mission.
- Then enter the base and kill everyone, until you reach the boss:

Light Side                           
- Kill everyone and take the accelerator, go back to Beks, agree to race

Dark Side
- Agree to kill the other guys (not that you give a damn), then agree to race.

- Then win the race and fight Brejik with Bastila's help, no matter what you did.
- Then talk to Canderous. It goes without saying that he ignores you until now.
- Then go get Canderous' droid because that's the only way to enter the military base, even if your "lockpick" skill is maxed and higher than the droid's skill.
- Then go inside kill a lot of people, do more linear stuff, and finally get the fuck outta Dodge.

I can't tell you how much I dislike this FF-like design. It's linear as fuck no matter what you do. The choice between the gangs is pointless because a) you don't care, you're on your way out anyway; b) is there any difference between the gangs? c) the planet will be blown up anyway; granted, you don't know it on the first playthrough, but you know on the second, which makes the choice pointless and purely cosmetic - do you want Light points or Dark points? More XP or less XP? Whose loot do you fancy more?

You have to look for Bastila because you can't get off the planet by yourself, just like you have to save Eamon.Bastila is plot critical just as Eamon is, nothing new here. What you call "many linear hoops" I call great gameplay, much more fun than hacking your way through endless mobs. And DAO is no less linear, just has less content.

Let's say you kill everyone, does it mean you can take Bastila and go? No, you still have to race because racing is fun. Do I even have to go to the Vulkars' base? Can I just take my chance with the normal racer? No, I must have the prototype accelerator because I'm a cheater. Why do I need Mission, wookie, and the droid if I have the skills that should have let me open the force field and enter the military base? Why there is only one goddamn way to do everything? Why can't I convince the guard to let me down without the uniform or without the papers? Why can't I kill the fucker or bribe him? Etc.

There is a huge difference between KOTOR design and DA design. DA isn't a perfect game, but design-wise it blows KOTOR out of the water.

I still haven't seen an example of that.

[Sodomy]

Yeah, it's terrible being forced into things that are ancillary to the task at hand.  Like being forced to find a paragon at the end of a long dungeon, because no matter which choice I made earlier, both Bhalen and Harrowmont want me to find her.  Or being forced to completely wipe out the organized crime group (again, no matter who you side with).  Because, you know, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to go into battle without a dwarven army, right?  Or being forced to let a sloth demon put me to sleep, because I'm forced to talk to it instead of fighting it.  Or not being possibly able to fight my way into Loghain's palace to kill him (or even being given the option to try), but instead, being forced to have some noble call a Landsmeet... which means I have to heal him... which means I have to find the ashes, which means being forced to do another long-ass dungeon. 

I haven't played KotoR, so I can't say how bad it is about this.  I can say that DA:O is significantly better than the other Bioware game I've played (that being BG2, which I quit during the third chapter).  But to say that it doesn't frequently railroad you through things that aren't exactly necessary to the task at hand would be false.

[Vince]

I don't really see the big advance of being able to wipe factions out, especially since you don't have a particularly good reason to do so, and the story doesn't change.

First, the story is a different matter. Not every choice can and should affect the story and all highly praised RPGs (Fallout, Arcanum, etc) prove that. As for your reasons, there could be plenty. From being a Blood mage who has an issue with the Circle's dogma to disliking elves on a personal level or perhaps thinking that the werewolves would make better allies.

You may argue that the same is true with two gangs in KOTOR, but the difference is that there is no difference between the gangs. We're told that one is good and the other one is bad. Also, unlike the main character in DA who's there to stay, your character in KOTOR is leaving and has no real reason to care about which gang would rule the undercity for the next 10 min.

In KOTOR you could wipe out the Sand people, and side with the slavers or the Wookies, and join the Sith, so I don't see much difference here.

You're not involved. You're just passing by. What may be a necessity in DA is a caprice in KOTOR. Besides, DA doesn't even force you to do these things: you can do what you signed up for in the forest (kill the werewolves), you can convince the werewolves to wipe out the elves, or you can help the werewolves to lift the curse. Now, let's compare to the sand people quest.

You need a map. Even though another character has it, the only way to get it is to visit the sand people. Sand people will gladly give it to you but they need vaporizers, so you have to go back and buy the damn vaporizers. Ta-da! Quest completed! The challenge is to go all the way back and spend some cash. Good design?

Killing them, which is absolutely pointless, is an artificial evil solution, which still requires you to go back and trade the chief's stick for the map. Now, if you at least were given an option to kill them and then force the chief to tell you where the map is, that would have been something. Not much, but something.

You have to look for Bastila because you can't get off the planet by yourself, just like you have to save Eamon. Bastila is plot critical just as Eamon is, nothing new here.

Why? We need Eamon because he's a lord and have enough weight to call the landsmeet and have people listen to him. Mind you, I think you should have been given an option to trade him for the cultists, but at least the logic is there. Now, tell me why do we need Bastila again? Its' been awhile since I've played the game, but if I recall correctly I did all the work, I saved her stupid ass, I made a deal (forced on me, of course) with Canderous, stormed the base, got the ship, shot down the interceptors. What was her role?

What you call "many linear hoops" I call great gameplay...

You'd have to explain this one.

[Wrath of Dagon]

It's made pretty clear in-game that the Hidden Becks are the good alternative, for one thing they're the only ones willing to talk first and then shoot. As far as who would be my allies, I didn't care since I assumed they'd be some advantage/disadvantage with each one.

I don't think the Sand people quest is as simple as you say. I think to get the peaceful resolution you have to be disguised and get HK-47 to translate, to get the map you have to free the Jawas. I don't see how the werewolf quest is much better, you just get 3 alternatives at the very end, to get to it you just hack your way through a long dungeon.

You don't need Bastila except that you don't know how to get off the planet, and your only chance is to find Bastila, since she's a Jedi so she has special knowledge. It's true you don't really need her in the end, since you've attracted Canderous' attention and he's the one who actually lets you off the planet, but he only notices because of your efforts to rescue Bastila. So if you want to say Arl Eamon makes more sense I'd have to agree, but there are problems here as well, like Loghaine has an entire army but he lets Eamon stay in Denerim, and why doesn't the huge Darkspawn army from the first battle just roll over Ferelden while you're making alliances?

As for jumping through linear hoops, doing quests is what I enjoy in RPG's, so long as I get the impression I'm advancing the plot, instead of running someone else's errands. Obviously it's possible to enjoy an adventure game without any choice at all, so I don't see what I have to explain here.

Edit: Killing the Sand people is not an artificially evil solution, since they're basically terrorists.

[Vince]

It's made pretty clear in-game that the Hidden Becks are the good alternative, for one thing they're the only ones willing to talk first and then shoot. As far as who would be my allies, I didn't care since I assumed they'd be some advantage/disadvantage with each one.

Assumed?

I don't think the Sand people quest is as simple as you say. I think to get the peaceful resolution you have to be disguised and get HK-47 to translate...

You can't enter the camp unless you wear the sand people robes, which you get the moment you step outside the port. So, you'll be disguised when you talk to them and it's made clear when you land that HK-47 is a translator so you better have him with you if you want to talk to local creatures.

...to get the map you have to free the Jawas.

Who are released when you bring the vaporators.

I don't see how the werewolf quest is much better, you just get 3 alternatives at the very end, to get to it you just hack your way through a long dungeon.

Sand people quest - buy them a gadget to make them happy or just kill them. If you buy them the gadget, they'll happily release the Jawas and give you the map you seek. Can it really get any more simple?

As for jumping through linear hoops, doing quests is what I enjoy in RPG's, so long as I get the impression I'm advancing the plot, instead of running someone else's errands. Obviously it's possible to enjoy an adventure game without any choice at all, so I don't see what I have to explain here.

I was just curious. No cause for alarm, officer.

Edit: Killing the Sand people is not an artificially evil solution, since they're basically terrorists.

How so? It's their planet, aint it? Human settlers had caused the water problems, which is what turned the locals into sand people and left them no choice but to steal and raid. Anyway, it's considered an evil solution because you get Dark points for it.

[Gregorus Prime]

I'd just like to point out that leaving Bastila behind was not an option because her Battle Meditation technique was pretty much the only thing keeping the Republic alive in all those major battles. She was also under orders to keep an eye on you due to her special bond with you.

Doesn't change what you pointed out about the quest design but plot-wise there's no conflict.

[Tuomas]

Battle Meditation, oh god. I had forgotten how badly they screwed up the setting.

[Gregorus Prime]

You say that like it was a good setting to begin with.

At any rate, KOTOR is leagues better than anything Lucas has made himself in over twenty years.